Prayer's Needed.. Why??

[CRUE CAB]

How is solace to be found when you pray for the person's recovery and they end up dying anyway? "oh it was god's will, just accept it." Quite the mental gymnastics. If we're to accept god's will then we have no reason to pray. Just let him do what he wants

Who are you to tell others how to hold their faith?

 

[CRUE CAB]

why dose it take gall to question prayer?

Does? It galling to ask why people pray for loved ones in a time of need. If you are so dense as to have to ask, you really don't deserve an answer.

 

[chromium]

Who are you to tell others how to hold their faith?

i'm not telling anyone to do anything. Laughing at them is another matter

 

[CRUE CAB]

I disagree. One can be a success as a human without resorting to superstition. My youngest daughter was born with an undiagnosed tumour on her brain stem. This came to light when she was seven and needed an emergency ten hour operation. I did not pray or seek spiritual help. Her life was saved by a team of dedicated surgeons, not by an imaginary being. If any believers suggest that god helped the surgeons to save her I would counter by asking why god gave a fetus brain cancer in the first place.

I don't speak for God. So I cant tell you how to counter. Glad it worked out for you and your daughter, but some find relief in prayer.
Is it really someone else's place to question that? I think not.

 

[CRUE CAB]

i'm not telling anyone to do anything. Laughing at them is another matter

Which I am sure you do from a safe distance or on line.

 

[CRUE CAB]

That is not at all what I implied. I perfectly understand why people pray for loved ones when they feel powerless to help. That is not the question. The question is why would a loving and compassionate God not be motivated to help simply by seeing someone suffer, but rather would need a bunch of people to beg and plead with him to motivate him to intercede and heal that person?

Its not Gods job to intervene in human life all day every day.

 

[chromium]

Which I am sure you do from a safe distance or on line.

Why wouldn't i? Can tell they're barely about to cope with criticism online. I can see them break down in tears if anyone dared to suggest to their face that prayer is useless

Also, no one here ever talks about prayer. It's seen as superstition at best

 

[Econ4every1]

Just like how there is nothing that prevents the Earth from simply pretending that it has gravitational mass.

Yet there is evidence for it.

If you say so. Meanwhile the real world doesn't cater to your wants and desires.

Nope and I never suggested that it did, just that it can be predictability measured. So when I claim that an object, sayyyyy....Has mass, I can demonstrate how I arrived at that conclusion and tell you how I came to it so that you can do the test yourself, and if I'm right the evidence that I'm correct is in the fact that if you (or I) did the test correctly, then we should get the same result.

So is there a falsifiable test that I can do to offer evidence to the fact that god is;

1. Exists.
2. If he exists is good as you claim.

I'll wait while you think one up, but I suspect I'll be disappointed and you'll instead come up with another answer that has little to do with what I asked or worse, you'll give me another unfalsifiable claim and pass it off as if it is truth beyond question.

Now you may be tempted to find some meaningless unverifiable concept that most people hold as true and then try to equate that with the truth of your claim (regarding god), but remember, not all truths have the same consequences, those with greater consequences require greater amounts of evidence.

 

[zyzygy]

I don't speak for God. So I cant tell you how to counter. Glad it worked out for you and your daughter, but some find relief in prayer.
Is it really someone else's place to question that? I think not.

I'm not questioning it. I am simply saying that it has no practical purpose. It may make a person feel better, but that's about it.

 

[zyzygy]

Its not Gods job to intervene in human life all day every day.

Why not? I thought that was the general idea.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Why not? I thought that was the general idea.

Nope.

 

[Visbek]

No it's not a zero-sum game, but some goods are incompatible with others.

Why would an omnipotent deity be limited by human concepts of incompatibility?

For instance, God may decide to give one the good of entering into Heaven, now. And another the good of continuing to be alive.

Uh huh. You do realize that your claim here is categorically unfalsifiable?

Using your formulation, ANY outcome can be attributed to divine agency. If a devout young adult develops cancer, and her congregation sincerely prays for her recovery, either outcome is classified as the "will of God." If she survives, it's because the deity wanted her to survive, and intercessory prayer works! If she dies, it's because the deity wanted her dead (something that's evil when humans do it, but OK if the deity does it, no matter where the person's alleged soul ends up....). If she spends a lifetime suffering, it's because the deity wanted her to suffer (but that still doesn't prove that the deity is evil).

Allow me to demonstrate the problem of proposing unfalsifiable beliefs.

Let's hypothesize that there is a creator-deity which generated the entire universe. This deity does not actually care about the existence or life of any organisms, and on a whim creates a demiurge -- a less-powerful deity that is still capable of creating humans, populating them on a planet, and influencing natural events and diseases and even individual human choices. The demiurge is given a completely free hand over the Earth. How can we, as limited humans, ever know if any supernatural events we observe are attributable to creator-deity, instead of the demiurge? What if the demiurge represents itself as the supreme power on Earth? What if Moses was receiving instructions from the demiurge, instead of the creator-god? What if it lied when it convinced Christians that they would be judged in the afterlife -- and that there is no afterlife, no souls, no angels?

