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Planned Parenthood is evil[W:1642]

Doesn't saying breaking up in to pieces or removing a "fetus" in one piece that's has developed to the point it's head is too large bother you? So, it's safe to say that these procedures are never done on demand anywhere?

In the USA "partial birth" (Intact D and Es ) are no longer legal.
Now they have to crush the skulls and remove the fetus in pieces between 16 to 20 weeks gestation instead of removing the fetus intact, or whole.
 
Then stop assigning false motives, ignorant conceptions and other demonization of the 'other'. The suppression of metaphysical expression is low class and authoritarian.

The only people on these threads who assign false motives, ignorant conceptions, and demonization of the 'other" are the anti-choice people (not to be confused with pro-life people who are nonetheless legally pro-choice).
 
You need to remember this is a discussion and I can't do dammit. I think you should read the quote I responded to before you flip out. How much iragie oil have we taken? Do we control the oil production it Iraq? Ask your self some questions and quit listening to the leftist knuckleheads.

The reason Bush and Cheney could not get the deal on oil that they expected is because they totally misread the situation. Bush kept saying at the start that this invasion was a no-brainer. He expected us to be welcomed. But we invaded, caused lots of civilian casualties and millions of people were forced to become refugees. Then the elections. When the first presidential choice was made, Bush didn't like the result and made them do it a second time and then a third. Some democracy. He thought that he had finally gotten an Iraqi president who would give him the deal, but of course he didn't. No one in that position would have after all that nonsense.
 
So, you're saying the only late term abortions or partial birth abortions are performed in emergency situations?

No, I'm saying that emergency situations are pretty much the only ones in which late term abortions are performed.

No one performs so-called partial birth abortions in the US except criminals: they are illegal.
 
Partial birth abortions are banned and most were not late term abortions they used a different abortion after 24 weeks gestation because the skull is too large by that point.

The intact D and E ( intact dilation and extraction ) procedure was used as means of extracting a pre viable fetus usually between 16 and 20 weeks gestation intact. That is in one piece instead of breaking it up in the womb and removing it in pieces.
They found there was less damage to the woman's cervix when it removed intact instead of being broken into pieces.

But pro life lawmakers decided to call the intact D and E a partial birth abortion so they could pass a law against it.
------------------
Yes, legal late term abortions are only used in extreme cases.

Late term abortions are very complicated and take much skill.
The risk to the woman's life is high.
Therefore the risk from the pregnancy has to greater to the women than the risk from a late term abortion for any ethical doctor to perform an a term late abortion.

minnie, your description of D&E doesn't sound like what I have read, e.g., Intact dilation and extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Otherwise, I like your post.
 
Let the games begin....

This seems to explain, at least in part, the differences I see in the subjective ethical interpretation of scientific facts.

Another argument for ethical cognitivism stands on the close resemblance between ethics and other normative matters, such as games. As much as morality, games consist of norms (or rules), but it would be hard to accept that it be not true that the chessplayer who checkmates the other one wins the game. If statements about game rules can be true or false, why not ethical statements? One answer is that we may want ethical statements to be categorically true, while we only need statements about right action to be contingent on the acceptance of the rules of a particular game - that is, the choice to play the game according to a given set of rules.


If we can say that differing faiths are different games, then we are not all playing by the same rules. It doesn't show any particular "faith" right or wrong, only that these are different and subjected to the rules of that particular faith.
So no faith can factually state a fact about their faith (their game rules), but all can acknowledge empirical evidence or observable facts.

Does this help you understand where I am coming from?

Cognitivism (ethics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
minnie, your description of D&E doesn't sound like what I have read, e.g., Intact dilation and extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Otherwise, I like your post.

The fetus is removed intact during an intact dialation and extraction.

Ihe brain and material inside the skull has been evacuated, so the fetus is dead dead but otherwise the intact fetus is then delivered via the vagina.

Intact dilation and extraction

Intact dilation and extraction (IDX) is a surgical abortion wherein an intact fetus is removed from the uterus via the cervix. It is also known as intact dilation and evacuation, dilation and extraction (D&X, or DNX), intrauterine cranial decompression and, vernacularly
in the United States, as partial birth abortion.
The procedure may also be used to remove a deceased fetus that is developed enough to require dilation of the cervix for its extraction.[1]

<SNIP>

Intact D&X surgery
Under the Intact D&X method, the largest part of the fetus (the head) is reduced in diameter to allow vaginal passage. According to the American Medical Association, this procedure has four main elements.[3] First, the cervix is dilated. Second, the fetus is positioned for a footling breech. Third, the fetus is partially pulled out, starting with the feet, as far as the neck. Fourth, the brain and material inside the skull is evacuated, so that a dead but otherwise intact fetus can be delivered via the vagina.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Intact_dilation_and_extraction.htm
 
Actually I think you have misunderstood me. Please don't recount the entire biology again ChoiceOne. I am not taking issue with it. I'll take your word that it is accurate, if not in fact, then in intent. I don't disagree.

