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Positive Step in the West Bank

gree0232

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washingtonpost.com

"Developed by a U.S.-trained anthropologist, the venture sent 350 tons of olive oil to the United States and Europe in 2008, about $4 million worth, with projections that the amount could triple in a couple of years. Canaan Fair Trade has become the chief olive oil supplier to the Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap company and is breaking into boutique food stores with its own gourmet olive oil brand. There are smaller sales to major grocers like Whole Foods and Sainsbury's.

"The value is in exports and long-term relationships" with overseas buyers, said Nasser Abufarha, who returned to the region of his childhood with a doctorate from the University of Wisconsin and an aim to "give a space in modern society" for olive-harvesting families."


These are the kinds of programs that offer the West Bank a chance at real development, steady jobs and income, and revenue for the Palestinian state that can be reinvested in services and systems. This is a good thing.
 
washingtonpost.com

"Developed by a U.S.-trained anthropologist, the venture sent 350 tons of olive oil to the United States and Europe in 2008, about $4 million worth, with projections that the amount could triple in a couple of years. Canaan Fair Trade has become the chief olive oil supplier to the Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap company and is breaking into boutique food stores with its own gourmet olive oil brand. There are smaller sales to major grocers like Whole Foods and Sainsbury's.

"The value is in exports and long-term relationships" with overseas buyers, said Nasser Abufarha, who returned to the region of his childhood with a doctorate from the University of Wisconsin and an aim to "give a space in modern society" for olive-harvesting families."


These are the kinds of programs that offer the West Bank a chance at real development, steady jobs and income, and revenue for the Palestinian state that can be reinvested in services and systems. This is a good thing.

you sound like martha stewart, :lol:

I agree with the op of course though.
 
Very Positive!

And [sadly] truly Newsworthy that the Palestinians would start acting constructively!!!

Just think where we might be had they done so after Oslo or anytime right up until Gaza was returned 4 years ago, Greenhouses intact (but not for long).

Just compare, ie, what the Kurds were able to do with no help surrounded by Hostiles from Iran, To Saddam, to Turkey, given just a No-fly umbrella.
A truly industrious [and real] people who deserve a state.
And are flourishing mightily with only Some autonomy now.
 
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Very Positive!

And [sadly] truly Newsworthy that the Palestinians would start acting constructively!!!

Just think where we might be had they done so after Oslo or anytime right up until Gaza was returned 4 years ago, Greenhouses intact (but not for long).

Just compare, ie, what the Kurds were able to do with no help surrounded by Hostiles from Iran, To Saddam, to Turkey, given just a No-fly umbrella.
A truly industrious [and real] people who deserve a state.
And are flourishing mightily with only Some autonomy now.

Not a very good comparison.
 
Not a very good comparison.

Except for the fact that Kurdish identity predates Palestinian identity, how is this not a good comparison?
 
Except for the fact that Kurdish identity predates Palestinian identity, how is this not a good comparison?

Good question

Kurdish Iraq is an oil state involving no land dispute, no refugees and with little central interference for some time now. Nor does it have settler populations on its land disputing/ occupying who's land it is.
 
creation said:
Good question

Kurdish Iraq is an oil state involving no land dispute, no refugees and with little central interference for some time now. Nor does it have settler populations on its land disputing/ occupying who's land it is.
But Bad answer.

The Kurds under the no-fly zone And previous were NOT an 'oil state', just an industrious people.
Even their smuggling, commercial in nature.

Kurds are persecuted Heavily in Eastern Turkey and regulary raided.
Hundred of villages have been wiped out and for a good while prevented from any use of the Kurdish language in Public... or even giving their children Kurdish names.
Tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have been cleansed and are 'refugees'.

Only to get into the EU, did Turkey ease up on it's Ethnic Cleanising and even denial there was a Kurdish people.
Of course Saddam was even worse on them.

Kurds ARE involved in a "Land dispute".. one THEY have accepted semi-autonomy for rather than a state. [Constructively] recognizing the difficulty of "Facts on the ground".. Turkey would crush them if indepedent.
Palestinians, OTOH, CAN have their own state.. just insist on the 1967 borders and NO compromise.


And there are plenty of Kurdish refugees who have fled to many countries to escape Saddam and the Turks.. they're just not useful for an anti-semitic cause célèbre like 'palestinians' are.
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But Bad answer.

