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Our current tax system is the best tax system...

interesting. you are claiming that the "death/estate" tax is the same tax as the gift tax? :)

Read the first post on page ten. It is all there for you.
 
death is what causes the death tax to apply

not the creation of the estate but the death of its owner

its a death tax

and why do some people defend it so much?

why do they want the government to take stuff that others have earned?

think about that-what sort of person wants to see the government take away say a nice home, or a farm or even a mansion?

generally those consumed with envy or those who think the "rich" somehow don't deserve what they have accumulated.
 
Read the first post on page ten. It is all there for you.

since it isn't the same as the inheritance tax; it still seems rather semantic. arguing that it's not the bequeather dying, it's the heir inheriting that is taxed is like arguing that income isn't taxed - money recieved from your employer is.

death tax, estate tax, who cares? it's economically destructive; a means to discourage the development of new wealthy families (olds ones being generally unaffected) masquerading as a sop to class warfare.
 
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death is what causes the death tax to apply

not the creation of the estate but the death of its owner

its a death tax

and why do some people defend it so much?

why do they want the government to take stuff that others have earned?

think about that-what sort of person wants to see the government take away say a nice home, or a farm or even a mansion?

generally those consumed with envy or those who think the "rich" somehow don't deserve what they have accumulated.

Simple question: if it is a tax on death, why do not all that suffer death suffer the payment of the tax?

You know well why.

Go to wikipedia and type in two words - DEATH TAX. Here is where you are taken

Estate tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The estate tax in the United States is a tax imposed on the transfer of the "taxable estate" of a deceased person, whether such property is transferred via a will, according to the state laws of intestacy or otherwise made as an incident of the death of the owner, such as a transfer of property from an intestate estate or trust, or the payment of certain life insurance benefits or financial account sums to beneficiaries. The estate tax is one part of the Unified Gift and Estate Tax system in the United States. The other part of the system, the gift tax, imposes a tax on transfers of property during a person's life; the gift tax prevents avoidance of the estate tax should a person want to give away his/her estate. In addition to the federal government, many states also impose an estate tax, with the state version called either an estate tax or an inheritance tax. Since the 1990s, opponents of the tax have used the pejorative term, "death tax."[1] The equivalent tax in the United Kingdom has always been referred to as "inheritance tax".

So it is clear that what we have in the USA is indeed an inheritance tax and not a an actual tax upon death. It is clearly a pejorative term designed to have ideological and partisan poloitical implications. It is used intentionally and deliberately by those on the ri9ght as part of a political campaign to save the rich money in inheritance taxes.

The loaded political meaning of the term is clearly outlined and described in the same article.



The term "death tax" is a neologism used by policy makers and critics to describe the tax in a way that conveys additional meaning. Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[42] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich. Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[43] Linguist George Lakoff asserts that the term "death tax" is a deliberate and carefully calculated neologism used as a propaganda tactic to aid in efforts to repeal estate taxes. The use of "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in the wording of questions in the 2002 National Election Survey increased support for estate tax repeal by only a few percentage points.[44]

So what we have here is a clear and unmistakable attempt by ideologues to hijack a term and misappropriate it, to twist it, to pervert it into something else entirely in order to further their own narrow ideological desires.

When you Turtle use it here you follow the instructions exactly as Faris urged conservatives to use it. When you Turtle use it here you do so exactly as Luntz advocated conservatives use it. When you Turtle use it here you do so as Lakoff intends - as a propoganda tactic divorced from factual reality.

The invocation of the term "death tax" is for purely ideological reasons in the furtherance of a far right agenda.

You have revealed the crux of the issue in your own words

why do they want the government to take stuff that others have earned?

Because OTHERS HAVE EARNED IT. Others paid tax on it. NOT YOU. Not the recipient of the estate. You did not EARN anything and now you have admitted it in print.

In America we do not believe in a landed gentry class which can permanently ride atop the social and economic structure by passing wealth and property from one generation to the next in an endless series of non-taxable transfers of wealth. The estate tax is simply part of that.

Your own state of Ohio agrees and has an estate tax that only the wealthy pay. This is from the official state website and here is the language

Ohio Department of Taxation Estate Tax

Table of Contents

The Ohio estate tax was enacted in 1968 to replace a state inheritance tax, but its roots can be traced back to 1893, when an inheritance tax was enacted during the McKinley administration.

Under current law, the estates of residents with a net taxable value of $338,333 or less are effectively exempt from payment of the tax. A 6 percent tax rate applies to any net taxable value above that mark, up to $500,000. A 7 percent rate applies to any net taxable value over $500,000.

