Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

EMNofSeattle · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

bicycleman said:
Mostly that's how it happens, whereas the other way around, groups of blacks can run around, murdering whites at random and never be charged with hate crimes. There is a double standard, here.

Dude seriously, you know nothing of which you speak. Murdering someone at random cannot be a hate crime by definition. The vast majority of transracial murders are not charged as hate crimes, there's a substantial burden a prosecutor must met to prove that.

In most states it's not even a separate crime, just an aggravating factor

Hatuey · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

jmotivator said:
It's called Homicidal Ideation and is Classified under the ICD-10, Chapter 5: Mental and Behavioral Disorders, F05 Non-Substance-induced Delerium.

Lmao, it's almost like you plucked something out of thin air and decided to apply it to this guy. Did you even bother to do basic research on this term other than copying what you read on the Wiki page? Homicidal ideation is not a mental illness itself. It's basically having thoughts about committing a homicide. The motives behind this include (as cite by that Wiki page you wouldn't source) revenge from actually just planning it out.

Oh irony.

Lol? Get serious.

TurtleDude · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

PoS said:
Funny how right wingers love to say Muslims are threats yet more people in America have been killed by right wing attacks than Muslim extremists since 9/11. Condolences to the victims.

you know that the killer is a right winger already?

sheeesh

clownboy · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

There is only ONE reason we have crimes listed as hate crimes - so the feds can involve themselves in state prosecutions where they normally would have no say.

nota bene · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

This sounds sadly familiar--"[Uncle Carson]Cowles said he recognized Roof in a photo released by police, and described him as quiet and soft-spoken."..."Nobody in my family had seen anything like this coming"..."too introverted"..."I said he was like 19 years old, he still didn't have a job, a driver's license or anything like that and he just stayed in his room a lot of the time."

South Carolina church shooting suspect got gun for birthday, uncle says

blackjack50 · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
You still have nothing to substantiate this. What mental illness does he have? Schizophrenia? Bipolar Disorder? No, jmotivator. You don't get to decide who is crazy or not based on the situation and what is politically convenient. :shrug:

You realize that he likely DOES have some form of illness and it may not be diagnosed? Most mass shooters do. I wonder if he was on any kind of medicines?

Fearandloathing · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Gimmesometruth said:
Again, like so many cons, you stay focused on "punishment" and continue to avoid motivation.

You keep proving my point.

Con?

oops, you just made a huge ass out of yourself.

I am not and never have been a conservative, the closest I ever came was voting for the Conservative Party of Canada. I am, for the 1,987,995th time, a card carrying member of the Liberal Party of Canada. Since the early 90's I have been advocating a move off the punishment model in regards to minor crime. I have supported community courts and helped bring them about five years ahead of the first one in the Excited States.

I have advocated for single sex marriage sine the late 1990's and have attended two. I have been a supporter of Universal Health Care all my life, and am now advocating for legal marijuana across the country.

So, in what has become a daily experience here at Trolls R Us, I am, again wrongfully labeled a "con" by yet another Amerikan liberal, showing just how clued in they are not.

When the Amerikan liberal play pen wakes up and discover what "liberal" really means, I will try to find some respect, until then and with daily wrongs like this, don't count on it.

blackjack50 · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

clownboy said:
There is only ONE reason we have crimes listed as hate crimes - so the feds can involve themselves in state prosecutions where they normally would have no say.

Can you really define this as anything else though?

Hatuey · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

stonewall50 said:
You realize that he likely DOES have some form of illness and it may not be diagnosed? Most mass shooters do. I wonder if he was on any kind of medicines?

I don't know. What I do know is that claiming that he was mentally ill at this point is premature and completely unfounded. His lawyer has labelled him as a normal kid. He's obviously not an authority on the kid's psyche, but neither is some guy on the internet plucking whatever term he got from WebMD. So as it stands, there is nothing to suggest that this was anything other than premeditated murder.