But I am not trying to say the unborn child has a life of it's own in complete separation from the woman. I am saying it is a unique human person. Not a separate and self sustaining person. It's body is not part of the woman's body (I am not saying it shares nothing with the woman, it obviously does. It's DNA is that of a unique human being, regardless of stage of growth. It is such from the start. That is the scientific differentiation between the child person and the woman person.
The courts do not recognize the person-hood of the child. I understand that. That is why I am here posting my opinions. I am developing a discussion that we hope some day will sway the courts to recognize the child.
This is the American process.

And I'm trying to say that because it doesn't have a life of its own in complete separation from the woman's life, it is not a person, even though it may have unique DNA and be human. Because it is biologically connected to the physiology of the woman, I can't draw a boundary around it and say, this is separate and is "a" human.

In the case of most conjoined twins, I can say that two distinct heads, each with a capacity for sustaining the body without the help of the other, means that each has an equal claim on that body and each deserves to be called a person. But in the case of a host twin and a parasitic twin completely contained within the host, the host can sustain the body and the parasitic twin can't, but rather is sustained by the host. Nobody objects when parasitic twins are removed from host twins, because parasitic twins are not persons.

To me, if the organisms are not completely separate, then there has to be proof that each one can live separately from the other for there to be two humans, not to say human beings. I'd say the same for cows, pigs, sheep, horses, elephants, mice, etc.: a murine embryo is not a mouse.

DNA is not the only criterion for species, let alone membership in a species: genotype and phenotype or morphology are both considered. A human embryo has an incomplete morphology that does not qualify it for being "a" human in my book, but only a human embryo. A fetus has gone through organogenesis, but an embryo hasn't. A viable fetus has gone through sufficient organ development that it could be sustained if removed. However, it has not had sufficient brain development to exhibit a distinctively human EEG. So for me, even a fetus is only in the process of becoming a human.

If it can be removed and sustained by something other than the woman's body, I can see why some claim it is "a" human even though it hasn't been removed, but before that? The woman's body hasn't finished constructing its body yet, which is why it has to be biologically attached to her.

What I'm saying is that DNA by itself is not a sufficient criterion for a human. It is a detailed outline or plan for making one, but the human doesn't come from just the plan, it comes from the actual making in pregnancy.

Sexual differentiation doesn't begin to develop until at least the seventh week. Hormonal conditions in the woman's uterus can actually result in a genetic male developing female sex organs or a genetic female developing male sex organs by the ninth or tenth weeks, though it is rare for the genetic and phenotypic sex to be fully opposed. When babies are born, it is not typical to find out what sex they are by doing a DNA test. Visual identification is used, and it is on that basis that they are claimed to be male or female and raised as boys or girls. Intersex people, in whom genotype and phenotype do not match, cannot all that easily be given a phenotype to match their genotype. That is one example of the significance of morphology.

Identical twin embryos have DNA so alike that, if the woman grows bodies for them and gives birth to them and they grow up, despite the genetic copy errors that occur in each body by the age of 30, the DNA of one of them from a crime scene could be forensically identify the other as a criminal. But those twins would each have unique fingerprints. Even as fetuses, after sufficient development, around the 17th week, their fingerprints would distinguish them clearly. I take this comparison as objective evidence of the significance of morphology.

That one cannot be human without human DNA is not the same as saying that human DNA is sufficient for being "a" human, let alone "a" human being, because one has to have a body with differentiated organs, etc., to exist outside the woman's body. And you do not have to have unique DNA to be unique, because having a sufficiently developed body can provide more conclusive evidence of uniqueness than forensic identification of DNA.
 
This seems to explain, at least in part, the differences I see in the subjective ethical interpretation of scientific facts.

Another argument for ethical cognitivism stands on the close resemblance between ethics and other normative matters, such as games. As much as morality, games consist of norms (or rules), but it would be hard to accept that it be not true that the chessplayer who checkmates the other one wins the game. If statements about game rules can be true or false, why not ethical statements? One answer is that we may want ethical statements to be categorically true, while we only need statements about right action to be contingent on the acceptance of the rules of a particular game - that is, the choice to play the game according to a given set of rules.


