Power Grids Vulnerable

[MaggieD]

Down and dirty summary of last year's attack on a PG&E substation:

The incident began when intruders lifted heavy manhole covers at about 1:30 a.m. in two places on Monterey Highway south of San Jose, climbed under the road, and cut AT&T fiber optic cables, temporarily knocking out 911 service and phone service.
In a 19-minute period, gunmen fired more than 100 rounds into substation equipment, disabling 17 of 20 big transformers, causing about $16 million in damage, according to The Wall Street Journal. No arrests have been made in the case.

The FBI says it wasn't a terrorist attack. However:

However, Jon Wellinghoff, chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission at the time, called it "the most significant incident of domestic terrorism involving the U.S. power grid that has ever occurred."

It's pretty obvious to a blind man that this wasn't ordinary vandalism.

Someone with tons of knowledge about our power grid told me that three snipers acting simultaneously and knowing what they were doing could put the entire United States "off the grid" for months.

Are we fiddling while Rome burns?

 

[Carjosse]

Wouldn't there be alarms going off of some kind? Do those power plants have no security detail?

 

[cpwill]

Down and dirty summary of last year's attack on a PG&E substation:

The FBI says it wasn't a terrorist attack. However:

It's pretty obvious to a blind man that this wasn't ordinary vandalism.

Someone with tons of knowledge about our power grid told me that three snipers acting simultaneously and knowing what they were doing could put the entire United States "off the grid" for months.

Are we fiddling while Rome burns?

1. I would... well, I never really took part in the Critical Infrastructure Program, but I would be doubtful of the "three snipers" claim.
2. However, if the grid goes down for months, the unfortunate fact is that probably more than half of the U.S. population will die.

 

[joG]

Down and dirty summary of last year's attack on a PG&E substation:



The FBI says it wasn't a terrorist attack. However:



It's pretty obvious to a blind man that this wasn't ordinary vandalism.

Someone with tons of knowledge about our power grid told me that three snipers acting simultaneously and knowing what they were doing could put the entire United States "off the grid" for months.

Are we fiddling while Rome burns?

I often have the feeling that less fiddling might stand us quite well right now. And I am afraid that the power grid is not our only issue.

 

[azgreg]

1. I would... well, I never really took part in the Critical Infrastructure Program, but I would be doubtful of the "three snipers" claim.
2. However, if the grid goes down for months, the unfortunate fact is that probably more than half of the U.S. population will die.

Half? Good thing I was a scout.

 

[MMC]

I often have the feeling that less fiddling might stand us quite well right now. And I am afraid that the power grid is not our only issue.

I would agree.....Fresh Water would be another. Also playing into Cyber terrorism with the Computer technology that regulates infrastructure. Such as Natural gas and their facilities being vulnerable.

 

[notquiteright]

Down and dirty summary of last year's attack on a PG&E substation: The FBI says it wasn't a terrorist attack. However: It's pretty obvious to a blind man that this wasn't ordinary vandalism. Someone with tons of knowledge about our power grid told me that three snipers acting simultaneously and knowing what they were doing could put the entire United States "off the grid" for months. Are we fiddling while Rome burns?

It wasn't ordinary vandalism, it was extraordinary vandalism.

Those substations are located away from people when possible so there are thousands of such stations across the more rural parts of the USofA. My money is on a couple of drunks and a pistol. The muzzle flash seen in the security video looks like a typical pistol 'spit'.

Dunno who the 'tons of knowledge' guy is, but he sure has tons of smoke to blow up people's butts. :roll:

One of my cousins works as a line supervisor for OG&E in Northwest Ok. Three 'snipers' are not going to do much but get some Union workers pricey overtime.

The threat would be cyber, shutting down the control system of some of the grids. If the safety features remote of computer control can't shut down fast enough lots of equipment can fry and the on hand supply of replacements- transformers and switching controls- could be too low to speedily replace the damaged ones and thus cause discomfort in a region/season of high use.

We have left the age of mechanical vulnerability and entered the brave new world of cyber crises.

