Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

[Bodi]

It is relevant though, and you unilaterally declaring that it isn't doesn't change anything. In the matter of pregnancy, men and women are undeniably in different practical circumstances due to the obvious biological differences. The is the direct reason that their circumstances under the law will be, has to be, different.

It wasn't a strawman, it was an abstract explanation of reality. The legal difference isn't because of them being male or female, it's because one of them is pregnant. If a biological man could somehow become pregnant, he would have exactly the same rights and responsibilities as a pregnant woman.

There it is. LOL. If the man could get pregnant.

...and no, it is not relevant to the OP. You keep talking about the biology. The OP clearly is about what the law can do, but doesn't.

 

[Bodi]

There are currently a bunch of different options before and during the point you started with.
It is in those options that the man makes their decision, currently.

This argument is about other options that could be given, but are not.

 

[Bodi]

She has a brain and can opt out of a pregnancy she knows she cannot support.

He does not have a brain so there is no way he could possibly know that using a condom gives him an opt out

This is called biological inequality.

The biology is not part of the argument.

 

[Bodi]

By allowing men to have the surgical procedure to have an abortion, men are provided the same opt out that women have, the one bodhi is seeking.

 

[Bodi]

I fully support men's right to abortion

So they have the same right to undergo a surgical procedure to end their pregnancy as a woman.

Nothing is more fair than that

It always makes me chuckle... seeing this idiotically ludicrous "counter-argument" presented.

 

[Bodi]

I see we are calling another meeting of the bitter deadbeat club to order.

So ****ing bitter. LOL Is that what the fascist femi-Nazi groups are teaching these days? LOL

 

[Bodi]

Lol... looking to recruit more bitter dudes to the deadbeat club? Hehe

It is a debate topic. Don't respond if it upsets you so much that you post dipshit insults. Cool?

The only scenario that I'd support a male "opt out" would be if it could be proven that the man's sperm had been taken unknowingly or without his consent.

Seee? That is all you had to say.

Outside of that, the reason women can choose to abort is because the birth process takes place entirely in her body, as does an abortion. It's not disparity because parity is impossible.

Sorry, bud, a deadbeat is still a deadbeat. As a man I would never support this - probably because as a man I know what we'd do with this... at least, those among us that would even want this.

Maybe just, you know, be careful where you leave your deposits, and stop trying to control women so much. Putting them in a position where they must abort for financial reasons isn't all that different from telling them they can't abort.

You don't actually say what you disagree with about the proposal.

 

[The Mark]

This argument is about other options that could be given, but are not.

Sure, but starting from "man and woman having sex", then jumping straight to "woman gets pregnant", while skipping over all the potential options before and during that...

Well it seems like an intentional decision to avoid that context for the discussion.

Example of what might have been above the start point used.

Man and woman decide to have sex.

Man has condom, puts it on, it does not fail.
Woman is on birth control, it does not fail.
Man has had vasectomy, it hasn't reverted.
Woman has had Tubal ligation or something of that nature, eggs no longer available or cannot be reached by sperm.​

Woman does not get pregnant.​

 

[Lursa]

This argument is about other options that could be given, but are not.

You have not provided any reason why they should be. Simple enough. You complain about "equal" when you invent some kind of equal status, tarnishing the concept with the idea of escaping the consequences of one's choices, and cannot explain what "rights" are being denied men.

 

[Lursa]

It is a debate topic. Don't respond if it upsets you so much that you post dipshit insults. Cool?



Seee? That is all you had to say.



You don't actually say what you disagree with about the proposal.

It says more about you that you continually bring it up as a debate topic, struggling to validate it, and the idea.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

It always makes me chuckle... seeing this idiotically ludicrous "counter-argument" presented.

You said to ignore biology this time around.

Biology was ignored

So under the law letting men have abortions means equality

 

[Bodi]

letting men have abortions means equality

This has always been a dumb Straw Man.

 

[Bodi]

Sure, but starting from "man and woman having sex", then jumping straight to "woman gets pregnant", while skipping over all the potential options before and during that...

Well it seems like an intentional decision to avoid that context for the discussion.

Example of what might have been above the start point used.

Man and woman decide to have sex.

Man has condom, puts it on, it does not fail.​

Woman is on birth control, it does not fail.​

Man has had vasectomy, it hasn't reverted.​

Woman has had Tubal ligation or something of that nature, eggs no longer available or cannot be reached by sperm.​

Woman does not get pregnant.​

None of that matters. What matters is that she is pregnant. She has an opt-out and he does not.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

This has always been a dumb Straw Man.

So is the OP

 

[Bodi]

So is the OP

It is not a Straw Man in the slightest any more than asking a question about changing a law like murder, or something. Whereas your argument fits the definition of Straw Man EXACTLY. Distorting my argument by saying it would work if Men could get pregnant and abort? For ****'s sake... that is where the counter argument really is? LOL

A straw man argument, sometimes called a straw person argument or spelled strawman argument, is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. In creating a straw man argument, the arguer strips the opposing point of view of any nuance and often misrepresents it in a negative lig

What Is a Straw Man Argument? Definition and Examples

Imagine arguing with a scarecrow. You can make any argument you want and the scarecrow won’t argue back. In fact, you can do…

www.grammarly.com

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

It is not a Straw Man in the slightest any more than asking a question about changing a law like murder, or something. Whereas your argument fits the definition of Straw Man EXACTLY. Distorting my argument by saying it would work if Men could get pregnant and abort? For ****'s sake... that is where the counter argument really is? LOL

A straw man argument, sometimes called a straw person argument or spelled strawman argument, is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. In creating a straw man argument, the arguer strips the opposing point of view of any nuance and often misrepresents it in a negative lig

What Is a Straw Man Argument? Definition and Examples

Imagine arguing with a scarecrow. You can make any argument you want and the scarecrow won’t argue back. In fact, you can do…

www.grammarly.com

You want to ignore biology by stating men have an unequal ability to end a pregnancy. Which of course is the only way to stop parental responsibility until the pregnancy has come to term.

