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Polls v. Fact

Geo Patric

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From an article in Business Week by Mike Dorning.... good stout financial conservative.

Polls say the economy is heading in the wrong direction. Markets say it's back on track. This time, the markets are right

While President Obama's overall job approval rating has fallen to a new low of 44%, according to a CBS News Poll, down five points from late March, the judgment of the financial indexes has turned resoundingly positive.

"There is more business confidence out there," says Boeing (BA) CEO Jim McNerney. "This Administration deserves significant credit."

It is worth stepping back to consider, in cool-headed policy terms, how all of this came to be—and whether the Obama team's approach amounts to a set of successful emergency measures or a new economic philosophy: Obamanomics.

"When you take it all together, the response was massive, unprecedented, and ultimately successful," says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com (MCO). Even Obama critics like Phil Swagel, assistant Treasury secretary for economic policy under George W. Bush, acknowledge that White House policies have been successful. ".... their economic policies, including the stimulus, have helped move the economy in the right direction."

The early stages of an economic rebound do not bring political safe haven for Presidents. Obama, however, may now have reached a pivot point with the economy finally beginning to add jobs.

With seven months to go before midterm elections, and more than two years before Obama reaches his own reelection day, there's still time for the President's policies to swing to his political advantage. Again, follow the money: Consumer spending has been rising for five straight months. That may not last, but it suggests Obama is already on the right track with voters' wallets.

now, of couse, i cherry picked this article, but my pickings are representative. You can read the whole thing yourself, of course.

Why the Obama Plan Is Working - BusinessWeek

geo.
 
The markets are not as ok ad they say they are. I can see a correction coming if unemployment doesn't go down.

But regardless of whether Obama does a good job or not, conservatives will still find some way to bring him down.
 
From an article in Business Week by Mike Dorning.... good stout financial conservative.

Right now the government is trying to figure out which companies get what part of the stimulus package. Bids like those take months of investigation. As a guess, I would say winners will be announced 4 months before the election.

ricksfolly
 
the point is that while the american public moans, the economy is rising daily. You can check it out yourself. Bloomberg (hardly a "liberal mouthpiece") posts daily updates.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BFCIUS:IND

part of the problem is that there are people out there with the ears of the american public who are simply lying through their teeth for political purposes.

geo.
 
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the point is that while the american public moans, the economy is rising daily. You can check it out yourself. Bloomberg (hardly a "liberal mouthpiece") posts daily updates.
BFCIUS: US Financial Conditions Summary - Bloomberg

part of the problem is that there are people out there with the ears of the american public who are simply lying through their teeth for political purposes.
geo.
Funny.... as the economy improved 2002-2003-2004, those supposedly 'lying thru their teeth' were those that claimed the economy was indeed improving, as proven by X Y and Z.

But then, GWB was a Republican, and there was an election coming up.
 
1. 4.5 million foreclosures coming in 2010, sixty percent more than in awful 09

2. half those "helped" by hamp have already re-defaulted

3. new jobless claims rose 18,000 for the week ending april 3

4. at&t, verizon and the other megacorps have had to book an extra billion dollars or so just to pay for obamacare, just to stay in business, not a single new hire

5. interest on the debt alone is to approach a full trillion dollars a year in just over 5 years

6. consumer confidence is near an all time low

7. foreigners are dumping us debt in record amounts

8. gas prices are rising and threatening $4 per gallon

9. 86% of americans describe our economy as in crisis

10. our largest and most expensive states are billions underwater

11. public pensions are short hundreds of B's

12. personal income fell 3.2% since obama took over

do you want the links?

LOL!
 
There's a reason I don't put liberal or conservative as a political lean, because I'm better described as a pragmatist. What works, and what doesn't. What do statistics and science tell us, opinions are useless. Even asking things like "approve" or "disapprove" lead to inherent flaws, because unless you get extremely specific in asking the question you leave so much open to interpretation.

Do I approve or disapprove of President Obama? Well, gee, I approve of some of the things he's been doing, and I disapprove of some of the other things he's been doing. On which issue? On which PART of which issue? If you don't specify, the person you're asking is going to choose of their own accord. Plus, disapprove and approve are such generic terms. I "disapprove" of the health care bill, for instance, but for entirely different reason than your average Tea Party protester, and my opinion on it is not nearly as passionate. I slightly disapprove, and some people are downright livid.