The Kurds under the no-fly zone And previous were NOT an 'oil state', just an industrious people.
Even their smuggling, commercial in nature.

Kurds are persecuted Heavily in Eastern Turkey and regulary raided.
Hundred of villages have been wiped out and for a good while prevented from any use of the Kurdish language in Public... or even giving their children Kurdish names.
Tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have been cleansed and are 'refugees'.

Only to get into the EU, did Turkey ease up on it's Ethnic Cleanising and even denial there was a Kurdish people.
Of course Saddam was even worse on them.

Kurds ARE involved in a "Land dispute".. one THEY have accepted semi-autonomy for rather than a state. [Constructively] recognizing the difficulty of "Facts on the ground".. Turkey would crush them if indepedent.
Palestinians, OTOH, CAN have their own state.. just insist on the 1967 borders and NO compromise.


And there are plenty of Kurdish refugees who have fled to many countries to escape Saddam and the Turks.. they're just not useful for an anti-semitic cause célèbre like 'palestinians' are.
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Even the geography isnt comparable. These parts of eastern turkey are only a part of Kurdistan, nor have they been occupied or settled for a very long time.

Nor could anyone imagine the Palestinians conducting a smuggling operation on the Kurdish scale, its simply not possible as north iraq is a land connection between different parts of that entire region.

This is just another attempt to label the palestinians as lazy dupes of islamist hardliners fighting against innocent israelis who only want peace and are occupying because they really really have to.
 
Even the geography isnt comparable. ..
Huh?
The Geography doesn't have to be comparable.
Of course the Kurds have even worse 'geography'.
Landlocked between Arab states and Iran who dislike them.
'Palestinians' have a coastline and a border with a fellow arab state.
But hey.. there's another one that backfired.

This is just another attempt to label the palestinians as lazy dupes of islamist hardliners fighting against innocent israelis who only want peace and are occupying because they really really have to.
No.
It's just the truth.. and most reasonable people would concede that was the case under the incompetent and crooked Arafat for 40 years.
Now we do indeed have "Islamists dupes" too to go with the previous anti-Israel/anti-semitic Arabists.

and of course you didn't/couldn't address the more realistic/compromise-minded Kurds in re the Land Dispute you said didn't exist.
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Huh?
The Geography doesn't have to be comparable.
Of course the Kurds have even worse 'geography'.
Landlocked between Arab states and Iran who dislike them.
'Palestinians' have a coastline and a border with a fellow arab state.
But hey.. there's another one that backfired.

Of course it does, it defines possible trades and routes and resources available.

They have links to syria, azerbijan, iran, southern iraq and havent occupied or settled for years to anything like the same extent.

Palestinians are not in the same boat.

Youre way off here. Do intend to stand on this point?

No.
It's just the truth.. and most reasonable people would concede that was the case under the incompetent and crooked Arafat for 40 years.
Now we do indeed have "Islamists dupes" too to go with the previous anti-Israel/anti-semitic Arabists.

and of course you didn't/couldn't address the more realistic/compromise-minded Kurds in re the Land Dispute you said didn't exist.
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Its just bigoted nonsense to compare these apples with these oranges.

The Turks, though dominant, have no designs on their territory. They are easier to compromise with. Moreover, Kurdistan extends beyond eastern turkey and the kurds are not a refugee people who's homes have been stolen by immigrant settlers some 60 years ago. Again more detailed differences for you to try to explain away.

Please do so. No one is fooled.
 
Of course it does, it defines possible trades and routes and resources available.

They have links to syria, azerbijan, iran, southern iraq and havent occupied or settled for years to anything like the same extent.

Palestinians are not in the same boat.

Youre way off here. Do intend to stand on this point?
I'll stand on it until and unless you rebut it.
Which means Forever. LOL
Again, the Kurds are Landlocked and surrounded by Unfriendlies.
Turkey says they won't tolerate an independent Kurdish state that's Not even on Turkish land.

Palestinians have a coastline and brother Arab countrieS Egypt and 70% 'Palestinian' Jordan.... and their 'worst enemy' Israel accepted a Palestinian state initially and has since offered one a few times.
No contest. You lose on Geography too.



Its just bigoted nonsense to compare these apples with these oranges.

