Palestinians Lose Control Again

[Tashah]

By Ryan Jones
25 September 2005
Jerusalem Newswire

Israel at the weekend reaped more fruit of its recent “disengagement” from the Gaza Strip.

Last week, that crop took the form of a brief international embrace of the Jewish state. Now Hamas and the Islamic Jihad have begun exploiting their newfound liberty from direct IDF interference to launch massive artillery barrages on Israel's Negev region.

More than 40 Kassam rockets fired from northern Gaza slammed into the town of Sderot over the weekend. Among the targets were a school, a residential complex and a community recreation center.

Sderot Mayor Eli Moyal announced Saturday night that schools would be closed Sunday due to the threat to the town's children. Many classrooms still are not fortified against artillery attacks.

http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=756

--------------------

Sarah El Deeb
Canadian Press
September 25, 2005

Israeli aircraft blasted suspected Palestinian weapons facilities in Gaza on Sunday and authorities arrested hundreds of militants in the West Bank, launching an offensive against the Islamic group Hamas after it bombarded Israeli towns with rockets.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon warned Sunday that "all means" would be used to end attacks on Israel. Security officials said the military was preparing for possible artillery attacks and a ground invasion unless the Palestinian Authority or Hamas itself halts the rocket attacks.

http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=d684edaf-424e-4ab4-b05d-ec511249d3a6

--------------------

Israel unilaterally withdrew its settlements and military from Gaza with the tacit understanding that attacks upon Israel from Gaza would cease. It is becoming rapidly obvious to me that the Palestinian Authority either supports, or has no control over violent elements within its territory. Abu Abbas and the PA were warned in no uncertain terms that Israel would respond with whatever force was necessary to eliminate Gaza attacks on Israelis should these terms be violated.

Although I am cogniscent of the difficulties facing Abu Abbas, my patience with the Palestinians has now ended. Whatever heartache befalls them from this point on... is now considered to be well deserved.

 

[MiamiFlorida]

By Ryan Jones
25 September 2005
Jerusalem Newswire

Israel at the weekend reaped more fruit of its recent “disengagement” from the Gaza Strip.

Last week, that crop took the form of a brief international embrace of the Jewish state. Now Hamas and the Islamic Jihad have begun exploiting their newfound liberty from direct IDF interference to launch massive artillery barrages on Israel's Negev region.

More than 40 Kassam rockets fired from northern Gaza slammed into the town of Sderot over the weekend. Among the targets were a school, a residential complex and a community recreation center.

Sderot Mayor Eli Moyal announced Saturday night that schools would be closed Sunday due to the threat to the town's children. Many classrooms still are not fortified against artillery attacks.

http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=756

--------------------

Sarah El Deeb
Canadian Press
September 25, 2005

Israeli aircraft blasted suspected Palestinian weapons facilities in Gaza on Sunday and authorities arrested hundreds of militants in the West Bank, launching an offensive against the Islamic group Hamas after it bombarded Israeli towns with rockets.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon warned Sunday that "all means" would be used to end attacks on Israel. Security officials said the military was preparing for possible artillery attacks and a ground invasion unless the Palestinian Authority or Hamas itself halts the rocket attacks.

http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=d684edaf-424e-4ab4-b05d-ec511249d3a6

--------------------

Israel unilaterally withdrew its settlements and military from Gaza with the tacit understanding that attacks upon Israel from Gaza would cease. It is becoming rapidly obvious to me that the Palestinian Authority either supports, or has no control over violent elements within its territory. Abu Abbas and the PA were warned in no uncertain terms that Israel would respond with whatever force was necessary to eliminate Gaza attacks on Israelis should these terms be violated.

Although I am cogniscent of the difficulties facing Abu Abbas, my patience with the Palestinians has now ended. Whatever heartache befalls them from this point on... is now considered to be well deserved.

So much for negotiating with societies that shelter, encourage and worship terrorists.

 

[Dezaad]

.
.
.
Although I am cognizant of the difficulties facing Abu Abbas, my patience with the Palestinians has now ended. Whatever heartache befalls them from this point on... is now considered to be well deserved.