Goshin · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
You still have nothing to substantiate this. What mental illness does he have? Schizophrenia? Bipolar Disorder? No, jmotivator. You don't get to decide who is crazy or not based on the situation and what is politically convenient. :shrug:

A lot of people who do things like this are mentally ill in some sense, and the temptation to quickly say "he's insane!" is common. Most of us who can't imagine doing something so heinous want to quickly classify it as something "not related to any of us!" It's a natural human trait to want to distance one's self from such atrocity.

And it isn't a bad guess... most mass shooters have had SOME kind of mental issues, though many were found sufficiently competent to stand trial.

I think what a lot of us mean when we say "he's crazy!" is really: "That guy does NOT think like a normal human being."

This is true. He may be mentally ill or he may just be an evil monster, but he doesn't think like most of us if he can convince himself that such a massacre is a good thing to do.

I believe many mass murderers are mentally ill... but I believe some are indeed "evil monsters". That in itself is a question-begging term of course... what makes a man into an evil monster? Something broken inside that isn't working right; something that tells most people "Hey man, you don't want to do that." Some are born broken, some are broken by an event in their life that they couldn't cope with, or in some cases they embraced an ideology that required them to break inside.

What's broken? Their conscience and empathy. Their ability to see their targets as human beings and feel for their pain and fear. Sometimes this is a "selective" break, where their empathy is shut off towards a group labeled "the enemy" but not others... this is usually the case where they were broken by an ideological construct, or where they are motivated by revenge against a specific target group.

Now I'm no shrink... this is just my opinion based on fifty years of observing the human condition, some of it as a cop seeing some bad **** and wondering how anyone could do such a thing... but I think I'm not far wrong.

HowardBThiname · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
And yet, you can't seem to post anything to substantiate your views. Show us these radically different procedures for dealing with a suspect. Please? Enough chit-chat, time to start posting sources.

There's rarely a good enough to jar a conspiracy theorist from his connivance du jour. Keep pulling the the tin-hat wagon train and when you're ready to learn - start with this report.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf

Fearandloathing · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
I don't know. What I do know is that claiming that he was mentally ill at this point is premature and completely unfounded. His lawyer has labelled him as a normal kid. He's obviously not an authority on the kid's psyche, but neither is some guy on the internet plucking whatever term he got from WebMD. So as it stands, there is nothing to suggest that this was anything other than premeditated murder.

No you don't and neither does anyone else in this forum.

Nothing is "known" all is speculation and rumor, period.

blackjack50 · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
I don't know. What I do know is that claiming that he was mentally ill at this point is premature and completely unfounded. His lawyer has labelled him as a normal kid. He's obviously not an authority on the kid's psyche, but neither is some guy on the internet plucking whatever term he got from WebMD. So as it stands, there is nothing to suggest that this was anything other than premeditated murder.

Premeditated does not mean he is NOT mentally ill. Again I am going on probabilities here. It is a very high likelihood. I can't think of any stable mass shooters.

Kobie · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Gunman Quoted as Saying: “I Have to Do It.” - NYTimes.com

Sylvia Johnson, one of the Rev. Clementa Pinckney’s cousins, said in an interview with NBC that she had spoken with one of the survivors of the shooting, who gave her this account.

The gunman arrived at the church and asked for the pastor, taking a seat next to him for the study meeting. At the end, the survivor told Ms. Johnson, they suddenly heard loud noises. The gunman had opened fire, and reloaded five times.

“Her son was trying to talk him out of doing the act of killing people,” Ms. Johnson said.

According to Ms. Johnson, the survivor said the gunman replied.

“He just said: ‘I have to do it. You rape our women and you are taking over our country. And you have to go.’ “

Sounds racially motivated to me.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
A lot of people on FB add people for no reason at all. He may have just added people he wanted to "creep on" (that's a FB term).

I dunno man, they all seem like classmates or something.

Just odd ****, not really reading much into it.