The Turks, though dominant, have no designs on their territory. They are easier to compromise with. Moreover, Kurdistan extends beyond eastern turkey and the kurds are not a refugee people who's homes have been stolen by immigrant settlers some 60 years ago. Again more detailed differences for you to try to explain away.
Please do so. No one is fooled.
No it's just empty insult to call my post 'bigoted nonsense'.
The Kurds state has already been given away.

No one has to have designs any more.. except to Keep it.
That would include the State of Iraq, under whom the Turks must settle, and do, compromise for autonomy... only.
And because the Turks have made it clear they will Not stand for an independent Kurdish State even though not in Turkey.

A worse/more onerous tyranny than the palestinians have to bear, they've been offered a state by their enemy Israel and everyone else in the neighborhood is Arab.

Nor did you answer on me pointing out that Paletinians were indeed badly mismanaged and lazy bigots under a man of the same character they kept electing.. Arafat.
Until, in revulsion (TOO), they in partial elected some Islamist Terrorists.. Hamas.

Your posts are semantic BS.. trying to Bluff your way through Every M-E debate.
Perhaps you have a topic you do know something about and it's located on this board; but it ain't this section.
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Your posts are semantic BS.. trying to Bluff your way through Every M-E debate.
Perhaps you have a topic you do know something about and it's located on this board; but it ain't this section.
-

Moderator's Warning:
Watch it, mrbig. You are getting close to the border of civility, here.
 
A couple of things.

The analogy to Kurdistan is wide of the mark, though it does have a couple of simularities, the most accurate of which is that the borders of Kurdistan, outside the three Northern Provinces of Iraq, are very much in dispute.

However, I do think it is important to mention that Israel is not one of the countries occupying Kurdish claimed territory. That means that the religious issues that have come to thoroughly penetrate the Israeli-Palestine conflict are absent from Kurdistan.

More importantly though, analogy in problem comparison is supposed to teach us a lesson. To create conditions of similar success in Palestine, should we enforce a no fly zone? Land US troops to manuever against the hostile occupation forces as then LTC Abizaid (recently retired CENTCOM CDR) did to free up Kurdish forces? What would bring similar benefits to Kurdistan? Mr. Big, I would hope the point of your comparison was not simply to bash the Palestinians as worthless?

If so, and in direct rebuttal, I will point to the many thousands of Palestinians who are prospering right here in the US. The lesson of America is that any people, regardless of race, sex, color, religion -- whatever, will suceed under the correct conditions. We would do well to heed that lesson.

We would also do well to remember that the Palestinian state has no ability to create conditions. All of the nominal instruments of governance, such as budget, security, etc., remain outside the control of the Palestinian state, a condition very different than that of the Kurdish Regional Government.
 
A couple of things.

The analogy to Kurdistan is wide of the mark, though it does have a couple of simularities, the most accurate of which is that the borders of Kurdistan, outside the three Northern Provinces of Iraq, are very much in dispute.

However, I do think it is important to mention that Israel is not one of the countries occupying Kurdish claimed territory. That means that the religious issues that have come to thoroughly penetrate the Israeli-Palestine conflict are absent from Kurdistan.

More importantly though, analogy in problem comparison is supposed to teach us a lesson. To create conditions of similar success in Palestine, should we enforce a no fly zone? Land US troops to manuever against the hostile occupation forces as then LTC Abizaid (recently retired CENTCOM CDR) did to free up Kurdish forces? What would bring similar benefits to Kurdistan? Mr. Big, I would hope the point of your comparison was not simply to bash the Palestinians as worthless?

If so, and in direct rebuttal, I will point to the many thousands of Palestinians who are prospering right here in the US. The lesson of America is that any people, regardless of race, sex, color, religion -- whatever, will suceed under the correct conditions. We would do well to heed that lesson.

We would also do well to remember that the Palestinian state has no ability to create conditions. All of the nominal instruments of governance, such as budget, security, etc., remain outside the control of the Palestinian state, a condition very different than that of the Kurdish Regional Government.

That Im afraid is exactly the intent, however feeble.
 
That Im afraid is exactly the intent, however feeble.

Moderator's Warning:
And if you do not want a thread ban, you will refrain from making things personal like this. This is now the SECOND warning in this thread. All future issues, regardless of how minor will be met with removal.
 
I do not think the Palestinians worthless, perhaps they are the worst lead people in human history after the Tibetians and Philistines, but not worthless as humanbeings. If they had worth in leadership there would be a state and the worthless could never be asserted, more sadly believed, by to many of them.