People who suffer death in Ohio do not get taxed for it. The transfer of wealth through inheritance is taxed through an Estate Tax if the value if over $338,333.00.

You keep saying that death is what triggers the tax. That is silly in the extreme. You might as well say the purchase of the coffin triggers the tax and call it a COFFIN TAX. Or perhaps the embalming triggered the tax and call it an EMBALMING TAX. Or perhaps the erection of the tombstone triggered the tax and call it an ERECTION TAX. No - bad idea. The fact is that if the wealthiest person in Ohio - or turtle himself decided to collect all their wealth in one spot, converting to piles of cash and make a funeral pyre of it viking style going out of this world in flames - there would be be tax on that wealthiest person in Ohio because they literally took it all with them. they suffered death - they were wealthy - but since they pass no estate on - all they leave is worthless ashes and there is no tax.

PREDICTION: Turtle will not attempt to reply intelligently to any of these points. He will simply make his usual blanket statement and dismiss all of it. That is fine. This is not being printed here for his benefit.
 
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Simple question: if it is a tax on death, why do not all that suffer death suffer the payment of the tax?

:shrug: for the same reason that folks making 15,000 a year don't pay income tax
 
haymarket said:
Because OTHERS HAVE EARNED IT. Others paid tax on it. NOT YOU. Not the recipient of the estate. You did not EARN anything and now you have admitted it in print.

and neither has anyone else. only the person giving it earned it, he paid taxes on it when he did, and it is his (or hers) to dispose of as they see fit.
 
from cpwill on the Estate tax

since it isn't the same as the inheritance tax; it still seems rather semantic

The State of Ohio - says differently... from the official Ohio government website

Ohio Department of Taxation Estate Tax

Table of Contents

The Ohio estate tax was enacted in 1968 to replace a state inheritance tax, but its roots can be traced back to 1893, when an inheritance tax was enacted during the McKinley administration.

Under current law, the estates of residents with a net taxable value of $338,333 or less are effectively exempt from payment of the tax. A 6 percent tax rate applies to any net taxable value above that mark, up to $500,000. A 7 percent rate applies to any net taxable value over $500,000.

As to semantics, the articles I cited from Wikipedia clearly discussed the hijacking of the Estate Tax by conservatives attempting to use semantics for their own ideological purposes.

The term "death tax" is a neologism used by policy makers and critics to describe the tax in a way that conveys additional meaning. Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[42] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich. Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[43] Linguist George Lakoff asserts that the term "death tax" is a deliberate and carefully calculated neologism used as a propaganda tactic to aid in efforts to repeal estate taxes. The use of "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in the wording of questions in the 2002 National Election Survey increased support for estate tax repeal by only a few percentage points.[44]
 
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and neither has anyone else. only the person giving it earned it, he paid taxes on it when he did, and it is his (or hers) to dispose of as they see fit.

And they certainly can dispose of it as they see fit. And they do. And after they dispose of it as they see fit, it is subject to the tax. That decision has been made collectively by the duly elected representatives of the people as part of our system of representative democracy. It is part of government of the people, by the people and for the people. As a people, we have made the collective decision that a large transfer of wealth should be taxed. The vast vast majority of Americans are protected from this.
 
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:shrug: for the same reason that folks making 15,000 a year don't pay income tax

No. A person making less than $15K per year still has income but it is simply not subject to the same tax payment as higher income. All persons die. None are taxed for the event. What is taxed is the inheritance of money passed from one estate to another.

This is an political battle being waged by ideologues attempting to hijack language for their own purposes. That has been shown clearly and is beyond dispute. Anyone here who continues to use the term DEATH TAX is merely carrying out their extremist marching orders and has been exposed as doing just that.
 
and neither has anyone else. only the person giving it earned it, he paid taxes on it when he did, and it is his (or hers) to dispose of as they see fit.

Haymarket's frantic defense of the death tax is rather sickening. he claims that the heirs didn't "earn" the money which ignores that one of the main tenets of private property ownership is disposing of it as the owner sees fits

again, I ask what sort of mentality motivates someone to spend so much effort defending the government taking property from others
 
No. A person making less than $15K per year still has income but it is simply not subject to the same tax payment as higher income. All persons die. None are taxed for the event. What is taxed is the inheritance of money passed from one estate to another.

This is an political battle being waged by ideologues attempting to hijack language for their own purposes. That has been shown clearly and is beyond dispute. Anyone here who continues to use the term DEATH TAX is merely carrying out their extremist marching orders and has been exposed as doing just that.

as opposed to those who defend a parasitic attitude that the rich-who already pay more of the income tax than any concept of "fair share" have to then pay this death tax?
 