Can we correctly assume, then, that you subscribe to the notion that it is ok to either blame or punish a people for the actions of some part of it's members?

 

[DivineComedy]

Can we correctly assume, then, that you subscribe to the notion that it is ok to either blame or punish a people for the actions of some part of it's members?

Forgive us if we go back to calling them "so-called Palestinians," I mean after all if so-called Palestinians are immune from the responsibility that a people assume when they own territory, then the so-called Palestinians have no right to own any territory or have a State.

 

[Tashah]

Can we correctly assume, then, that you subscribe to the notion that it is ok to either blame or punish a people for the actions of some part of it's members?

I subscribe to the legal notion that any attacks that issue from one country on another... are the direct responsibility of the government of the land from which the attack originated. If the Palestinian government cannot control artillery, mortar, and rocket barrages that issue from its territory, then any logical person must conclude that other measures are necessary. As far as I am concerned, there can be no safe harbor or sanctuary for terrorists.

Can I correctly assume then, that you believe Hamas has the right to punish a people with impudence?

 

[DivineComedy]

I subscribe to the legal notion that any attacks that issue from one country on another... are the direct responsibility of the government of the land from which the attack originated.

The timing could not have been any better.

 

[epr64]

I subscribe to the legal notion that any attacks that issue from one country on another... are the direct responsibility of the government of the land from which the attack originated. If the Palestinian government cannot control artillery, mortar, and rocket barrages that issue from its territory, then any logical person must conclude that other measures are necessary. As far as I am concerned, there can be no safe harbor or sanctuary for terrorists.

Can I correctly assume then, that you believe Hamas has the right to punish a people with impudence?

Yup. Since when is Palestine a country? Israel did evrything it could to avoid it. There is no police (destroyed by the IDF), no government (idem).. HoW the hell could they do anything?

Everyone with half a mind knows that the retraet from Gaza was:
1/ a good reason to create more colonies in Cisjordany, in order to keep most of it.
2/ Doomed to show the world that Abbas couldn't master his population.

Abbas can't do anything. You can't reverse a situation imposed on you since 40 years in a few weeks.

This was doomed to happen. I hate everytime someone is wounded and/or killed in Israel and Palestine because of this. If Sharon did effectively take the IDF out of Gaza in cooperation with the palestinians, and with the help of the international community, this could have been avoided.

It was not the case.. so we have more deaths on both sides.

Totally stupid.. But what can you expect from two populations who are teached to hate each other since childhood?


Y

 

[Tashah]

Yup. Since when is Palestine a country? Israel did evrything it could to avoid it. There is no police (destroyed by the IDF), no government (idem).. HoW the hell could they do anything?

The Palestinians put their faith in the corrupt leadership of Yassir Arafat for decades and they are now paying the price. It should be obvious to everyone that Arafat and his criminal cronies embezzeled millions from international funds designated for the uplifting of the Palestinain people.

They placed their faith in a terrorist who commanded the hijacking of civilian airliners and the murder of Olympic athletes. They placed their faith in a terrorist who encouraged and abetted suicide bombings. They placed their faith in a madman whose horrible agenda was more important to him than the werlfare of his people. They placed their faith in a flim-flam man who rejected all overtures of peaceful settlement.

Abu Abbas is now heir to all that misplaced faith. I have no sympathy for him. If he cannot control the terrorists and thugs under his purview, then perhaps he should ask the international community to occupy his rotten inheritance.

Israel should not and will not suffer the consequences of misplaced faith.

 

[MiamiFlorida]

I subscribe to the legal notion that any attacks that issue from one country on another... are the direct responsibility of the government of the land from which the attack originated. If the Palestinian government cannot control artillery, mortar, and rocket barrages that issue from its territory, then any logical person must conclude that other measures are necessary. As far as I am concerned, there can be no safe harbor or sanctuary for terrorists.

Can I correctly assume then, that you believe Hamas has the right to punish a people with impudence?

Well said. You're my hero!

 

[Connecticutter]

If Sharon did effectively take the IDF out of Gaza in cooperation with the palestinians, and with the help of the international community, this could have been avoided.