I can see how the Energy Wonk would call it terrorism, these days seems everything above a increasing lowering threshold is called terrorism... eace

 

[MMC]

1. I would... well, I never really took part in the Critical Infrastructure Program, but I would be doubtful of the "three snipers" claim.
2. However, if the grid goes down for months, the unfortunate fact is that probably more than half of the U.S. population will die.

Heya CPW. :2wave: Do you think they were just embellishing on the point that it wouldn't take many at all to cripple areas of the country.....especially those with large Populations?

Shouldn't all feel nice safe and cozy here at home? We have all these Governmental agencies that will always catch the bad guys, Right? Hell, were so good that we catch them before they even finish their own plans. Gubermint cud is good for everybody. :roll:

Course any worrying about such threats or those getting into the country.....just always seem to be blowing smoke over any old thing, huh? Ever notice those excusings for the musings? :lol:

I mean its not like AQ or others can get inside the US.....we just have to worry about who they turn. Don't ya think?

Exclusive: US May Have Let 'Dozens' of Terrorists Into Country As Refugees
Nov. 20, 2013
QUANTICO, Virginia

Several dozen suspected terrorist bombmakers, including some believed to have targeted American troops, may have mistakenly been allowed to move to the United States as war refugees, according to FBI agents investigating the remnants of roadside bombs recovered from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The discovery in 2009 of two al Qaeda-Iraq terrorists living as refugees in Bowling Green, Kentucky -- who later admitted in court that they'd attacked U.S. soldiers in Iraq -- prompted the bureau to assign hundreds of specialists to an around-the-clock effort aimed at checking its archive of 100,000 improvised explosive devices collected in the war zones, known as IEDs, for other suspected terrorists' fingerprints.

"We are currently supporting dozens of current counter-terrorism investigations like that," FBI Agent Gregory Carl, director of the Terrorist Explosive Device Analytical Center (TEDAC), said in an ABC News interview to be broadcast tonight on ABC News' "World News with Diane Sawyer" and "Nightline".

"I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more than that," said House Committee on Homeland Security Chairman Michael McCaul. "And these are trained terrorists in the art of bombmaking that are inside the United States; and quite frankly, from a homeland security perspective, that really concerns me."

As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011, federal officials told ABC News.....snip~

Al Qaeda in Kentucky: US May Have Let 'Dozens' of Terrorists Into Country as Refugees - ABC News

Dozens.....huh? I wonder.....do you think it matters if they are Bakers Dozens. Or just the regular carton. :mrgreen:

 

[DaveFagan]

Down and dirty summary of last year's attack on a PG&E substation:



The FBI says it wasn't a terrorist attack. However:



It's pretty obvious to a blind man that this wasn't ordinary vandalism.

Someone with tons of knowledge about our power grid told me that three snipers acting simultaneously and knowing what they were doing could put the entire United States "off the grid" for months.

Are we fiddling while Rome burns?

If we had completely switched to Renewable Energy, we would not be having this problem. The Monopolistic Utilities have prevented, legislated, stalled, roadblocked and harassed Renewables to protect their lucrative profit streams and it's going to bite them. The sooner the better. That would be my way to fight this type of terrorism.

 

[cpwill]

If we had completely switched to Renewable Energy, we would not be having this problem.

That is correct. We would be dealing with other problems instead, such as how to deal with the mass collapse of the global economy, and millions of people either starving or freezing to death over the winter.

But hey, we wouldn't have to worry about dangerous manhole covers. FTW!

 

[cpwill]

Half? Good thing I was a scout.

In a collapse scenario, behind starvation, dehydration, the elements, and disease, is a pretty serious danger called "bands of other people who have gone feral". If you are doing well, I would recommend doing so in a low-key manner.

 

[DaveFagan]

That is correct. We would be dealing with other problems instead, such as how to deal with the mass collapse of the global economy, and millions of people either starving or freezing to death over the winter.

But hey, we wouldn't have to worry about dangerous manhole covers. FTW!

