Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

Link
BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

This from someone whose minions have sexually assaulted hundreds if not thousands of young children in their care.
Naturally all in the name of some archaic mumbo jumbo religion.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Oh yes. We should absolutely force religious institutions to accept anyone regardless of their own beliefs because that's religious freedom! :roll:

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

I'm with the pope on this one. Freedom of religion has to go both ways for it to mean anything. Religion needs to keep the hell out of government, and government needs to keep the hell out of religion.

Besides, you can't force acceptance on people.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

At least the pope has some common sense.....

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

texmaster said:

Oh yes. We should absolutely force religious institutions to accept anyone regardless of their own beliefs because that's religious freedom! :roll:

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That should only happen if they're getting tax dollars.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:

That should only happen if they're getting tax dollars.

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So let me get this straight *no pun intended*

Any organization who receives any tax payer money should be forced to accept any member regardless of their own beliefs or if it goes against the very nature of the organization?

So in effect, a gay advocacy group that receives any tax payer money should be forced to accept any pro life anti gay person who applies for any job as long as they meet the scholastic qualifications?

Can you see where this is leading?

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

texmaster said:

So let me get this straight *no pun intended*

Any organization who receives any tax payer money should be forced to accept any member regardless of their own beliefs or if it goes against the very nature of the organization?

So in effect, a gay advocacy group that receives any tax payer money should be forced to accept any pro life anti gay person who applies for any job as long as they meet the scholastic qualifications?

Can you see where this is leading?

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Exactly! If they're qualified, you can't reject them because you don't like their religion or sexual orientation. That part is none of your business and if you don't like it, then you have to give up your tax subsidies.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

molten_dragon said:

I'm with the pope on this one.

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Are you now?

Freedom of religion has to go both ways for it to mean anything. Religion needs to keep the hell out of government, and government needs to keep the hell out of religion.

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Yep and the law does not target religion specifically. It targets discrimination in society as a whole. The only reason "religion" gets possibly hit, is because it is discriminatory as hell. So are you for discrimination? For gay hating, for discrimination against women? Because the Pope is.

Besides, you can't force acceptance on people.

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Unlike the very church that the Pope represents...a religion that for centuries forced people to accept its rule and its views or face death. And even to this day its backwards views cause death and misery world wide in the poorest places on earth. Great role model there..

The Pope should go back to his palace and stay there among his gold and silver and jewels eating cake.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

jujuman13 said:

Link
BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

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This is none of the Pope's business. He's not a British citizen, so he needs to butt out.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

molten_dragon said:

Freedom of religion has to go both ways for it to mean anything. Religion needs to keep the hell out of government, and government needs to keep the hell out of religion.

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In the US, the Constitution doesn't actually say that. It says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

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So we need to keep government out of religion, but it doesn't say to keep religion out of government.

I am not sure, but it seems possible that the "free exercise" of religion may include being able to discriminate based on your religion's principles.

I wouldn't disagree. They are a private organization, they can do as they wish.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

This the same Pope who heads an organisation which Henry the 8th removed from the country? He ought to be quiet and stay out of it. :/

The MPs are elected, he is not. This has nothing to do with religious freedom but the wish to have the right to discriminate against Gay people.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

What's wrong with discriminating against gay people?

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:

What's wrong with discriminating against gay people?

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Discrimination as a whole is unacceptable.
I don't think an organisation or employer should be allowed to have the ability to reject someone who is perfectly capable of doing the job on the basis of their skin colour, religious beliefs or sexual preference.
If it doesn't affect the job, it is not anyones business.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:

Discrimination as a whole is unacceptable.
I don't think an organisation or employer should be allowed to have the ability to reject someone who is perfectly capable of doing the job on the basis of their skin colour, religious beliefs or sexual preference.
If it doesn't affect the job, it is not anyones business.

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I don't disagree, but the point here is that it DOES affect the job.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:

What's wrong with discriminating against gay people?

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Yea!.. It should be legal to discriminate against gays... lets throw Jews, muslims, those pesky African types, and those wide eyed Asians into the mix also. Lets not forget red heads!.. oh and left handers!... that is the mark of the devil after all according to some. How about skinny people..or women.. yea back to the damn kitchen wenches! make my food and bend over when I need to...

And back to the real world we go..

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

The pope is right on this one.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Equality%20Bill%20and%20Religion%20for%20press%20and%20website%20%283%29.pdf

MYTH: The Equality Bill will force churches to hire gay priests.

RESPONSE: Everyone should be protected from discrimination and should have the right to be treated fairly in employment and in other areas of life. The Equality Bill recognises and protects people’s rights to hold and manifest religious belief. It also protects gay men, lesbians and bisexual people from being discriminated against. Where such rights have the potential to come into conflict, the Bill strikes an appropriate balance between them.

The Equality Bill will not change the existing legal position regarding churches and employment. It clarifies the existing law to ensure a balance is maintained between the rights of people to manifest their religion and the right of employees not to be discriminated against because of a protected characteristic such as sexual orientation.