They already tried that. Barak offered a full retreat from Gaza and most of the West Bank, but Arafat wouldn't go along with it. What Sharon did was considered the next best thing. What is it that you want from them, then?

 

[cnredd]

Can we correctly assume, then, that you subscribe to the notion that it is ok to either blame or punish a people for the actions of some part of it's members?

If a Western American Militia group, without the authority of the United States, paid for their own trip and the movement of ammo and supplies, landed in Iran and proceeded to attack the Iranian leadership, who would the world blame?

The militia or America?

 

[superskippy]

Yup. Since when is Palestine a country? Israel did evrything it could to avoid it. There is no police (destroyed by the IDF), no government (idem).. HoW the hell could they do anything?

Everyone with half a mind knows that the retraet from Gaza was:
1/ a good reason to create more colonies in Cisjordany, in order to keep most of it.
2/ Doomed to show the world that Abbas couldn't master his population.

Abbas can't do anything. You can't reverse a situation imposed on you since 40 years in a few weeks.

This was doomed to happen. I hate everytime someone is wounded and/or killed in Israel and Palestine because of this. If Sharon did effectively take the IDF out of Gaza in cooperation with the palestinians, and with the help of the international community, this could have been avoided.

It was not the case.. so we have more deaths on both sides.

Totally stupid.. But what can you expect from two populations who are teached to hate each other since childhood?


Y

Can you give me details of how we destroyed their police force? The PA has 1,800 "Civil Defence" troops trained and armed from Egypt. The problam is they are fighting an internal struggle and the police themselves aid Hamas and the terrorists PA factions.

Abbas cant do anything because Hamas has a far larger power base. Hamas is more popular than the PA and Abbas can exert no control over a population that does not really support the PA. Not that he doenst mind it when Israel gets bombed. Also Abbas once a bank roller for the Black September operations has no qualms about killing Israelis. To think he is a benovelant man who was scapegoated by us in an attempt to show that he had no control for peace is simply not true.

Also in your saying you cant reverse a situation put on you for 40 years what do you think they got? They got what they wanted, Gaza. Do they need a cooldown time of a few months where they can keep killing us simply because they arent used to it? To say so would only prove a point that they are animals which is not true.


If Sharon did effectively take the IDF out of Gaza in cooperation with the palestinians, and with the help of the international community, this could have been avoided.

He has their are no troops left in Gaza. We have soldiers on the "Green Line" inside our territory. They have no right at all to protest that. They attacked out of hate.

Totally stupid.. But what can you expect from two populations who are teached to hate each other since childhood?

I dont know where you learned about Israel, but I dont hate the Palestinians. I hate the people who kill innocents on purpose. I hate the people who aim at our schools with rockets. The Ordinary peaceful Palestinian I have no anger towards. It's not uncommon to see a soldier hand out candy to some kids playing football, it's just not as newsworthy so no one hears about it. I remember when we were in the West Bank for a few weeks I got to hand out some candy to some kids. This was a while ago but you get the idea. We are not taught to hate, hate grows from circumstance and fanaticism. The truth is most of the Fanaticism and indoctrine of hate comes from the Palestinians.

 

[Dezaad]

I subscribe to the legal notion that any attacks that issue from one country on another... are the direct responsibility of the government of the land from which the attack originated. If the Palestinian government cannot control artillery, mortar, and rocket barrages that issue from its territory, then any logical person must conclude that other measures are necessary. As far as I am concerned, there can be no safe harbor or sanctuary for terrorists.

Your original statement didn't seem to be so limited in scope. However, I suppose it could have meant this.

It's just that... you said 'The Palestinians'. So I naturally thought you meant the Palestinian Arabs as a general people. (Sort of like when people say 'The Israelis', it is usually taken to mean the people of Israel.) When you said 'The Palestinians' I took you in the same way I take people when they say 'The Israelis'. And, that you were saying that the Palestinian Arabs were to, in so many words, 'get what they deserve'; because Hamas (a subset of the group under discussion) have done some unforgivable things.

For my own future reference, can I inquire as to what you mean when you say, "The Palestinians"? I know you must not only mean Hamas, though I suppose you could with a really loose use of the word. I would guess that you must not mean only Abbas either, since you used the plural. . . Do you mean the Palestinian leadership?