It gets even worse when you ask people about things they're not qualified to even comment on. Is the economy improving? What the hell do I know? I'm just some dude from Minnesota. Is Global Warming real? That's like asking for an "opinion" on whether the sky is blue. It either is or it isn't, my personal opinion can be right or wrong.
 
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Funny.... as the economy improved 2002-2003-2004, those supposedly 'lying thru their teeth' were those that claimed the economy was indeed improving, as proven by X Y and Z.

But then, GWB was a Republican, and there was an election coming up.

well, you are welcome to demonstrate that... both that the economy improved and that some the one that said it was improving were lying...
The years 1994-2000 witnessed solid increases in real output, low inflation rates, and a drop in unemployment to below 5%. The year 2001 saw the end of boom psychology and performance, with output increasing only 0.3% and unemployment and business failures rising substantially.
oh... my....

well... it got LOTS better, yes?
Moderate recovery took place in 2002 with the GDP growth rate rising to 2.4%. A major short-term problem in first half 2002 was a sharp decline in the stock market, fueled in part by the exposure of dubious accounting practices in some major corporations.. . .. In 2003, growth in output and productivity and the recovery of the stock market to above 10,000 for the Dow Jones Industrial Average were promising signs. Unemployment stayed at the 6% level, however, and began to decline only at the end of the year. Long-term problems include inadequate investment in economic infrastructure, rapidly rising medical and pension costs of an aging population, sizable trade and budget deficits, and stagnation of family income in the lower economic groups.
in other words, it went up a lil, down a lil.... and then down some more.... and then down a bunch.

if you have your own set of X, Y, Z... we would love to see 'em. Now, i do not recall anyone saying that anyone was lying about what happened at this time. If you know better, please... feel free to throw stones.

geo.
 
From an article in Business Week by Mike Dorning.... good stout financial conservative.



now, of couse, i cherry picked this article, but my pickings are representative. You can read the whole thing yourself, of course.

Why the Obama Plan Is Working - BusinessWeek

geo.

Is it just by chance that the two people you quoted rely on the Federal government to keep their companies in business.

Moody's should have been shuttered once we learned of the lousy job they did rating the mortgage debt.

Boeing is among, if not the largest defense contractor in the U.S.

We have all seen what happens to detractors of this President. How do you think they would comment.

As you said cherrypicking quotes is hardly what anyone would consider reasoned evidence of a discussion point.
 
Is it just by chance that the two people you quoted rely on the Federal government to keep their companies in business.

Personally, i dunno Moodys from Moses. I didn't pick them. The well respected financial news publication, Business Week quoted their own sources.

Moody's should have been shuttered once we learned of the lousy job they did rating the mortgage debt.

yeah... just Moodys was guilty of making bad financial estimates... Not Like Washington Mutual, fr'istance, who the ongoing Senate Investigation is accusing of knowingly defrauding both consumers and investors.
Boeing is among, if not the largest defense contractor in the U.S.

thanks for the tip. I think i may have heard that before... a charming nonsequitor, even so.
We have all seen what happens to detractors of this President. How do you think they would comment.
yes? and what has happened? put in stocks? or maybe, in the vein of Nixon and Bush, had the FBI sicced of em? as for how they would comment, the floor is all yours, brother... quote whom you like.
As you said cherrypicking quotes is hardly what anyone would consider reasoned evidence of a discussion point.

THAT is not what i said. I admitted pulling from the article those things which i thought made the point that i wanted to make - that public confidence notwithstanding, the economy is coming back nicely. THAT is true.

I also provided a link to the article. Do you think that the selections I made are NOT representative of the article in whole? Do your own homework. FInd those things that i omitted that would make your point.

Don't strain yourself, though.

geo.
 
Convenient, and expected.

you are wise, oh goobieman, in expecting people to deny seeing any evidence of a claim for which you decline to provide any evidence.

i am humbled by your profound foresight.

geo.
 
Personally, i dunno Moodys from Moses. I didn't pick them. The well respected financial news publication, Business Week quoted their own sources.



yeah... just Moodys was guilty of making bad financial estimates... Not Like Washington Mutual, fr'istance, who the ongoing Senate Investigation is accusing of knowingly defrauding both consumers and investors.


thanks for the tip. I think i may have heard that before... a charming nonsequitor, even so.

yes? and what has happened? put in stocks? or maybe, in the vein of Nixon and Bush, had the FBI sicced of em? as for how they would comment, the floor is all yours, brother... quote whom you like.


THAT is not what i said. I admitted pulling from the article those things which i thought made the point that i wanted to make - that public confidence notwithstanding, the economy is coming back nicely. THAT is true.