I'd like to see your links to give any believability to those statements. Renewable Energy makes jobs at local levels. Then the citizens save money that would have left their community and spend those monies in their community. Twice blessed. Then locals repair those Renewables for more local jobs, thrice blessed. Of course, Duke Energy, PG&E, OG&E don't get their multi million dollar bonuses, a real bummer, eh?

 

[joko104]

Even though it is permanently closed (thankfully), the old nuclear power plant that has been offline now due to a crack in the containment unit (that will cost $1.6 BILLION to fully decommission and about 20 years!) - still has machine gun armed security at the facility - both land and water. The location also has 4 functioning coal fired power plants.

While there is that much security at the location, just a couple miles down the road is a main power open-air transformer complex that has no security whatsoever and is even a popular hunting area. A person with an ordinary M1A .308 rifle could take out every transformer probably in under 1 minute - knocking out power to the whole region.

There isn't any real way to protect "the grid" without a massive security force. But the whole country is vulnerable that way. For example, that massive natural gas barges in the Northeast. A simple RPG into one of those tanks would be like a tactical nuke going off in one of the most populous areas of the country. I would guess that poisoning a major water supply or food processing company's product wouldn't be that great a challenge either.

 

[cpwill]

I'd like to see your links to give any believability to those statements. Renewable Energy makes jobs at local levels.

Yes, and does not produce nearly the energy for the inputs as gasoline,natural gas, coal, etc; which is why we do not use them. "Local Jobs" (which aren't necessarily going to be positive net - for every solar panel repairman you lose gas station attendants, drivers, etc) aren't going to magically make the northeast an effective place to put solar panels, or Iowa a geothermic panacea. As the price of energy skyrockets and the supply plummets, you will absolutely get those effects. Dramatically increasing the cost of energy wrecks commerce, as it makes it increasingly difficult to conduct trade at profit. The vast majority of Americans and American jobs are not prepared for an economy where energy becomes prohibitively expensive, or, as the President puts it, "necessarily skyrockets".

 

[DaveFagan]

Yes, and does not produce nearly the energy for the inputs as gasoline,natural gas, coal, etc; which is why we do not use them. "Local Jobs" (which aren't necessarily going to be positive net - for every solar panel repairman you lose gas station attendants, drivers, etc) aren't going to magically make the northeast an effective place to put solar panels, or Iowa a geothermic panacea. As the price of energy skyrockets and the supply plummets, you will absolutely get those effects. Dramatically increasing the cost of energy wrecks commerce, as it makes it increasingly difficult to conduct trade at profit. The vast majority of Americans and American jobs are not prepared for an economy where energy becomes prohibitively expensive, or, as the President puts it, "necessarily skyrockets".

Since you are a cheerleader for continued Global Warming, I will post a quote from another post. You want/encourage/cheerlead for high density energy and that is what causes Global Warming. One can mitigate against Global Warming and make jobs and boost local economies by adopting 100% Renewable Energy. It solves many problems simultaneously or you can take the shortsighted approach to the future.

""How about a little relativity. The atmosphere relates in size to the Earth as do the bumps on a Florida orange (Florida because thin skinned, least bumpy). Your own minute significance is relatively minuscule by a similar comparison. We zip through space at 50,000 mph and a surface rotational velocity just over 1,000 mph and our ball is like a target in an infinite pinball game. We are one minute galaxy among myriads and we know not the limits. All that is just in the 400-700 wavelength of the electromagnetic spectrum, ergo there is a whole lot going on that we can't even envision, except with imagination. Back to the lumps on the orange and we fill the lumps with carbon, co2, methane, fluorocarbons, We have buildings 10% as high as the usable atmosphere and the scale should start getting clear. I can only suggest you ponder what Mark Twain said a long time ago, "If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." I think the same goes for the Internet. "

 

[cpwill]

Since you are a cheerleader for continued Global Warming

Not really - although if we open up much of northern Asia and Canada and turn it into arable farmland, well, that won't be terrible.

You want/encourage/cheerlead for high density energy and that is what causes Global Warming.

It also allows us to sustain our lifestyles, on which many in the First World have become dependent.

One can mitigate against Global Warming and make jobs and boost local economies by adopting 100% Renewable Energy.