Can I correctly assume then, that you believe Hamas has the right to punish a people with impudence?

Absolutely not. Much more ridiculous question than I asked you, as I demonstrated above.

I am an equal opportunity individuals advocate, so If I ever said "The Palestinians Deserve X" or that "The Israelis deserve Y", I would immediately backpedal, because I don't believe that peoples deserve things. I think that saying "The XXXs" deserve such and so, whether such and so is good or bad is the beginning of prejudice. An exception to this is when such and so is a human right.

For instance, I would say that "The Israelis" deserve to live in security, because I believe all people do.

Another thing I would say is that "The Israelis" ought to be recognized and defended (morally certainly and militarily, if they desire it) within their legally recognized 1967 borders. It gets murky to me how much additional land I'd be willing to defend. But, I do lean toward additional lands for a multitude of complicated reasons, of which I am fairly sure you are likely to be more familiar than I. Even if you don't in the end agree.

I do not like Sharon. I believe he has shown racist tendencies in his past. Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with him, however, with regard to disengagement. I agree that holding lands populated with Arabs will likely lead to an untenable situation in Israel's future. I believe that the Palestinian situation is a situation mainly created and maintained by the rest of the Arab Nation's policies. It is my own limited opinion that it would be best if Palestinian lands, and the Palestinians who remain there, be absorbed back into their bordering Arab neighbors. But, it is my impression that cowardice on those neighbor's parts limits their options. Perhaps this would be unpopular in Israel as well, I do not know; and so the ridiculous notion that there ought to be a Palestinian state remains.

What I am hopeful of, is that Sharon is attempting to make it untenable for Palestinians to create a viable Palestinian state, and that the principals will be forced to accept the reasonable, and something close to the original, arrangement envisioned for the area. I believe this is the solution with the best possiblility of lasting success, though the early path would be quite rocky.

Some would accuse me of racism for saying this. Not you, perhaps, but many of my fellow Liberals.

So, in the end, I most fully do not in the least agree with you that "The Palestinians" heartbreak is on their own heads as it is dished out by the Israeli Military. I would, however, agree that a variety of violent responses that hurt innocent Arabs in the crossfire are necessary, as an ugly chapter in getting to where everyone needs to be.

 

[Tashah]

For my own future reference, can I inquire as to what you mean when you say, "The Palestinians"? I know you must not only mean Hamas, though I suppose you could with a really loose use of the word. I would guess that you must not mean only Abbas either, since you used the plural. . . Do you mean the Palestinian leadership?

Although English is my third language (Hebrew / Arabic), my word selection was not ambiguous at all.

I am an equal opportunity individuals advocate, so If I ever said "The Palestinians Deserve X" or that "The Israelis deserve Y", I would immediately backpedal, because I don't believe that peoples deserve things. I think that saying "The XXXs" deserve such and so, whether such and so is good or bad is the beginning of prejudice. An exception to this is when such and so is a human right.

Then this is an apex where we disagree. If any people - as a collective - harbor and protect terrorists... then they must also - as a collective - be prepared to face the consequences of their choices. Although you refer to this as a prejudice, I interpret this as a justice.

For instance, I would say that "The Israelis" deserve to live in security, because I believe all people do.

I of course agree wholeheartedly.

Another thing I would say is that "The Israelis" ought to be recognized and defended (morally certainly and militarily, if they desire it) within their legally recognized 1967 borders. It gets murky to me how much additional land I'd be willing to defend. But, I do lean toward additional lands for a multitude of complicated reasons, of which I am fairly sure you are likely to be more familiar than I. Even if you don't in the end agree.

If the Arabs wish to wage aggressive war on Israel, and they have done so numerous times... then they also must be cognizant of the fact that there are severe prices to pay in defeat. One of the prices exacted, was an extension of the borders to give Israel-proper more strategic depth. The Palestinian and Arab leaders gambled on aggressive wars and they lost. The prices were duly exacted. Under these dire circumstances, most indigenous populations would have sacked the leadership to begin anew... and rectify past mistakes. As we all know, these moral obligations and logical necessities never came to pass.