There is a perfectly good reason for that inequity, and that is biology. Men typically do not get pregnant

 

[Bodi]

You want to ignore biology by stating men have an unequal ability to end a pregnancy.

See, you didn't even read the OP.

I said that women maintain 100% control and decision making over their pregnancy.

Men typically do not get pregnant

Unless you are making some gender argument then this is a ridiculous statement, again.

And there are the facts that I did not commit a Straw Man,
you did not acknowledge this fact AND you did commit a
Straw Man Fallacy and ignored that as well.

 

[OlNate]

It is a debate topic. Don't respond if it upsets you so much that you post dipshit insults. Cool?



Seee? That is all you had to say.



You don't actually say what you disagree with about the proposal.

Oh, Bodi, don't be so sensitive, I thought we knew each other well enough to talk a little shit...

What do i disagree with any the notion of a make opt out? Everything. This is a moral issue for me, a matter of values. An old fashioned notion of what it means to be a man, one of the few traditional values i actually believe in.

And this is the problem you will have selling this notion. Values are often illogical, yet are stronger in the minds of those that hold them than logic.

More than that, it's instinctual, going back to a time before logic and values. Men look after their offspring.

Maybe one day society will move beyond our genetic coding to both look after our own, and look down on males who fail to, but we're not there yet. To me it just looks like another way to control women - something I mentioned in the last post as my primary source of disagreement, you must have missed it. That's hardly reason enough for me to abandon what I consider to be the most noble characteristic of masculinity.

Of course, having grown up without my dad for over a decade (we've since grown close again, but it's complicated), no doubt taints the lens through which i view this. The deadbeat dad is definitely a thing, and I don't feel like things need to be made any easier for them. Opting out isn't just abandoning one's child financially, it also robs them of a relationship, an example, and a mentor.

Given how easy it is to avoid procreating, especially for a man, in any number of ways that merely require a little self discipline, making it easier for men to shirk their responsibilities seems counter productive, and is nothing that i could ever be convinced to support.

 

[The Mark]

None of that matters. What matters is that she is pregnant. She has an opt-out and he does not.

Because he already opted in at all prior possible opt-out chances.

 

[Bodi]

Oh, Bodi, don't be so sensitive, I thought we knew each other well enough to talk a little shit...

I thought you were poking fun but dismissed my instinct... and you got me.

What do i disagree with any the notion of a make opt out? Everything. This is a moral issue for me, a matter of values. An old fashioned notion of what it means to be a man, one of the few traditional values i actually believe in.

I think that the opt-out, at this time, is pretty ridiculous for the same reason... like I say, it is an argument about equality under the law.

And this is the problem you will have selling this notion. Values are often illogical, yet are stronger in the minds of those that hold them than logic.

More than that, it's instinctual, going back to a time before logic and values. Men look after their offspring.

Well, that was more about hereditary issues and working the farm, etc.

Maybe one day society will move beyond our genetic coding to both look after our own, and look down on males who fail to, but we're not there yet. To me it just looks like another way to control women - something I mentioned in the last post as my primary source of disagreement, you must have missed it. That's hardly reason enough for me to abandon what I consider to be the most noble characteristic of masculinity.

Of course, having grown up without my dad for over a decade (we've since grown close again, but it's complicated), no doubt taints the lens through which i view this. The deadbeat dad is definitely a thing, and I don't feel like things need to be made any easier for them. Opting out isn't just abandoning one's child financially, it also robs them of a relationship, an example, and a mentor.

Given how easy it is to avoid procreating, especially for a man, in any number of ways that merely require a little self discipline, making it easier for men to shirk their responsibilities seems counter productive, and is nothing that i could ever be convinced to support.

People argue that women shirk theirs... that mothers do not kill their unborn. That is why I say away from morality here and stick to, she has a post conception opt-out and he does not have a post conception opt-out.

 

[weaver2]

The biology is not part of the argument.

Thinking with your penis is definitely a biological activity.

 

[HonestJoe]

There it is. LOL. If the man could get pregnant.

...and no, it is not relevant to the OP. You keep talking about the biology. The OP clearly is about what the law can do, but doesn't.

Yes, but your OP is based on the assertion that the situation is imbalanced because of the law and that equity (note, not equality) could be achieved by simply changing the law. That is objectively wrong.

 

[Lycanthrope]

She has all the power over her body and pregnancy.

Been to America recently? This is not the case in multiple states.

 

[Bodi]

Been to America recently? This is not the case in multiple states.

I should update that because when I first posed this Abortion was legal and this argument is contingent with areas where abortion is 100% legal.

 

[Lycanthrope]

I should update that because when I first posed this Abortion was legal and this argument is contingent with areas where abortion is 100% legal.

Even when it was legal in every state efforts were made (and enacted) to limit access. Men have had a measure of control over women's bodies and pregnancies a long time.