Post Conception Opt-Out? Good Idea or Bad?

[Bodi]

This threads title, "Post Conception Opt-Out? Good Idea or Bad?" should, IMO, have had but 2 choices in the poll, "Good Idea" and "Bad Idea", leaving discussion to occur about the choice selected.
Or the 1st two choices could have been worded, "Hold man responsible" and "Allow man to be irresponsible".
Polls being a major source of statistical data, this poll is exemplary in showing why I don't place much value in statistical data.

A man informing a woman that he is opting out so that she can make the best and most responsible choice for herself and the coming baby is not irresponsible. In fact it is the exact opposite... it is extremely responsible.

 

[iguanaman]

Pretty sure the state will support her and her child and the state will go after the father to pay the kids part.

Again I notice that it’s not a young man in a relationship who took all the precautions but had an accident. It’s pig men who want to **** without consequences with no condemnation whatsoever for women who get to **** around with no consequences beyond those involved with an abortion.

Men bad! Always have been, always will be, right? Some men suck so all men must pay.

You’ll notice there has been zero woman bashing for having sex. No”shoulda kept your legs closed” comments.

And you sing a different song when somebody says women should have all the children they get pregnant with. That that’s the consequence for that. And I agree with that different song. I’m as pro choice as they come. For all the reasons you are. But I am willing to accept the burden of a little more in taxes to provide more equity. Pretty universally.

You seem to think men are the special ones. They can be reckless with their seed and walk away scot free. Adults have to pay to play in this life. Get real for a change. Actions have consequences (unless you are DJT ) and no... stupid men do not get a pass. It matters not that some might abuse it either. It changes nothing. And if men REALLY want to make sure they don't father a child there is always the nuclear option,

 

[Individual]

A man informing a woman that he is opting out so that she can make the best and most responsible choice for herself and the coming baby is not irresponsible. In fact it is the exact opposite... it is extremely responsible.

And which of our opposing opinions would more likely be upheld in court?
But what have you to say about the actual words about your poll choices in my post?

 

[Bodi]

And which of our opposing opinions would more likely be upheld in court?

Whatever the law is at that time... which is an Appeal to Tradition. Laws change.

But what have you to say about the actual words about your poll choices in my post?

This does not make a lot of sense. What do I have to say about MY poll choices in YOUR post?

 

[Noodlegawd]

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

- Women currently have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.
- Men currently do not have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.

Right now, women have all of the power over their pregnancy, and that is how it should be. They can have the child or not have the child. That is how it should be.

Women should be able to have sex, get pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want (abort the child) if they want to, and they have this right.

Men should be able to have sex, get a woman pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want if they want to, but they have not this right.

Currently men are bound to whatever choice a woman makes post conception. She can walk away, and he cannot walk away. This is unequal.

What many have proposed is essentially the following:

1. Man and woman have sex.
   1. Woman gets pregnant.
      1. Woman has options:
         1. Woman never informs man of pregnancy and aborts
         2. Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but never gets financial help from him
         3. Woman informs man of pregnancy and wants no financial support as they have some sort of joint custody
         4. Woman informs many of pregnancy and wants financials support from the man

At this point the man has options:

1. Man agrees to pay and has some sort of custody
2. Man agrees to pay and has no role in the child’s life
3. Man does not agree to pay for anything and wants nothing to do with her or the child

If he chooses option 3 then the woman has options again:

1. Woman has an abortion
2. Woman gives the baby up for adoption
3. Woman has the child and pays for it herself

It is pretty simple. As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

We might see people conflate the argument… insisting that biology and law can not be separated. That is utterly ridiculous. This is about post conception. She is already pregnant.

We might see the worst type of debate… the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

Anyway… thoughts?

It's fine the way it is. The burdens and risks may not be equal, but they are known up front. And let's not forget all the burden and risk the woman faces that the man does not.

Bottom line: The guy always has the choice to keep it in his pants if he's not happy with the potential consequences.

 

[Bodi]

You seem to think men are the special ones.

Wait. The women who have all the power over literal life and death, that can abort, that can not abort, that can have the child despite what they man wants, that can force a man to pay for her choice for 18 years... she is not the special one... it is some of us that think that the man is really the special one? Even though all I am doing is advocating for equal ability to opt out of being a parent? LOL/ The way some of you think is ****ing mind boggling.

They can be reckless with their seed and walk away scot free.

Women can spread their legs for some orgasms and then kill their developing child. Not looking so good there bud. LOL

Adults have to pay to play in this life. Get real for a change. Actions have consequences (unless you are DJT ) and no... stupid men do not get a pass.

Irrelevant to the argument.

It matters not that some might abuse it either. It changes nothing. And if men REALLY want to make sure they don't father a child there is always the nuclear option,

And here we end with women still having all the power under my OP and you still are not happy... just because a guy can opt out of parenthood.

None of you... Literally, have said why this is a problem. Just insults, some of them personal too, instead of objective debating. ****ing childish.

 

[Bodi]

It's fine the way it is. The burdens and risks may not be equal, but they are known up front. The guy always has the choice to keep it in his pants if he's not happy with the potential consequences.