I do not like Sharon. I believe he has shown racist tendencies in his past.

I will not absolve Sharon of his sins. I will also say however, that Abbas has also demonstrated racist tendencies. Although it is not well known in the West, Abbas wrote his Doctoral thesis in 1959 while attending Moscow University. I have read his thesis, and it is plainly nothing more than an anti-Semitic tract. This sleazy thesis paper would never have bestowed a Ph.D. degree upon Abbas in any Western university.

Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with him, however, with regard to disengagement. I agree that holding lands populated with Arabs will likely lead to an untenable situation in Israel's future. I believe that the Palestinian situation is a situation mainly created and maintained by the rest of the Arab Nation's policies. It is my own limited opinion that it would be best if Palestinian lands, and the Palestinians who remain there, be absorbed back into their bordering Arab neighbors. But, it is my impression that cowardice on those neighbor's parts limits their options. Perhaps this would be unpopular in Israel as well, I do not know; and so the ridiculous notion that there ought to be a Palestinian state remains.

As the United States is now learning in Iraq, occupation is a very difficult and dicey endeavor. The stasis between Israel and Palestine that had endured for decades could not endure forever. Someone had to take a huge political risk to initiate a climate that favored a peaceful settlement. Sharon has taken this huge political risk. To date, there has been no quid-pro-quo from Abbas.

What I am hopeful of, is that Sharon is attempting to make it untenable for Palestinians to create a viable Palestinian state, and that the principals will be forced to accept the reasonable, and something close to the original, arrangement envisioned for the area. I believe this is the solution with the best possiblility of lasting success, though the early path would be quite rocky. Some would accuse me of racism for saying this. Not you, perhaps, but many of my fellow Liberals.

It is not Sharon, but the Palestinians themselves who are making a Palestinian state untenable. Sharon's unilateral decision, although not popular with all Israelis, was embraced by most because it held such promise. I can assure you that the vast majority of Israelis do not relish war upon their neighbors.

That said however, this golden opportunity is rapidly slipping away from Israeli consciousness. Israelis will quickly jettison the ideology of the Gaza withdrawal if Palestinian munitions keep raining down upon them. This would be the natural response of any people.

So, in the end, I most fully do not in the least agree with you that "The Palestinians" heartbreak is on their own heads as it is dished out by the Israeli Military. I would, however, agree that a variety of violent responses that hurt innocent Arabs in the crossfire are necessary, as an ugly chapter in getting to where everyone needs to be.

You may think this callous, but it needs to be said. The Palestinian people know exactly who does what, where, and when. There are no secrets in a slice of land as small as Gaza.

The Palestinian people as a whole have an immediate choice to make. Either turn against those who bring down such heartaches upon them, or continue to suffer heartaches for their silence, moral indifference, and cowardice. When all is said and done, there will never be a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine unless and until... the Palestinian people - as a collective - deliver themselves from their true oppressors.

 

[Dezaad]

Although English is my third language (Hebrew / Arabic), my word selection was not ambiguous at all.

Oh, I don't question your ability to use English, or your intelligence for that matter. Its just that, in one post you are saying that a people are collectively responsible for a part of their peoples actions and then you seem to imply that that is not what you are saying. Whatever the source of the perceived disparity, you've made yourself clear.

If any people - as a collective - harbor and protect terrorists... then they must also - as a collective - be prepared to face the consequences of their choices. Although you refer to this as a prejudice, I interpret this as a justice.

Actually, I didn't refer to this as prejudice, per se. I said it was the beginning of prejudice. I believe that acceptance of this thinking contains all the ingredients necessary to launch an argument for the collective judgement of individuals. Which you have in fact openly extended it to do, in the later part of your post. These individuals are pre-judged by you. If they are all so 'guilty', why not round them up and put them all in a collective jail? No need to try them in a court of law, they're all of the same cloth ... blah blah blah.

I will also say however, that Abbas has also demonstrated racist tendencies.

Oh, I am equally suspicious of Palestinian leadership. It was because of the Israeli government's acceptance of Abbas that I didn't look further into his history. Is Abbas' thesis available via a link here on the web?

Also, would Sharon be justified in being racist if Abbas is?