HowardBThiname · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

iliveonramen said:
I hear this a lot but our laws are littered with laws that depend on thoughts or motivations. Accidentally killing someone or killing someone intentionally. The person is dead, but the thought processes and motivations are different and they carry different sentences. A crime of passion vs premeditated murder. Attempted murder is based on your intent, you wanted to murder that person. They aren't dead, but you meant for them to die.

If you only punish the crime then there is murder and there is assault. There's no such thing as manslaughter and there's no such thing as attempted murder because neither of those are possible without analyzing the intentions and thought process of the person that committed the crime.

"Intent" is littered all over our justice system and intent is a punishment against thoughts. No one carried through, they intended to though.

I understand that - but there's a clear cut defense to be made when someone commits a crime accidentally. Or, when he's not in control of his mental state. We use those situations as defenses to judicial punishment.

The difference with labeling something as a "hate crime" is that we're trying to pile more punishment on because of intent. It's not being used as a defense. What we need to do - in my opinion - is drop hate crime tagging and charge all crimes the same. If there are aggravating circumstances, they can be presented in the courtroom.

Kreton · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
Can you point to where they're being posted so we can check them out? This is actually really interesting.

If you go his FB page, and click on his friends list, apparently lots of people are bugging those people. I was clicking through them. I think FB killed his page. This guy is still in my history, but i did a bunch on my phone. https://www.facebook.com/raymond.t.carter?fref=nf He put up a pic from the guys profile with confederate plates.

Hatuey · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Goshin said:
A lot of people who do things like this are mentally ill in some sense, and the temptation to quickly say "he's insane!" is common. Most of us who can't imagine doing something so heinous want to quickly classify it as something "not related to any of us!" It's a natural human trait to want to distance one's self from such atrocity.

And it isn't a bad guess... most mass shooters have had SOME kind of mental issues, though many were found sufficiently competent to stand trial.

I think what a lot of us mean when we say "he's crazy!" is really: "That guy does NOT think like a normal human being."

This is true. He may be mentally ill or he may just be an evil monster, but he doesn't think like most of us if he can convince himself that such a massacre is a good thing to do.

I believe many mass murderers are mentally ill... but I believe some are indeed "evil monsters". That in itself is a question-begging term of course... what makes a man into an evil monster? Something broken inside that isn't working right; something that tells most people "Hey man, you don't want to do that." Some are born broken, some are broken by an event in their life that they couldn't cope with, or in some cases they embraced an ideology that required them to break inside.

What's broken? Their conscience and empathy. Their ability to see their targets as human beings and feel for their pain and fear. Sometimes this is a "selective" break, where their empathy is shut off towards a group labeled "the enemy" but not others... this is usually the case where they were broken by an ideological construct, or where they are motivated by revenge against a specific target group.

Now I'm no shrink... this is just my opinion based on fifty years of observing the human condition, some of it as a cop seeing some bad **** and wondering how anyone could do such a thing... but I think I'm not far wrong.

You're right, you're no shrink. So I'll go with shrinks on this one:

Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings | Research News @ Vanderbilt | Vanderbilt University

When a mass shooting occurs, there seems to be a familiar narrative that untreated mental illness is the primary cause for the terrifying act. But a new study published in the American Journal of Public Health by Dr. Jonathan Metzl and Kenneth T. MacLeish finds that an isolated focus on mental illness is misguided.

“Gun discourse after mass shootings often perpetuates the fear that ‘some crazy person is going to come shoot me,’” said Metzl, the study’s lead author. “But if you look at the research, it’s not the ‘crazy’ person you have to fear.”
Mentally ill not violent

They found that despite societal pre-conceived notions, most mentally ill people are not violent.

“Fewer than 5 percent of the 120,000 gun-related killings in the United States between 2001 and 2010 were perpetrated by people diagnosed with mental illness,” they write.