That is fine and I appreciate that you are not twisting it or demeaning me or men.

I would ask though, what specifically is wrong with the argument that I laid out?

 

[iguanaman]

Wait. The women who have all the power over literal life and death, that can abort, that can not abort, that can have the child despite what they man wants, that can force a man to pay for her choice for 18 years... she is not the special one... it is some of us that think that the man is really the special one? Even though all I am doing is advocating for equal ability to opt out of being a parent? LOL/ The way some of you think is ****ing mind boggling.

Women can spread their legs for some orgasms and then kill their developing child. Not looking so good there bud. LOL

Irrelevant to the argument.

And here we end with women still having all the power under my OP and you still are not happy... just because a guy can opt out of parenthood.

None of you... Literally, have said why this is a problem. Just insults, some of them personal too, instead of objective debating. ****ing childish.

As longs as they pay all expenses for the abortion and "deadbeat" is tattooed permanently on the foreheads of those men that do "opt out". I see no problem. Because the rest of the people they meet should know up front what kind of person they are.

 

[iguanaman]

That is fine and I appreciate that you are not twisting it or demeaning me or men.

I would ask though, what specifically is wrong with the argument that I laid out?

This topic is "demeaning" to women but you are ok with that? The woman has a new life inside her and she has every right to decide whether the time is right for her to have a child without pressure from the father. You act like it is a business proposition and men always have the upper hand in business.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Perfect argument to use against women that want to be able to abort a man's child. Sorry lady, life is sometimes really unfair. Give birth. Done!!

Except it doesn't work that way.

Sorry, it's that unfair thing again.

 

[Noodlegawd]

That is fine and I appreciate that you are not twisting it or demeaning me or men.

I would ask though, what specifically is wrong with the argument that I laid out?

I don't see anything particularly wrong with it conceptually, but it's more complicated and probably harder to administer, and generally unnecessary. And what we have now works fairly well.

I think Lursa had some good points in one of the first responses. I recognize that you may have addressed those, and I'm sure there are good answers to at least some of those concerns, but I haven't read the entire thread (nor do I intend to).

 

[Individual]

Whatever the law is at that time... which is an Appeal to Tradition. Laws change.

This does not make a lot of sense. What do I have to say about MY poll choices in YOUR post?

Your thread title asks if post conception is a good or bad idea, but your choices provide very biased choices.
Your poll choices are quite different from the poll question.
But, I find many polls are done in a way to try and acquire desirable results.
No man is ever help hostage relative to the threads subject, but by law some are indeed held accountable, as they should be.
Had the first choice been "Hold Man Accountable" instead of "Hold Man Hostage" I would easily have made that selection.

 

[Gatsby]

Bro. THERE IS NO ****ING GODDAMN KID.

If you "opt out" of taking care of your kid (but don't have an abortion) then there is a kid to take care of. That's the point that you don't seem to understand. Not everything is about you. Children have needs too, like being supported by their parents.

 

[Gatsby]

Nobody is saying that children should not be cared for.

If you "opt out" of raising your kid or paying for his/her needs, that is very literally what you are saying.

Or at best you are saying "Yeah someone somewhere should buy that kid clothes for school, I guess, but it has nothing to do with me." Which amounts to the same thing as saying the child should not be cared for.

 

[Lursa]

No. That is the whole ****ing point of this thread. For ****'s Sake.

I can't stand reading all these ****ing idiotic replies. Read the OP. Comment on that and stop posting stupid shit...

@Gatsby
@Lursa
@SMTA
@Individual

Again, you need a dictionary. "manipulate" does not mean "make." If men could legally "make" women have abortions, we wouldnt be hearing about some silly 'opt-out' designed to "manipulate" women into aborting. It is a desperate, last chance move...

Men made a choice...knew the possible consequences...and that the woman has the decisions regarding a pregnancy. Then hypocritically, they resent women for acting in our own best interests...when that's exactly what men want to do. But they dont own up to the fact that THEY chose to take that risk to have sex.

Why shouldnt men be held accountable for that choice? Isnt that generally how life works? Go to Vegas, see if they let you walk away when your risks dont pay out. The end of "male reproductive privilege?"



"When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression."

 

[Lursa]

Except it doesn't work that way.

Sorry, it's that unfair thing again.

No more male reproductive privilege, aw shucks. No more sex without consequences for men.

He and some others refuse to address the counter argument to this opt-out...it's not about changing a law. The child has statutory rights. They over ride anything the man or woman wants. And for society, there is no legitimate reason or benefit to violate those child's rights.


"When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression."

 

[trouble13]

Yes maybe women should not fraternize with men at all. They are not trustworthy. Like the grasshopper they seem to think that there is no tomorrow. At least that is what you are suggesting.

Women should do what is in their best interest and men should do the same.

 

[Bodi]

This topic is "demeaning" to women but you are ok with that?

You are speaking for women? Very male of you. LOL

The woman has a new life inside her and she has every right to decide whether the time is right for her to have a child without pressure from the father.