I also provided a link to the article. Do you think that the selections I made are NOT representative of the article in whole? Do your own homework. FInd those things that i omitted that would make your point.

Don't strain yourself, though.

geo.

I won't strain myself debating such finely honed debating points.

Yes, the economy is getting better. If you follow the way business cycles work, what did you expect???
 
Funny.... as the economy improved 2002-2003-2004, those supposedly 'lying thru their teeth' were those that claimed the economy was indeed improving, as proven by X Y and Z.

But then, GWB was a Republican, and there was an election coming up.

Compare the 13 months after the 2003 Bush tax cuts went into effect, with the 13 months after the Obama stimulus package was signed, and there's a couple of glaring differences.

Unemployment
Bush - Down 0.7%
Obama - Up 1.5%

Jobs Created
Bush - 1,601,000 Created
Obama - 3,073,000 Lost

Today, the main stream media is gushing with positive stories and hope, yet back then, you would have been hard pressed to find a positive economic story from the main stream media.

What a difference a "D" in the White House makes.

.
 
I won't strain myself debating such finely honed debating points.

glad to hear it... there is enough stress on us all these days.
Yes, the economy is getting better. If you follow the way business cycles work, what did you expect???

yes. business cycles. i love that argument from conservatives NOW. that business cycled DOWNward for the first year and change was m. Obama's fault. That is cycles UPward now is the "invisible hand".

yeah, well, the business bike is driven. It don't drive itself. Right now, stocks and manufacturing are driving it (the banks are laying low). Some bikes are in motion and defying the laws of gravity due to considerable pedaling on the part of business and in part, due to the efforts of this administration to get the obstacles outta the way.

geo.
 
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glad to hear it... there is enough stress on us all these days.


yes. business cycles. i love that argument from conservatives NOW. that business cycled DOWNward for the first year and change was m. Obama's fault. That is cycles UPward now is the "invisible hand".

yeah, well, the business bike is driven. It don't drive itself. Right now, stocks and manufacturing are driving it (the banks are laying low). Some bikes are in motion and defying the laws of gravity due to considerable pedaling on the part of business and in part, due to the efforts of this administration to get the obstacles outta the way.

geo.

Just to put one misconception out of the way. I am a lifelong NE democrat. So just because someone wants to talk about something factual does not mean they have a certain political view.

That is what I am finding so disturbing from the liberal kids today. They seem closeminded and very defensive when it comes to critisizing their ideas. Makes this forum pretty boring sometimes.

Not being able to have an intelligent debate on the merits of discussion. Just partisan BS.

Do you think this lack of critical thinking is a result of poor schooling or just the people who join an internet debate forum?
 
Oh, I do not think it is just "today". Certainly i was as given to simply accepting the prevailing cultural predicates as a young person. I (we?) may have been lucky to come of age in a era of intense political turmoil. I was of the first generation to vote at 18 (i turned 18 in '72) and had, as the Dem nominee one of the most liberal of liberals to elect. Geo McGovern must be somewhere in the vicinity of 300 years old now and i would STILL vote for him. I was pleased to see that he has formed a relationship, of sorts, with m. Obama.

informed discussion is pretty rare, now and in the past. it is a shame, as we end up depending on people (politicians) with their own agendas to make all our decisions for us. But, part of Liberty is being free to let others do your thinking for you.

partisan to be sure... but, for all our belaboring the notion of 'the individual' we are in fact intensely social animals, and our social model is hierarchical. we EXPECT people to tell us what to think and do.
Do you think this lack of critical thinking is a result of poor schooling or just the people who join an internet debate forum?

ha.... well, i think it predates the internet. not so much poor as insufficient schooling, insufficient emphasis on learning. In fact, we here in the U.S. have a prevailing subculture that disdains intellect. Being "smart" is considered a negative trait... which is why we have a guy like Bill Clinton playing "Bubba" to the masses.

oh well... whaddya gonna do? Except keep fighting.

geo.
 
[QUOTE

ha.... well, i think it predates the internet. not so much poor as insufficient schooling, insufficient emphasis on learning. In fact, we here in the U.S. have a prevailing subculture that disdains intellect. Being "smart" is considered a negative trait... which is why we have a guy like Bill Clinton playing "Bubba" to the masses.

oh well... whaddya gonna do? Except keep fighting.

geo.[/QUOTE]

I sent my son to a private school so he would not have to feel out of place for being a good student.

My point about this type of internet board is that one does not know who is on the other end.
 
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