From the study itself:

A number of studies also suggest that stereo-types of “violent madmen”invert on-the-ground realities. Nestor theorizes that serious mental illnesses such as schizophrenia actually reduce the risk of violence over time, as the illnesses are in many cases marked by social isolation and withdrawal. [43] Brekke et al. illustrate that the
risk is exponentially greater that individuals diagnosed with serious mental illness will be assaulted by others, rather than the other way around. Their extensive surveys of police incident reports demonstrate that, far from posing threats to others, people diagnosed with schizophrenia have victimization rates 65% to 130% higher than those of the general pub-lic.[44]

Is There A Link Between Mental Health and Gun Violence? - The New Yorker

When Swanson first analyzed the ostensible connection between violence and mental illness, looking at more than ten thousand individuals (both mentally ill and healthy) during the course of one year, he found that serious mental illness alone was a risk factor for violence—from minor incidents, like shoving, to armed assault—in only four per cent of cases.

That being said, I'm simply saying that there is no evidence that he's mentally ill as of yet. That doesn't make him less of a murderer. I'm just saying there is nothing to suggest that he's mentally ill and simply pointing at the people he killed and where he killed them doesn't change that. The reasons he stated for murdering those people were - if nothing else - political. His arguments have been heard around DP more than once. So all we have is that he murdered people, and he did it because he thought they were responsible for some crime against his people. That's not an indication of mental illness.

jmotivator · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
Lmao, it's almost like you plucked something out of thin air and decided to apply it to this guy. Did you even bother to do basic research on this term other than copying what you read on the Wiki page? Homicidal ideation is not a mental illness itself. It's basically having thoughts about committing a homicide. The motives behind this include (as cite by that Wiki page you wouldn't source) revenge from actually just planning it out.

It is a mental illness on the Delirium spectrum that people are treated for.

It is classified on the ICD-10, sorry that you have such a problem with that.

Lol? Get serious.

Oh, I am very serious that it is ironic that in the post where you accuse me of trying to "decide who is crazy or not" you have decided he's not crazy. :roll:

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Hatuey said:
Friends on FB mean absolutely nothing about a person's views on a specific topic.

I dunno, If I was an aryan warrior for the "master race", I'd probably purge my non-white "friends"....

Wiggen · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Goshin said:
It seems probable that this was a racially-motivated incident, but we don't know much yet TMK.

However there is a certain irony that after Fort Hood, where a man of Middle Eastern descent shot several people, the government and media were immediately saying "It's not terrorism!" before there's ANY way they could know that... but today the government and media are crying "hate crime!" loud and clear, before there's any way they could know that for certain. :doh

funny, I don't remember much talk about the Fort Hood attack not being terrorism. It clearly was terrorism.

This asshole was a white supremacist. Hard not to label this a hate crime, at least for anybody who is rational and can add 2 + 2 and get 4.

Hatuey · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

HowardBThiname said:
There's rarely a good enough to jar a conspiracy theorist from his connivance du jour.

Data on use of force has nothing to do with actual policies across different departments. If you're going to waste forum bandwidth, you should at least make an effort.

ReverendHellh0und · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Wiggen said:
funny, I don't remember much talk about the Fort Hood attack not being terrorism. It clearly was terrorism.

This asshole was a white supremacist. Hard not to label this a hate crime, at least for anybody who is rational and can add 2 + 2 and get 4.

It's still downplayed as terrorism

poweRob · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

the gunman reloaded fives times and told a victim, “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

Cousin of Charleston Pastor: Shooter Said

Goshin · Jun 18, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Wiggen said:
funny, I don't remember much talk about the Fort Hood attack not being terrorism. It clearly was terrorism.

This asshole was a white supremacist. Hard not to label this a hate crime, at least for anybody who is rational and can add 2 + 2 and get 4.

Well then your memory is faulty. Yes to MOST of us ordinary folks it was obviously terrorism.... but the government and the press were shouting "NOT terrorism!" before the bodies were even cold, and maintained this assertion for a very long time... if I'm not mistaken, there were even delays in issuing purple hearts and similar citations because it was classified as a crime and not injury-in-the-line-of-duty.

Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

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