Again you are lying and not addressing the argument. Very childish. She has all the power to abort or not abort in my argument. You keep ignoring that like Lenny was scared of Slim.

You act like it is a business proposition and men always have the upper hand in business.

I think more of women than you do. They are capable of making good decisions, standing up for themselves, etc. I bet you think that Jada needed Will to stand up for her too.

As longs as they pay all expenses for the abortion and "deadbeat" is tattooed permanently on the foreheads of those men that do "opt out". I see no problem. Because the rest of the people they meet should know up front what kind of person they are.

I love the Scarlet Letter idea... have all women that abort the babies have a "Baby Killer" tattoo on their forehead. How about a "I had a baby and never told the father and then ****ed him over for 18 years of back child support even though he never saved because he never knew" tattoo? That would circle her neck and head a few times though. LOL

 

[Lursa]

Again you are lying and not addressing the argument. Very childish. She has all the power to abort or not abort in my argument. You keep ignoring that like Lenny was scared of Slim.

How is he lying? Be specific. That's all you do...you get mad when people counter your argument and then call them liars and accuse them of not addressing something specific.

Tell us specifically...what is his lie?

Your argument fails on many levels...and you refuse to address when people show that. You just get mad and call people liars...with no proof.

 

[Bodi]

If you "opt out" of raising your kid or paying for his/her needs, that is very literally what you are saying.

No. It is LITERALLY not the argument. It is no longer your kid. It is her kid if she chooses to have it on her own.

Or at best you are saying "Yeah someone somewhere should buy that kid clothes for school, I guess, but it has nothing to do with me." Which amounts to the same thing as saying the child should not be cared for.

Wrong. If she can not take care of the child it falls on her. She had a choice/chance to abort and save the child from poverty.

 

[Bodi]

If you "opt out" of taking care of your kid (but don't have an abortion) then there is a kid to take care of.

That's the point that you don't seem to understand.

That is the point. At that point it falls on her since she did not have an abortion, doing what was best for the child by pre-empting poverty and hardship.

Not everything is about you.

What a stupid statement. Start thinking before you type stupid shit.

Children have needs too, like being supported by their parents.

Again, she needs to not be selfish then... right? Abort the child that she can not care for. Not a hard concept... but instead, assholes want the man to pay for her decision. That is how it is but it is not right, equal, fair or just.

 

[Lursa]

No. It is LITERALLY not the argument. It is no longer your kid. It is her kid if she chooses to have it on her own.

It 'biologically' still is. Just because you are proposing some change to the law, it's not currently reality and Gatsby is right.

And he's likely to remain right, because the child has statutory rights that override anything you or the woman want to 'contract out of.' Post 4.

Wrong. If she can not take care of the child it falls on her. She had a choice/chance to abort and save the child from poverty.

Wrong, the man knew the risks when he slept with her, he rolled the dice, and he lost. He is responsible for 50%...not the taxpayers. Such hypocrisy...if it's not 'fair' for the man who created the kid...how could it possibly be fair for the taxpayers who didnt contribute a single thing to creating that kid?

 

[Bodi]

Your thread title asks if post conception is a good or bad idea, but your choices provide very biased choices.
Your poll choices are quite different from the poll question.
But, I find many polls are done in a way to try and acquire desirable results.
No man is ever help hostage relative to the threads subject, but by law some are indeed held accountable, as they should be.
Had the first choice been "Hold Man Accountable" instead of "Hold Man Hostage" I would easily have made that selection.

You started good... looked interesting. Was curious what you would argue... then you just failed again. Nothing regarding the actual argument and instead just harped on the wording of the poll. Lame.

 

[Bodi]

I don't see anything particularly wrong with it conceptually, but it's more complicated and probably harder to administer, and generally unnecessary. And what we have now works fairly well.

I think Lursa had some good points in one of the first responses. I recognize that you may have addressed those, and I'm sure there are good answers to at least some of those concerns, but I haven't read the entire thread (nor do I intend to).

Reasonable. Fair. Thoughtful. We may disagree but this is a post that I can respect.

Not many like this mate... I appreciate it. Can you run a class on how people could debate better?

 

[Lursa]

Again, she needs to not be selfish then... right? Abort the child that she can not care for. Not a hard concept... but instead, assholes want the man to pay for her decision. That is how it is but it is not right, equal, fair or just.

No, we want the man to pay for HIS decision...to risk a pregnancy by sleeping with her. Did he know her position on abortion before he slept with her?

There are many women who just dont believe in abortion. They use birth control, it fails...they are willing to accept having a kid. That's not irresponsible. That's accepting a consequence. As is a painful, costly abortion. Or miscarriage, or death…all possible consequences but there's no escape…she'll be suffering at least one if not more.​

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So why is it so unfair for men to do the same? They knowingly accept the risk and know they cant tell her what to do. If they sleep with her anyway, then they also should accept that consequence. It's equal. It's not equal outcomes but they knew that going in too.​

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If men dont act in their own best interests and avoid that risk, that's their choice...that is irresponsible. And stupid IMO.​