As the United States is now learning in Iraq, occupation is a very difficult and dicey endeavor.

As an aside, Some of us understood this in advance, even when we were fed the notion that it would essentially be a cakewalk.

The stasis between Israel and Palestine that had endured for decades could not endure forever. Someone had to take a huge political risk to initiate a climate that favored a peaceful settlement. Sharon has taken this huge political risk. To date, there has been no quid-pro-quo from Abbas.

Well, I believe it was motivated by the notion that it would be best if there were as many Arabs as possible on the outside of the borders of any future Israel. Unfortunately, this is true. Israel will be more stable for longer thus. While it was risky for Sharon to do it, I really don't think it was a risk he took for the sake of peace, directly. It is just spun that way.

It is not Sharon, but the Palestinians themselves who are making a Palestinian state untenable. Sharon's unilateral decision, although not popular with all Israelis, was embraced by most because it held such promise.I can assure you that the vast majority of Israelis do not relish war upon their neighbors.
That said however, this golden opportunity is rapidly slipping away from Israeli consciousness. Israelis will quickly jettison the ideology of the Gaza withdrawal if Palestinian munitions keep raining down upon them. This would be the natural response of any people.

It would be difficult to form a single small state split into two even smaller parts. It is for this reason that I said a Palestinian state is untenable. But, I don't think that's what many Arabs really ever wanted. I think they wanted the absence of an Israeli state, and a Palestinian state was a means to that end. A Palestinian state doesn't make sense, even from a Palestinian's point of view.

Even so, I'd hardly call the opportunity "Golden".

You may think this callous, but it needs to be said. The Palestinian people know exactly who does what, where, and when. There are no secrets in a slice of land as small as Gaza.

Firstly, I find it hard to believe that the entire population of Palestinians welcomes Hamas. I don't believe that it is plausible that everyone knows what everyone else is doing just because an area of land is small. It is apparent to me that this dynamic is more likely to be a function of population size rather than land size.

I still believe what Israel does, for the most part, is justified. But, I think there is a difference between a justified situation and a just one; and you are right that it is not Israel's fault, for the most part, that this situation is not just. But, neither is it all Palestinian's fault. I believe many people in Gaza are caught between the Israeli fear for their own security and some Palestinian's radicalism.

If I was a resident of Gaza, I do not know what I could do. I don't think you do either. I think its just too convenient to think in terms of black and white. It also denies humanity.

 

[vergiss]

At the risk of sounding stereotypically Jewish... oy vey. Right now, I have a compulsive need to hit something.

Argh! No matter what Israel tries to do, the Palestinians just want to stomp their feet and have a hissy fit. The worst thing about it is the Israelis can't even glare in return without the rest of the world turning on them and carrying on as if they're the ones trying to ruin everything.

Sharon needs to threaten Abbas. Keep his own people in order - or they will. And I swear to God, I'll slap the next person who whinges crap about "Jewish Nazism".

 

[Tashah]

Actually, I didn't refer to this as prejudice, per se. I said it was the beginning of prejudice. I believe that acceptance of this thinking contains all the ingredients necessary to launch an argument for the collective judgement of individuals. Which you have in fact openly extended it to do, in the later part of your post. These individuals are pre-judged by you. If they are all so 'guilty', why not round them up and put them all in a collective jail? No need to try them in a court of law, they're all of the same cloth ... blah blah blah.

You misplace prejudice for morality. When someone (either by omission or commission) is complicit in allowing immoral behavior, it is not at all prejudicial to expose this egregious behavior. Quite the contrary, it is a moral obligation.

Oh, I am equally suspicious of Palestinian leadership. It was because of the Israeli government's acceptance of Abbas that I didn't look further into his history. Is Abbas' thesis available via a link here on the web?

The Doctoral thesis paper of Mahmoud Abbas was eventually published in an Arabic language book entitled: "The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism". Although this book is widely available in the Middle East, to my knowledge it has never been translated into English. A Google search on the above title should nevertheless enlighten you.

Also, would Sharon be justified in being racist if Abbas is?

I am not at all certain Sharon is a racist. Without doubt, Sharon is an extreme Zionist.