The demiurge theory is unfalsifiable. It is impossible to disprove, because I can simply attribute any proof you have, including subjective feelings of faith or supernatural events, to the deceptive demiurge.

Prayers can be assigned as the cause of God's choice since it is also a good to have one's will fulfilled, thus intercession through the virtuous act of prayer can be "grounds" for God granting one good as opposed to another.

Again, this doesn't make sense, and is unfalsifiable.

Surely you recognize cases where faithful and devout people make sincere intercessory prayers, asking nothing for their own benefit and hoping the deity will save an ill person -- and the person dies anyway. The prayer is virtuous, but is not rewarded. Why is that disqualified as proof that intercessory prayer does not actually work? Or that the supplicant's deity doesn't exist?

What if the recipient of the request is saved not by a divine intervention, but by a human who makes a free choice that winds up saving that person's life? Let's say I had a huge fight with my sister 10 years ago, and she develops a serious illness that requires a bone marrow transplant. In theory, I should have radical free will, and can choose to save her, or choose to let her take her chances finding another compatible donor, without any supernatural entity influencing my decisions.

If I make a free choice to donate the bone marrow, is that attributable to divine powers? Is the deity reaching into my brain, and making me perform this virtuous act? Do I still get ethical credit for it? Is it a problem if the deity makes me do it, yet people credit me personally as virtuous?

Also, you are not God, so the analogy fails.

And yet, the problem of theodicy remains.

If you posit that your deity is omnipotent, omniscient and the ultimate creator, those properties entail that the deity made a deliberate choice to create pain, suffering and evil. There was no requirement for the deity to do so, because there is nothing to impose any such requirements on the deity. Nothing prevented the creator-deity from making a universe in which humans could experience happiness without feeling sadness, pleasure without feeling pain, or be ethical at all times.

Even in granting humans free will, the creator-deity would be setting the parameters of the actions available. The deity could have easily made "drown your child" as inconceivable to humans as "six-sided rectangles."

You can claim that the deity's choices and/or nature are inconceivable, and we cannot apply human standards to it. But if that's the case, then you also lose the ability to describe the deity as benevolent, because that is also an act of applying human standards. You cannot simultaneously declare your deity to be both indescribable by humans and apply human standards to it. Invoking that argument is, at best, a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[VanceMack]

Perhaps because people have the desire and need for human association and compassion as well as spiritual connection, especially when they are going through trying times. Why do you go to a funeral viewing after someones death?

 

[Visbek]

I've had an experience of praying for a dying cat. It's only a cat - and yet her sudden recovery was almost an instantaneous miracle....

If your cat died, would that jeopardize your faith in prayer? Or your faith in the deity?

If someone prays sincerely and diligently and altruistically, and the prayer is not answered, is that justification to terminate one's belief in either prayer or the deity?

 

[VanceMack]

i'm not telling anyone to do anything. Laughing at them is another matter

Certainly speaks volumes of you.

RE the OP...I've always thought it a far better question to ask what it is about the lives of some people that they feel so much intense hatred of others and their beliefs? When looking at those truly pitiful types...its not hard to see who is in greatest need of prayers of compassion.

 

[chromium]

Certainly speaks volumes of you.

RE the OP...I've always thought it a far better question to ask what it is about the lives of some people that they feel so much intense hatred of others and their beliefs? When looking at those truly pitiful types...its not hard to see who is in greatest need of prayers of compassion.

It speaks volumes of YOU that you took what i said, or what the OP said, and infer "intense hatred."

No, it's kinda like when you see a retarded kid acting out (like forrest gump when he'd go "durrrrr durrr") and have to stifle a laugh, but you also pity the kid.

 

[zyzygy]

Nope.

Why is that?

 

[VanceMack]

It speaks volumes of YOU that you took what i said, or what the OP said, and infer "intense hatred."

No, it's kinda like when you see a retarded kid acting out (like forrest gump when he'd go "durrrrr durrr") and have to stifle a laugh, but you also pity the kid.

Exactly what I said. I pity you.

 

[Hard Truth]

It was a news that a 4 year old in the area died of brain cancer. I guess this 4 year old got what he deserved, just didn't pray right, according to logicman

More likely you weren't living right.

The four year old's family either didn't pray properly or the kid was an unrepentant sinner. He didn't deserve to live. Religion sure is comforting.

 

[Logicman]

Well that certainly explains why the religious blindly follow a book of fables. You accept this nonsense story as gospel truth and can't even muster up the skepticism to realize if god really wanted to intervene, he could've made ALL the officers bulletproof, or at least saw to it that washington's side had won the battle.