No. A person making less than $15K per year still has income but it is simply not subject to the same tax payment as higher income.

exactly. just as (to use your language) someone who inherits 15K still inherits, but is simply not subject to the same tax payment as a higher inheritance.
 
as opposed to those who defend a parasitic attitude that the rich-who already pay more of the income tax than any concept of "fair share" have to then pay this death tax?

Which may be your ideological opinion but is also completely irrelevant on the distinction between the reality of an Estate Tax and your right wing fantasy of a death tax.

And fantasy it is. Note that the Wikipedia article describes the use of the term 'death tax' as

The term "death tax" is a neologism used by policy makers and critics to describe the tax in a way that conveys additional meaning. Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[42] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich. Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[43] Linguist George Lakoff asserts that the term "death tax" is a deliberate and carefully calculated neologism used as a propaganda tactic to aid in efforts to repeal estate taxes. The use of "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in the wording of questions in the 2002 National Election Survey increased support for estate tax repeal by only a few percentage points.[44]

And what exactly is a neologism?

A neologism (pronounced /niːˈɒlədʒɪzəm/, from the Greek νέο-, néo-, "new", and λόγος, lógos, "speech", "utterance") is a newly coined term, word or phrase, that may be in the process of entering common use, but has not yet been accepted into mainstream language. Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person, publication, period, or event. Neolexia (Greek: a "new word", or the act of creating a new word) is a fully equivalent term.
The term neologism is first attested in English in 1772, borrowed from French néologisme (1734).[1]
In psychiatry, the term neologism is used to describe the use of words that only have meaning to the person who uses them, independent of their common meaning.[2] This is considered normal in children, but a symptom of thought disorder (indicative of a psychotic mental illness, such as schizophrenia) in adults.[3] .[5]

that pretty much hits the nail firmly on the head.
 
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exactly. just as (to use your language) someone who inherits 15K still inherits, but is simply not subject to the same tax payment as a higher inheritance.

Which is also irrelevant in on the distinction between the reality of an Estate tax and the right wing fantasy of a death tax.
 
Which is also irrelevant in on the distinction between the reality of an Estate tax and the right wing fantasy of a death tax.

the death tax is your fantasy-you are the one who spends hours defending that abomination.
 
Which is also irrelevant in on the distinction between the reality of an Estate tax and the right wing fantasy of a death tax.

no, you were trying to make the argument that in the act of passing money from a dying person to a live person, the act taxed is not the death, but the recieving; i pointed out that they were two sides of the same event; much like the employer paying you is the flip side of you recieving your paycheck. you claimed it was somehow magically different because smaller inheritances weren't taxed. smaller incomes also not being taxed, it seems this is a false dissimilarity.

estate tax, death tax, they are the same thing. it's the tax that should be the issue, not the damn name.
 
NO. They are not two sides of the same event. They are two different events. You are embracing the right wing cause celebre to rebrand the estate tax as something it is not simply in the pursuit of a extremist agenda. Go back and read the wikipedia article and you will see that this entire 'death tax' fraud was perpetrated by right wingers attempting to do just wht you and Turtle are doing. You are following their script to the letter.

Words have meaning. And for the rightwing to attempt to change reality to further their narrow extemist agenda is simply intellectually dishonest. As the Wikipedia article article indicates, it has psychological implications as well which are very telling about the right wing mindset and its separation for reality.

The term "death tax" is a neologism used by policy makers and critics to describe the tax in a way that conveys additional meaning. Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[42] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich. Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[43] Linguist George Lakoff asserts that the term "death tax" is a deliberate and carefully calculated neologism used as a propaganda tactic to aid in efforts to repeal estate taxes. The use of "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in the wording of questions in the 2002 National Election Survey increased support for estate tax repeal by only a few percentage points.[44]

And what exactly is a neologism?

A neologism (pronounced /niːˈɒlədʒɪzəm/, from the Greek νέο-, néo-, "new", and λόγος, lógos, "speech", "utterance") is a newly coined term, word or phrase, that may be in the process of entering common use, but has not yet been accepted into mainstream language. Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person, publication, period, or event. Neolexia (Greek: a "new word", or the act of creating a new word) is a fully equivalent term.
The term neologism is first attested in English in 1772, borrowed from French néologisme (1734).[1]
In psychiatry, the term neologism is used to describe the use of words that only have meaning to the person who uses them, independent of their common meaning.[2] This is considered normal in children, but a symptom of thought disorder (indicative of a psychotic mental illness, such as schizophrenia) in adults.[3] .[5]
 
Which may be your ideological opinion but is also completely irrelevant on the distinction between the reality of an Estate Tax and your right wing fantasy of a death tax.