In the case of Ministers of Religion and other jobs which exist to promote and represent religion, the Bill recognises that a church may need to impose requirements regarding sexual orientation, sex, marriage and civil partnership or gender reassignment if it is necessary to comply with its teachings or the strongly held beliefs of followers. However, it would not be right to permit such requirements across all jobs within organised religions, such as administrators and accountants, and the Equality Bill makes this clear.

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In other words, this is basically the same as the law already in place, and the only requirement to refrain from discriminating against gays is in secular jobs. Does not sound unreasonable to me.

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Government should not be telling religion what they should be doing in regards to their religious practices, of which who their priest is is one.

It amazes me that people who bitch and moan at some on the right who are way overboard in calling for the restrictions and action against the more archaic beliefs of Islam have no issue jumping on the bandwagon of putting restrictiosn and action against Christianity.

Actually no, it doesn't amaze me, which is even sadder.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Zyphlin said:

Government should not be telling religion what they should be doing in regards to their religious practices, of which who their priest is is one.

It amazes me that people who bitch and moan at some on the right who are way overboard in calling for the restrictions and action against the more archaic beliefs of Islam have no issue jumping on the bandwagon of putting restrictiosn and action against Christianity.

Actually no, it doesn't amaze me, which is even sadder.

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In the case of Ministers of Religion and other jobs which exist to promote and represent religion, the Bill recognises that a church may need to impose requirements regarding sexual orientation, sex, marriage and civil partnership or gender reassignment if it is necessary to comply with its teachings or the strongly held beliefs of followers. However, it would not be right to permit such requirements across all jobs within organised religions, such as administrators and accountants, and the Equality Bill makes this clear

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Muslims will also be answerable to these laws. It's not like it applies only to Christians.
If a Mosque employer is caught discriminating against a Gay person for the position of an accountant because of their sexuality. The consequences will be the same

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

reefedjib said:

I don't disagree, but the point here is that it DOES affect the job.

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But it doesn't as Red has pointed out in the above post. The bill recognises exceptions

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:

Muslims will also be answerable to these laws. It's not like it applies only to Christians.
If a Mosque employer is caught discriminating against a Gay person for the position of an accountant because of their sexuality. The consequences will be the same

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True, however the focus on it for everyone in this thread is on Christians, more specifically the catholics.

I have little doubt if this thread started as "Muslims Cleric launches attack....." because of them being forced to not discriminate in ways against women that there'd be some on here lauding this because they dislike the pope/christianity would be saying how its just bigoted anti-islamic fearmongering. At the same time, sadly, I imagine some trying to defend the pople would also be saying how its good they're finally forcing them out of the dark ages or some such idiocy.

When it comes to religion, often not just on this forum but anywhere on the net, I just haven't found many people who are consistant in their condemnation or views about things revolving around religions save for hardcore militant athiests who are consistant only in their utter contempt and hatred for it.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

jujuman13 said:

Link
BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

This from someone whose minions have sexually assaulted hundreds if not thousands of young children in their care.
Naturally all in the name of some archaic mumbo jumbo religion.

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This is just trolling since obviously the sexual abuse is NOT done in the name of Christianity.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Zyphlin said:

Government should not be telling religion what they should be doing in regards to their religious practices, of which who their priest is is one.

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And in the UK they are not, nor in any part of Europe.

But we do not give a free pass to "religion" on following the law and receiving the tax cuts and other breaks they get... they must follow the law of the land if they dont then dont expect to be given the generous tax relief and other status.. pretty simple.

This is all about an internal fight in the British religious community where one side wants women or/and gay priests (openly), and another more traditionalist side does not. It is these people who have brought into the frame the non discriminatory laws of the UK (and other places) not the government not the politicians.

It is now up to the court system if gets that far to deal with it.

What the Pope is doing is nothing but meddling in the local politics of various Christian sects in the UK because he fully sees that a ruling against the discriminatory practices can damage his hold over the Catholic Church in the UK and maybe around the world. Nothing more, nothing less.

It amazes me that people who bitch and moan at some on the right who are way overboard in calling for the restrictions and action against the more archaic beliefs of Islam have no issue jumping on the bandwagon of putting restrictiosn and action against Christianity.

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What restrictions on Christianity? how are we actively discriminating against Christianity and not doing the same for say Islam or Judiasim? I fully agree we have laws in place that put big ass walls between religion, politics and even daily life, but out right discriminatory laws and rules that "forbid" something done in the privacy of the home or church I have a hard time seeing. If they want to discriminate against women, gays, jews, muslims what ever..they are free to do so, as long as they dont expect to be given tax breaks and such then.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ah, that said, I misread the thing Redress posted. This DOESN'T apply to priests and such, but to their accountants and things of the sort?

Hmm, I still dislike this as in principle its still interfering with religion, but this is a much more nebulous gray area. Hm, not sure how I feel on this one.

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:

Exactly! If they're qualified, you can't reject them because you don't like their religion or sexual orientation. That part is none of your business and if you don't like it, then you have to give up your tax subsidies.

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Total and utter nonsense, since it violates freedom of association. The people that go to those churches are also taxpayers so they that the right to reject such a person.