If we can say that differing faiths are different games, then we are not all playing by the same rules. It doesn't show any particular "faith" right or wrong, only that these are different and subjected to the rules of that particular faith.
So no faith can factually state a fact about their faith (their game rules), but all can acknowledge empirical evidence or observable facts.

Does this help you understand where I am coming from?

Cognitivism (ethics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes. But the point of a secular government is that we all recognize that we aren't playing the same game ethically, so to speak, because of different faiths, so we have to make a legal Constitution and laws by which we all agree to keep playing the game together. And as I see it, the conservative compromise evident in the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v Wade was intended for a population that disagreed so fundamentally that the way to allow us to keep playing together was to let each woman decide in conjunction with her doctor until the point that a state could say that just removing the fetus was at least 50% likely to show that it had a life of its own and thus obviously had a right to it.
 
The appearance is mutual.

Well we can always go back to you making up Bible verses, "gospels," and trying to pass them off as real and sort it out from there.

Me: making up **** means you have no credibility.

You: <??>
 
Everything you said describes the science and the process well enough (I'll take your word anyway). But these scientific facts do not describe the human life within her. You are describing what you think the life within her is based on your understanding of these facts. You are making a judgement call.

What? And you 'believing' the fetus is something 'more', isnt judgement on your part? Or wishful thinking. It's something you cannot prove at all.

Science gives us facts. The law is based on that....not 'beliefs.'
 
I can't believe I am reading this. This is like saying you consent to a walk in the rain, but getting wet wasn't part of the plan.

OR...walking in the rain and knowing you have an umbrella *if you need it.*

Women today KNOW they have the option of an umbrella if they dont want to get wet. Thus, their decision to have sex takes that into consideration. They know they have options and thus do not consent.
 
The reason Bush and Cheney could not get the deal on oil that they expected is because they totally misread the situation. Bush kept saying at the start that this invasion was a no-brainer. He expected us to be welcomed. But we invaded, caused lots of civilian casualties and millions of people were forced to become refugees. Then the elections. When the first presidential choice was made, Bush didn't like the result and made them do it a second time and then a third. Some democracy. He thought that he had finally gotten an Iraqi president who would give him the deal, but of course he didn't. No one in that position would have after all that nonsense.

They ****ed up totally. And all these people here are angered over the termination of the *unborn?*

How about the deaths of 10's of thousands of our soldiers? For nothing. The thousands coming home mentally and physically damaged that will never be the same? I am angry as Hell over them...they are a Hell of a lot more important that fetuses...and yet...the excuses remain.

That doesnt even count the innocent civilian Iraqis killed......(they probably mean less than American fetuses too).
 
1. The assumptions you make are not reasonable. You seem to accept as a given that the man will always walk away from a pregnancy with absolutely no concern. When my wife was pregnant if affected me greatly in many ways. It was something I had to be concerned with, start to finish. I felt an impact in my life. I'll grant you, it isn't the same concern my wife had, but to say I was unaffected would be false.

2. Men are not your enemies here. A culture lacking a sense of responsibility is the cause for your great discontent. Abortion advocates fear a vote or action that will overturn Roe v. Wade. It is very unlikely. I feel so confident in that statement that I believe firmly we could all shut off the computer and not worry about the forum here or anything like it and nothing will change. If we see any relief for the unborn children being killed it will be from a cultural change.
3. It will be men and women coming together as a family and giving birth to children they want and will nurture because it is the right thing to do.
Right is based on God, not science. Man's or societies "right" is so far below par as to be disgusting. It is based on science.
Few will pass.

1. The statements I made are VERY reasonable, and many men DO bail on a woman right after she tells him she's pregnant. That's a fact, which right-wing guys often ignore. And you can claim you "felt an impact" regarding your wife's pregnancy all you want, I'm not buying it. You still did not feel the impact PERSONALLY, as you were NOT the woman who was pregnant.

2. Anti-choice men who want to REMOVE a woman's right to decide for herself about a pregnancy ARE the enemy here, at least as far as I'M concerned. Many of these guys are politicians who have made public statements like "contraception is not okay" (Santorum said precisely that in one interview), which is rather a glaring indicator that such a politician, if elected, would do whatever he could do to eliminate contraception or severely restrict access to it. That's enough cause for me NOT to give that guy MY vote.