And fantasy it is. Note that the Wikipedia article describes the use of the term 'death tax' as

The term "death tax" is a neologism used by policy makers and critics to describe the tax in a way that conveys additional meaning. Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[42] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich. Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[43] Linguist George Lakoff asserts that the term "death tax" is a deliberate and carefully calculated neologism used as a propaganda tactic to aid in efforts to repeal estate taxes. The use of "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in the wording of questions in the 2002 National Election Survey increased support for estate tax repeal by only a few percentage points.[44]

And what exactly is a neologism?

A neologism (pronounced /niːˈɒlədʒɪzəm/, from the Greek νέο-, néo-, "new", and λόγος, lógos, "speech", "utterance") is a newly coined term, word or phrase, that may be in the process of entering common use, but has not yet been accepted into mainstream language. Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person, publication, period, or event. Neolexia (Greek: a "new word", or the act of creating a new word) is a fully equivalent term.
The term neologism is first attested in English in 1772, borrowed from French néologisme (1734).[1]
In psychiatry, the term neologism is used to describe the use of words that only have meaning to the person who uses them, independent of their common meaning.[2] This is considered normal in children, but a symptom of thought disorder (indicative of a psychotic mental illness, such as schizophrenia) in adults.[3] .[5]

that pretty much hits the nail firmly on the head.

you seem to ignore that those who created the death tax gave it a palatable name for the same reasons you claim we call it a death tax. I am not controlled by what those who created this abomination want to call it

again, I wonder about someone who spends so much time justifying government confiscation of their neighbor's property
 
Nor are you controlled by reason, facts or rational thought Dude.

The article in Wikipedia is 100% dead on. your right wing fantasy 'death tax' is a neologism. And what is a neologism?

In psychiatry, the term neologism is used to describe the use of words that only have meaning to the person who uses them, independent of their common meaning.[2] This is considered normal in children, but a symptom of thought disorder (indicative of a psychotic mental illness, such as schizophrenia) in adults.

Rational thought has not a thing to do with it.
 
Nor are you controlled by reason, facts or rational thought Dude.

The article in Wikipedia is 100% dead on. your right wing fantasy 'death tax' is a neologism. And what is a neologism?



Rational thought has not a thing to do with it.


I guess you are too gullible to understand that those who pass a law will use the best and most favorable term possible just as those who oppose a law will call it the most unfavorable term that applies. So you failed to apply your sainted wiki definition to one side

why is such bias not surprising.

everyone knows that death tax means the estate tax

so your citation fails its own definition

the common meaning is what I use so not only have you failed to apply your silly citation accurately, it doesn't even have any relevance here
 
from turtle

everyone knows that death tax means the estate tax

so your citation fails its own definition

When you type statements like that, do you actually have a cogent point in mind in your own head and hope that even though you cannot coherently express it, somehow , someway some magic process will occur and transform your word salad of nonsense into something actually says something that makes sense?
 
from turtle



When you type statements like that, do you actually have a cogent point in mind in your own head and hope that even though you cannot coherently express it, somehow , someway some magic process will occur and transform your word salad of nonsense into something actually says something that makes sense?

that is a rather obtuse way of demonstrating a lack of understanding on your part
 
girls, girls. you're both pretty, okay?


now, what are the results of the tax? how much revenue is raised? how much does it cost to raise it? how much is lost in economic activity due to its' presence?
 
that is a rather obtuse way of demonstrating a lack of understanding on your part

No. It is a very direct way of informing you that you make no sense.

If you really had any debating skills, you would do what any debater is trained to do and that is take the Wikipedia sources, follow the citations, and discuss or even attack them point by point. Wikipedia, after all, is merely a gathering place for information. Wikipedia is not your enemy, the information is contains is.
 
girls, girls. you're both pretty, okay?


now, what are the results of the tax? how much revenue is raised? how much does it cost to raise it? how much is lost in economic activity due to its' presence?

millions upon millions are spent to avoid or lessen its impact. insurance, trusts, hiding assets etc. those most in favor of keeping it include two kinds of people-the parasites and those who make lots of money because of the death tax. have you ever noticed that those who make pretextual arguments in its favor never want to really expand it because that would create a massive public backlash?

As you noted-if the argument is that the "heirs" didn't deserve it or if its "income" then why not tax every "estate" "death" or heir rather than just a small group?


the avoidance costs apply to many who ultimately do not face it

Even Secretariat Understood Death Tax

Americans spend about as much hiding from the death tax as it generates ($28.8 billion in 2008, according to the latest revenue data). “The compliance, or more appropriately, the avoidance costs of the transfer tax system may well approach the revenue yield,” observed Alicia Munnell, a member of President Clinton’s Council of Economic Advisers
 
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