You also fail to explain why this god should side with one christian faction over another - presumably enabling washington to survive so that he could defeat the christian british troops later.

What a load of godless drivel.

 

[Logicman]

The four year old's family either didn't pray properly or the kid was an unrepentant sinner. He didn't deserve to live. Religion sure is comforting.

Pretty sure you'll have a whole different outlook on that at your Judgment.

 

[whysoserious]

Pretty sure you'll have a whole different outlook on that at your Judgment.

This is why it's hard for everyone else to take super-religious people seriously. In your eyes, you're dealt a royal flush every hand, so why bother even coming to the table?

Why don't you save the judging for yourself?

 

[zyzygy]

If there is a judgement then I do not fear it. God created me as an atheist so he has nothing to complain about. Plus members of other religions will be safe too because he created the religions and the people who believed in them. Nothing to worry about.

 

[zyzygy]

This is why it's hard for everyone else to take super-religious people seriously. In your eyes, you're dealt a royal flush every hand, so why bother even coming to the table?

Why don't you save the judging for yourself?

If Logicman has ever ripped any cloth in his life then he is in trouble. The bible says that is a no-no.

 

[Paleocon]

Why would an omnipotent deity be limited by human concepts of incompatibility?

That humans can understand something does not make it a "human concept". Omnipotence means the power to do anything possible, not the power to do things which are inherently impossible.

Uh huh. You do realize that your claim here is categorically unfalsifiable?

Metaphysical claims are proven through logic rather than evidence, thus the standards of the physical sciences are inapplicable. Also note that God's existence is not the topic here.

Using your formulation, ANY outcome can be attributed to divine agency. If a devout young adult develops cancer, and her congregation sincerely prays for her recovery, either outcome is classified as the "will of God." If she survives, it's because the deity wanted her to survive, and intercessory prayer works! If she dies, it's because the deity wanted her dead (something that's evil when humans do it, but OK if the deity does it, no matter where the person's alleged soul ends up....). If she spends a lifetime suffering, it's because the deity wanted her to suffer (but that still doesn't prove that the deity is evil).

The efficacy of prayer is not the argument for God existing.

And yes, any result is attributable to God.

Allow me to demonstrate the problem of proposing unfalsifiable beliefs.

Let's hypothesize that there is a creator-deity which generated the entire universe. This deity does not actually care about the existence or life of any organisms, and on a whim creates a demiurge -- a less-powerful deity that is still capable of creating humans, populating them on a planet, and influencing natural events and diseases and even individual human choices. The demiurge is given a completely free hand over the Earth. How can we, as limited humans, ever know if any supernatural events we observe are attributable to creator-deity, instead of the demiurge? What if the demiurge represents itself as the supreme power on Earth? What if Moses was receiving instructions from the demiurge, instead of the creator-god? What if it lied when it convinced Christians that they would be judged in the afterlife -- and that there is no afterlife, no souls, no angels?

The demiurge theory is unfalsifiable. It is impossible to disprove, because I can simply attribute any proof you have, including subjective feelings of faith or supernatural events, to the deceptive demiurge.

Is this demiurge omnipotent? If so then how us he a separate being than God? Or is he powerful in the way we are, but infinitely so? This would be impossible, as such countable infinities do not exist in actual reality. Is he a very powerful, yet finite being, who has the power of creation per se? In this case, he would be able to repetitively create things, to the point that he could create without effective limit, thus he would not actually be finite in power, which runs into the earlier problem.

Again, this doesn't make sense, and is unfalsifiable.

Surely you recognize cases where faithful and devout people make sincere intercessory prayers, asking nothing for their own benefit and hoping the deity will save an ill person -- and the person dies anyway. The prayer is virtuous, but is not rewarded. Why is that disqualified as proof that intercessory prayer does not actually work? Or that the supplicant's deity doesn't exist?

Prayer can result in the prayed for result being effected, not will so result. Of course, all virtuous acts will be rewarded, but not all by the granting of prayers.

What if the recipient of the request is saved not by a divine intervention, but by a human who makes a free choice that winds up saving that person's life? Let's say I had a huge fight with my sister 10 years ago, and she develops a serious illness that requires a bone marrow transplant. In theory, I should have radical free will, and can choose to save her, or choose to let her take her chances finding another compatible donor, without any supernatural entity influencing my decisions.

If I make a free choice to donate the bone marrow, is that attributable to divine powers? Is the deity reaching into my brain, and making me perform this virtuous act? Do I still get ethical credit for it? Is it a problem if the deity makes me do it, yet people credit me personally as virtuous?

God can of course provide a person with efficacious grace to move their will to choose a good act. A person can also choose naturally good acts, and thus acquire natural virtue, by the movement of their own intellect. However, a person can only acquire supernatural virtue (virtue that saves) by the prompting of God. Note that when God provides the grace for an act, the person still freely chooses it.