3. Motherhood is OPTIONAL, not required. That means I can reject what I consider to be the burdens and miseries of motherhood because I don't ever want the 24/7 job. And other than whine and moan about women who refuse to reproduce, there's nothing you can do about it. Thank goodness for that.
 
All are religious, all of us. Some just won't believe in God. So religion is intrinsic to the issue. You can wish it weren't, but that does not change the reality.

NONSENSE. NOT all of us are religious, you're just stating a WISH that we all are. Sorry (not really), but just because you believe religion controls every issue doesn't mean it actually does. Beliefs AREN'T facts, in case you weren't aware of it.
 
I hope you read my post regarding how women were viewed when I was young. I had a friend in hs who ended up editing a famous writer's diaries and went to grad school and got her PhD in psychology and became a professional psychologist. But her mother thought and said that she was a completely worthless daughter because she didn't get married and have kids. That is not at all atypical, though thank God I didn't have a mother like that. In those days, many people only valued women for their sex organs, their sex acts, and their sexual reproduction. That you could have a brilliant intellect or great artistic talent or anything else had no value if you were a woman. For many people, women were just supposed to be obedient sexual flesh and that was their worth.

Exactly. The scary thing is, many people STILL believe women are supposed to be nothing more than mindless baby makers for the church or state. Such backward folks get really angry at women who refuse to reproduce for either entity.
 
The courts do not recognize the person-hood of the child. I understand that. That is why I am here posting my opinions. I am developing a discussion that we hope some day will sway the courts to recognize the child.
This is the American process.

In other words, you want to "sway the courts" to REMOVE a woman's right to decide for herself about a pregnancy by legally placing a fetus above the woman though some kind of "personhood" ruling that will either overrule or go around Roe v Wade. I definitely understand THAT.
 
And I'm trying to say that because it doesn't have a life of its own in complete separation from the woman's life, it is not a person, even though it may have unique DNA and be human. Because it is biologically connected to the physiology of the woman, I can't draw a boundary around it and say, this is separate and is "a" human.

In the case of most conjoined twins, I can say that two distinct heads, each with a capacity for sustaining the body without the help of the other, means that each has an equal claim on that body and each deserves to be called a person. But in the case of a host twin and a parasitic twin completely contained within the host, the host can sustain the body and the parasitic twin can't, but rather is sustained by the host. Nobody objects when parasitic twins are removed from host twins, because parasitic twins are not persons.

To me, if the organisms are not completely separate, then there has to be proof that each one can live separately from the other for there to be two humans, not to say human beings. I'd say the same for cows, pigs, sheep, horses, elephants, mice, etc.: a murine embryo is not a mouse.

DNA is not the only criterion for species, let alone membership in a species: genotype and phenotype or morphology are both considered. A human embryo has an incomplete morphology that does not qualify it for being "a" human in my book, but only a human embryo. A fetus has gone through organogenesis, but an embryo hasn't. A viable fetus has gone through sufficient organ development that it could be sustained if removed. However, it has not had sufficient brain development to exhibit a distinctively human EEG. So for me, even a fetus is only in the process of becoming a human.

If it can be removed and sustained by something other than the woman's body, I can see why some claim it is "a" human even though it hasn't been removed, but before that? The woman's body hasn't finished constructing its body yet, which is why it has to be biologically attached to her.

What I'm saying is that DNA by itself is not a sufficient criterion for a human. It is a detailed outline or plan for making one, but the human doesn't come from just the plan, it comes from the actual making in pregnancy.

Sexual differentiation doesn't begin to develop until at least the seventh week. Hormonal conditions in the woman's uterus can actually result in a genetic male developing female sex organs or a genetic female developing male sex organs by the ninth or tenth weeks, though it is rare for the genetic and phenotypic sex to be fully opposed. When babies are born, it is not typical to find out what sex they are by doing a DNA test. Visual identification is used, and it is on that basis that they are claimed to be male or female and raised as boys or girls. Intersex people, in whom genotype and phenotype do not match, cannot all that easily be given a phenotype to match their genotype. That is one example of the significance of morphology.

Identical twin embryos have DNA so alike that, if the woman grows bodies for them and gives birth to them and they grow up, despite the genetic copy errors that occur in each body by the age of 30, the DNA of one of them from a crime scene could be forensically identify the other as a criminal. But those twins would each have unique fingerprints. Even as fetuses, after sufficient development, around the 17th week, their fingerprints would distinguish them clearly. I take this comparison as objective evidence of the significance of morphology.