None the less, the man should have the right to say it without a moderator tap dancing on this thought and words.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
And if you do not want a thread ban, you will refrain from making things personal like this. This is now the SECOND warning in this thread. All future issues, regardless of how minor will be met with removal.

My apologies.

Let me phrase it differently.

The point of the argument rather than mbig's personal intent, shall we say, and the fundamental aim of trying to bring equal comparison between the Kurds and the Palestinians is to highlight the Kurds as an especially industrious people and thus condemn the Palestinians as less industrious. This is thus held as a reason for continued conflict - that Palestinians are lazy, and hate filled.

If I have mis-understood I apologise but I am not wanting to make this a personal matter but merely to bring to light the heart of the arguments being entertained.
 
I do not think the Palestinians worthless, perhaps they are the worst lead people in human history after the Tibetians and Philistines, but not worthless as humanbeings. If they had worth in leadership there would be a state and the worthless could never be asserted, more sadly believed, by to many of them.

None the less, the man should have the right to say it without a moderator tap dancing on this thought and words.

The Tibetans had bad leadership? Curious, they had bad leadership with a peaceful dalai lama while the Palestinians are accused of their situation being due to their bad more violent leadership. It seems that oppressed people cannot win.
 
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I do not think the Palestinians worthless, perhaps they are the worst lead people in human history after the Tibetians and Philistines, but not worthless as humanbeings. If they had worth in leadership there would be a state and the worthless could never be asserted, more sadly believed, by to many of them.

None the less, the man should have the right to say it without a moderator tap dancing on this thought and words.

The best leaders in the world still need systems to administer in order to be effective leaders.

By way of comparison, the GOV of California has a much more difficult time administering his state than almost any of the other govenors. The reason? The systems for passing budgets and making changes are almost devilishly difficult to use. Even small changes require Herculean efforts of leadership AND consensus building.

On the Nation State level, there are generally considered four elements of National Power (DIME): Diplomacy, Intelligence, Military, and Economic. Each of these obviously has many supporting systems, but the synergistic effect of multilple systems is what allows leaders to manipulate these dimensions to express National Power.

I will go in reverse order to show the challenges that Palestinian leaders have.

Economic - There is, effectively, almost no Palestinian economy. Whether it be Hamas or Fatah, Gaza or the West Bank, there are currently crushing economic blocks that prevent either terrirtory from effectively integrating into the larger World economy. There would be great difficulty and enormous costs in the importation of something as simple as fertilizer to increase farm yields above subsitance level, much less for mechanization and spare parts to increase yields. Transportation costs are, given some estimates, an order of magnitude greater for products into and out of Palestine, effectively pricing Palestine out of the manufactured goods market. Worse, this means that there is no revenue source for the PA. There is no tax base, no system basis to fund schools, services, etc.

The entire PA, whether it be Hamas or Fatah, is dependant on grants from Arab and Western States. Although this gives the PA some sway in spending, large blocks of the PA's nominal budget are controlled by outside agencies for fear that it will be disbursed to terrorists within the territories. That leaves transnational smuggling as the final source of goods and services. These are tightly controlled, often corrupt, and nepotistic. What is the balance between tolerating neoptism and corruption and eliminating vital goods and services from you population?

A state the is unable to fund, or develop funding, for basic goods and services begins its journey at a severe disadvantage.

Military - There is largely no 'military' force to speak of. All of the weapons available to the forces, including the government forces, are at parity. AK-47's, RPK's, RPG's, and mortars, no armor, no aircraft, limited surveillence devices. Effectively, with a single robust truck load of weapons, a rival Palestinian faction can be created and made effective in the security capabilities void. That means all progress is through consensus of peers, not superior/subordinate relationships so common in military forces.

Information - Palestine has a nominally free press, and has been doing an increasingly good job of getting its side of the story out. There are regular contacts with Western, once unheard of, and Regional Press. There is an increasing amount of propoganda aimed at undermining Israel information efforts as well. This is the growth industry for Palestinian resistence, and something they are getting quite good at.

Diplomacy - Difficult, with many factions, Arab and Western, engaged in the conflict. Nevertheless, the Palestinians are making progress in the region, with serious talk of the extension of links to Hamas by some major Western Powers. Although overt military support to Palestine ended with the Camp David Accords, Palestine continues to effetively generate sources of funding throughout the Arab world using both formal and informal methods. They are also beginning to have more success diplomatically in consensus organizations like the UN.