While it was risky for Sharon to do it, I really don't think it was a risk he took for the sake of peace, directly. It is just spun that way.

Whatever his motivation, there can be no denying that it was a huge gamble. I now tend to think, with the recent Palestinian attacks from Gaza, that Sharon will soon pay a high political price for his risky maneuver. Look for Netanyahu to replace Sharon. This event will probably be the death knell for any peace overtures by Isreal within his tenure.

It would be difficult to form a single small state split into two even smaller parts. It is for this reason that I said a Palestinian state is untenable. But, I don't think that's what many Arabs really ever wanted. I think they wanted the absence of an Israeli state, and a Palestinian state was a means to that end. A Palestinian state doesn't make sense, even from a Palestinian's point of view.

I agree. Arafat and the PA used the device of a Palestinian state to capture global public sentiment. To a large extent, they succeeded. With the recent withdrawal from Gaza, Israel has called their bluff. In effect Israel has said put up or shut up. The Palestinians now find themselves in an untenable position... they cannot now obtain what they really want (Israel), nor can they now refuse what they have been demanding (a Palestinian state). The whole world is watching.

If I was a resident of Gaza, I do not know what I could do. I don't think you do either. I think its just too convenient to think in terms of black and white. It also denies humanity.

Dezaad, Israel has tried every shade of gray... nothing remains except black and white. For all of my life, there has been violent strife between Israel and Palestine. I always believed that if the Palestinian people had a viable opportunity to achieve statehood peacefully, they would sieze upon the opportunity in a heartbeat. Perhaps I have been naive and idealistic. Israel has gone the extra mile. No more. No more land for peace. Only peace for peace will now suffice.

I find it inexplicable. The beautiful dream of all Palestinians is at their very fingertips... yet they seem to prefer the crimson nightmare.

 

[robin]

I find it inexplicable. The beautiful dream of all Palestinians is at their very fingertips... yet they seem to prefer the crimson nightmare.

Tashah,
'They' is of course a generalisation, as I'm sure you appreciate.
The majority of Palestinians who just want to get on with their lives in peace, are screwed up by a handfull of fanatics in their midst.
Just like Muslims around the world. Just a tiny proportion of sick minded individuals within their midst get the rest a bad name.
Same in Ireland where 99% of people suffered becuase of the IRA & UDA terroists that comprised just 1% of the population.
So in other words, most Palestinians are as much victims of the fanatics in their midst as the Israelis are !

 

[kingpin]

What we need are some of those old fashioned leaders with guts and moxie, who aren't afraid to oppress their people to keep things straight. Many portions of the middle east haven't experienced what the West has 'the englightenment'. The understanding that this world is the only life we know of for sure and because of that, we should try to make our stay here as tolerant and comfortable as possible. Because the middle east was basically a tribal and nomadic area until the past 2 centuries the people living there are going through a worse social decay than the eastern Europeans. What i think Palestine needs is a leader compairable only to the communists. One who is willing to totally discard religion in the region to keep the people in order. A leader that will show the people why they should Cherish their lives and their time on this planet. I know that the Communists also caused social decay (eastern Europe), but they knew how to maintain order, at all costs.

Thats what Palestine needs, this conflict in Israel has only lasted 40 years and has only fueled the hate of thousands of people, Causing the indiscriminate murder of the innocent. There are mobs with more money and Intel that the gov. of palestine, The only way Palestine can compete with that is through the violation of everyones privacy. When the crooks find ways around the laws then ya just got to make new laws (ex. patriot act). Thats where my mention of communism comes in. If the laws become so harsh that they compare to Communism, so be it. Order in Palestine should be the #1 priority.

 

[Tashah]

I am personally of a mindset that people are deserving of the government they have. We rose up and overthrew out government, as have many civilizations before and since. When the people want a change, they will make it happen. Until that time, they are guilty along with their government. The same goes for religion...even more so though. If the peaceful muslims are not standing apart from their violent and malicious brethren, then as far as I am concerned they are standing with them. There can be no more grey...this has to become a black and white, dividing line issue or it will never be stamped out.

This is the heart and soul of the matter. I couldn't have said it any better.