That one cannot be human without human DNA is not the same as saying that human DNA is sufficient for being "a" human, let alone "a" human being, because one has to have a body with differentiated organs, etc., to exist outside the woman's body. And you do not have to have unique DNA to be unique, because having a sufficiently developed body can provide more conclusive evidence of uniqueness than forensic identification of DNA.

I understand all that you have said I believe. But my primary point is that the distinctions you draw from these observable facts are subjective. In other words, you decisions of whether these facts indicate person-hood or not are your opinion, drawn from these observations.
 
Yes. But the point of a secular government is that we all recognize that we aren't playing the same game ethically, so to speak, because of different faiths, so we have to make a legal Constitution and laws by which we all agree to keep playing the game together. And as I see it, the conservative compromise evident in the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v Wade was intended for a population that disagreed so fundamentally that the way to allow us to keep playing together was to let each woman decide in conjunction with her doctor until the point that a state could say that just removing the fetus was at least 50% likely to show that it had a life of its own and thus obviously had a right to it.

Right. Thanks for that! :)
So the reason it is such a huge issue to some of us is that we feel the compromise involves infanticide. We are not satisfied this is the best compromise. And it isn't just the death that is at issue.
 
What? And you 'believing' the fetus is something 'more', isnt judgement on your part? Or wishful thinking. It's something you cannot prove at all.

Science gives us facts. The law is based on that....not 'beliefs.'

In effect yes, I am making a judgement call as well. I can freely admit that. You?
 
They ****ed up totally. And all these people here are angered over the termination of the *unborn?*

How about the deaths of 10's of thousands of our soldiers? For nothing. The thousands coming home mentally and physically damaged that will never be the same? I am angry as Hell over them...they are a Hell of a lot more important that fetuses...and yet...the excuses remain.

That doesnt even count the innocent civilian Iraqis killed......(they probably mean less than American fetuses too).

Unborn children ARE all of these people, just waiting their turn to be. They all matter equally.
 
NONSENSE. NOT all of us are religious, you're just stating a WISH that we all are. Sorry (not really), but just because you believe religion controls every issue doesn't mean it actually does. Beliefs AREN'T facts, in case you weren't aware of it.

Yet by all account the decisions you make regarding right and wrong, which are based on your observation and interpretation of the facts observed, seem to you factual. Huh?
 
The fact is the USA is a secular country and our Constitution separates Church from State.

The right to reproductive choice including legal abortions within the parameters of Roe vs Wade is a part of our religious liberty.

There are certain zones of privacy including reproductivity.

The Supreme Court decision in 1965 recognized reproducty ( a couples right to privacy to use birth control ).

The Roe vs Wade decision decided that right to reproductive privacy extended to abortions until viability and after viability gave states the right to a compelling interest in the potentially of life by allowing states to limit abortions after viabily with the exception of when the women's life or irreparable damage to a major bodily would occur.

That is the compromise.
 
Actually I think you have misunderstood me. Please don't recount the entire biology again ChoiceOne. I am not taking issue with it. I'll take your word that it is accurate, if not in fact, then in intent. I don't disagree.

But I am not trying to say the unborn child has a life of it's own in complete separation from the woman. I am saying it is a unique human person. Not a separate and self sustaining person. It's body is not part of the woman's body (I am not saying it shares nothing with the woman, it obviously does. It's DNA is that of a unique human being, regardless of stage of growth. It is such from the start. That is the scientific differentiation between the child person and the woman person.
The courts do not recognize the person-hood of the child. I understand that. That is why I am here posting my opinions. I am developing a discussion that we hope some day will sway the courts to recognize the child.
This is the American process.

the courts will never refer to an unborn fetus as a "child". the term "child" has a distinct interpretation. Justices know enough about "Biology" not to use terms like...Child, Baby or Mommy.

I think it is imparitive you learn the language Scientists, Ethicists, Medical experts, Lawyers, and Judges use to understand and discuss complex points of rulings and laws.
 
The fact is the USA is a secular country and our Constitution separates Church from State.
The right to reproductive choice including legal abortions within the parameters of Roe vs Wade is a part of our religious liberty.
There are certain zones of privacy including reproductivity.
The Supreme Court decision in 1965 recognized reproducty ( a couples right to privacy to use birth control ).
The Roe vs Wade decision decided that right to reproductive privacy extended to abortions until viability and after viability gave states the right to a compelling interest in the potentially of life by allowing states to limit abortions after viabily with the exception of when the women's life or irreparable damage to a major bodily would occur.

That is the compromise.

Right. The issue is, many are not content with the parameters of the compromise, so we contest it's viability as a cultural norm.
 
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