Any Palestinian leader will have a great deal of difficult doing anything like force projection. On the contrary to the often ill considered calls of poor leadership, in the areas fo state power where Palestine can produce results they are producing results. We in the West may not like these advances in Palestinian efforts, but it would be poor leadership indeed who simply threw up there hands and gave up. That Palestinian leaders are not doing this, despite the numerous advantages that Israel has, is a testamount to the tenacity of Palestinian leadership.
 
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My apologies.

Let me phrase it differently.

The point of the argument rather than mbig's personal intent, shall we say, and the fundamental aim of trying to bring equal comparison between the Kurds and the Palestinians is to highlight the Kurds as an especially industrious people and thus condemn the Palestinians as less industrious. This is thus held as a reason for continued conflict - that Palestinians are lazy, and hate filled.

If I have mis-understood I apologise but I am not wanting to make this a personal matter but merely to bring to light the heart of the arguments being entertained.
You're Not "phrasing it differently", you're now adding some argumentative (at least on topic) content, even tho not rebutting my Kurd comparison, rather than just a simple Insult post above. ie.

"That Im afraid is exactly the intent, however feeble".

See your sig. AGAIN.
 
You're Not "phrasing it differently", you're now adding some argumentative (at least on topic) content, even tho not rebutting my Kurd comparison, rather than just a simple Insult post above. ie.

"That Im afraid is exactly the intent, however feeble".

See your sig. AGAIN.

Well, I did rebut your Kurd comparison, and I would love some illuminating insight iinto lesson we can derive from the Kurdish problem that we can apply to Palestine. Anything?

Honestly, how the hell does a thread about olive oil become so emotional? Olive oil?
 
You're Not "phrasing it differently", you're now adding some argumentative (at least on topic) content, even tho not rebutting my Kurd comparison, rather than just a simple Insult post above. ie.

"That Im afraid is exactly the intent, however feeble".

See your sig. AGAIN.

I have actually rebutted your comparison, as has Gree.

However, more importantly, if I have insulted you then let me apologise and ask exactly how that I may rectify this.

You argument is however, that the difference between the Kurds and the palestinians recent prosperity is their respective cultures and more personal qualities rather than their geography, economy and specific history is it not?

After all, you focus on the Kurds as an 'industrious people' on a thread about the West Bank.

That IS the intent. Is it? Or is it not?
 
Re: Positive Step in the West Bank after 60 years of Bigotry

Correction.

You have TRIED to rebut my Kurd comparison, but in Fact it just keeps getting better and making the Palestinians look worse by that very comparison; both geographically AND humanitarily/the relative constructiveness of a people.

Thats why I tried to give you some basics with Ozick you couldn't Comprehend, much less appreciate. 'Palestinianism', certainly from 1948-1967, and certainly thru Arafta to 2005, and now onto Hamas until current (giving Abbas a pass).. has been all about destroying Israel/Jews and NOT a national movement as much as an anti-Israel/semitc movement.

That's why the kurds, who have accepted never getting a state, look so good next to the Palestinians, who (Oooh more good comparison), when given similar autonomy under Oslo, just got More Violent.

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Re: Positive Step in the West Bank after 60 years of Bigotry

Correction.

You have TRIED to rebut my Kurd comparison, but in Fact it just keeps getting better and making the Palestinians look worse by that very comparison; both geographically AND humanitarily/the relative constructiveness of a people.

Thats why I tried to give you some basics with Ozick you couldn't Comprehend, much less appreciate. 'Palestinianism', certainly from 1948-1967, and certainly thru Arafta to 2005, and now onto Hamas until current (giving Abbas a pass).. has been all about destroying Israel/Jews and NOT a national movement as much as an anti-Israel/semitc movement.

That's why the kurds, who have accepted never getting a state, look so good next to the Palestinians, who (Oooh more good comparison), when given similar autonomy under Oslo, just got More Violent.

-

I have explained why you are not comparing like with like, the differences if you will. I will mention these in more detail if you wish.

If you can tell us why these differences in geography and history do not count or are irrelevant to your comparison, then I'm all ears.

Without any defence against this counter I and Gree have provided, your argument is undermined.
 
I have presented yet ANOTHER point of comparsion (Oslo autonomy v Kurd autonomy) you have FAILED to rebut..
Merely as in every point in every string ... CLAIM to.
 
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