Sure. You would create a global economic collapse resulting in probably millions of deaths by doing so, but if you are willing to pay that price in order to "mitigate against global warming", then feel free to advocate your cause.

It solves many problems simultaneously or you can take the shortsighted approach to the future.

Nah. I'd rather deal with any anthropogenic effects in the future (which will be mitigatable, especially as technology improves) than end the Western World as we know it now.

 

[DaveFagan]

Not really - although if we open up much of northern Asia and Canada and turn it into arable farmland, well, that won't be terrible.



It also allows us to sustain our lifestyles, on which many in the First World have become dependent.



Sure. You would create a global economic collapse resulting in probably millions of deaths by doing so, but if you are willing to pay that price in order to "mitigate against global warming", then feel free to advocate your cause.



Nah. I'd rather deal with any anthropogenic effects in the future (which will be mitigatable, especially as technology improves) than end the Western World as we know it now.

"Sure. You would create a global economic collapse resulting in probably millions of deaths by doing so, but if you are willing to pay that price in order to "mitigate against global warming", then feel free to advocate your cause."

I would like to see the link/links to prove the bolded statement. You are stating that Renewable Energy will cause probably millions of deaths. Support it. I proffer that the opposite is true and it will save millions of lives.

 

[cpwill]

I would like to see the link/links to prove the bolded statement. You are stating that Renewable Energy will cause probably millions of deaths.

No. I am stating that enforcing a switch to renewable energy, with current technology, would probably cause a global economic collapse followed by millions of deaths.

Support it. I proffer that the opposite is true and it will save millions of lives.

:shrug: support it. Show me where solar panels will warm people currently in snow in the North East as effectively as coal, natural gas, and gasoline. Demonstrate to me the clean energy fuel that is both cheap and widely available enough to replace gasoline for moving our goods. Demonstrate to me where we are going to replace the power we get from non-renewable sources at the same price.

Because there is a reason why even Europe is starting to turn it's back on Green Energy Unicorns - and it is because (at yet) they do not work as well as traditional sources of fuel.

Hell, how are you going to replace just shipping industry that we require to feed cities?

 

[joko104]

As you two wander of on something totally irrelevant to this story, it appears exactly no one including the media are asking other questions.

For example, this shows how little we know and that the government only tells us what they want us to know. This happened 9 MONTHS ago. Ever hear of it before? Total news blackout by the government of an event this significant?

It was a very planned out attack. I didn't read that anyone has been arrested and exactly not one word of even any attempt to do so. Not a word on suspects. Nor a word of FBI actions or investigations. Not a hint of motive other than "not terrorists." ???? So the conclusion of the investigation is a one liner "not"?

This is something the government did not want publicized. And when it did come out, more is not total than told. For all we know, a massive outbreak of avian flu began 3 months ago or terrorists have stolen a stockpile of nuclear power plant wastes or contagious biological diseases was stolen in a raid on a laboratory - and one thing we know is the government would not tell us unless they wanted to.

Since police records are public and the press generally listens to police radio and looks at police logs, how did this remain secret for 8 MONTHS?!

 

[DaveFagan]

As you two wander of on something totally irrelevant to this story, it appears exactly no one including the media are asking other questions.

For example, this shows how little we know and that the government only tells us what they want us to know. This happened 9 MONTHS ago. Ever hear of it before? Total news blackout by the government of an event this significant?

It was a very planned out attack. I didn't read that anyone has been arrested and exactly not one word of even any attempt to do so. Not a word on suspects. Nor a word of FBI actions or investigations. Not a hint of motive other than "not terrorists." ???? So the conclusion of the investigation is a one liner "not"?

This is something the government did not want publicized. And when it did come out, more is not total than told. For all we know, a massive outbreak of avian flu began 3 months ago or terrorists have stolen a stockpile of nuclear power plant wastes or contagious biological diseases was stolen in a raid on a laboratory - and one thing we know is the government would not tell us unless they wanted to.

Since police records are public and the press generally listens to police radio and looks at police logs, how did this remain secret for 8 MONTHS?!

Now that's a good question.