"Original Sin" and "Perfect Justice" (1 Viewer)

[Logician Man]

Thread title contains two terms/concepts that have been attributed to Christian theology in this forum. My understanding of "Original Sin" is that all human beings are born with a 'sinful' nature due to Adam and Eve (the first two human beings) making a mistake/bad decision in the Garden of Eden, resulting in "Original Sin" being introduced into this world we live in. For purposes of discussion in this thread, each poster can present his/her 'personal' definition as to what constitutes "Perfect Justice", should he/she so choose to do so.

My question is:

"Where is the "Perfect Justice" in holding 'all' human beings accountable for the bad decision(s) those first two 'other' human beings committed long before subsequent human beings were even created/conceived/born?

 

[OrphanSlug]

"Where is the "Perfect Justice" in holding 'all' human beings accountable for the bad decision(s) those first two 'other' human beings committed long before subsequent human beings were even conceived/born?

My advice is quit looking for logic, or reason, or even critical thought when it comes to all things religion.

 

[Gordy327]

My question is:

"Where is the "Perfect Justice" in holding 'all' human beings accountable for the bad decision(s) those first two 'other' human beings committed long before subsequent human beings were even conceived/born?

There is none. It's like holding the entire family, even over multiple generations, accountable for the actions of one family member. This is a practice you see in despotic places like North Korea. No one in their right mind would consider such a system to be "justice." Religion just cranks that concept up to '11.'

Thread title contains two terms/concepts that have been attributed to Christian theology in this forum. My understanding of "Original Sin" is that all human beings are born with a 'sinful' nature due to Adam and Eve (the first two human beings) making a mistake/bad decision in the Garden of Eden, resulting in "Original Sin" being introduced into this world we live in. For purposes of discussion in this thread, each poster can present his/her 'personal' definition as to what constitutes "Perfect Justice", should he/she so choose to do so.

What that concept is basically saying is, sin must be genetic to be passed down generations of humans, which is absurd. But makes perfect sense in religion

 

[Gordy327]

My advice is quit looking for logic, or reason, or even critical thought when it comes to all things religion.

For in religion, you shall find none. Abandon all logic and reason, ye who enter religion

 

[Fearandloathing]

Thread title contains two terms/concepts that have been attributed to Christian theology in this forum. My understanding of "Original Sin" is that all human beings are born with a 'sinful' nature due to Adam and Eve (the first two human beings) making a mistake/bad decision in the Garden of Eden, resulting in "Original Sin" being introduced into this world we live in. For purposes of discussion in this thread, each poster can present his/her 'personal' definition as to what constitutes "Perfect Justice", should he/she so choose to do so.

My question is:

"Where is the "Perfect Justice" in holding 'all' human beings accountable for the bad decision(s) those first two 'other' human beings committed long before subsequent human beings were even conceived/born?

What is justice?

To one it's his wining the court suit, to the other its defeat, and HE wouldn't consider it justice.

How can we have justice when it cannot be fair? Is it, as in the biblical, an eye for an eye,or as in the other bible, turn the other cheek. And, is turning the other cheek justice?

Then we have the little problem word of "perfect'. Oops. How did that get in there? What is "perfect" and who determines?

These are equatable terms that are meant to convey a result or resolution of conflict.

As to the bible?


It's bullshit.

Why would a God invent people only to have to wreck their lives? He couldn't get it right (perfect) the first time?

So in the end whose fault is it we aren't perfect?


The answer is that if someone made us, they weren't perfect!!!!!!!

 

[Fearandloathing]

There is none. It's like holding the entire family, even over multiple generations, accountable for the actions of one family member. This is a practice you see in despotic places like North Korea. No one in their right mind would consider such a system to be "justice." Religion just cranks that concept up to '11.'

What that concept is basically saying is, sin must be genetic to be passed down generations of humans, which is absurd. But makes perfect sense in religion

And...

It's a wonderful lever to make people behave in meek ways....

 

[Daisy]

What Was the Original Sin?​

The Bible’s answer​

Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin. When they disobeyed God by eating from “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad,” they committed what many call the original sin.a (Genesis 2:16, 17; 3:6; Romans 5:19) That tree was off-limits to Adam and Eve because it represented God’s authority, or right, to decide what is right and wrong for humans. By eating from the tree, Adam and Eve took matters into their own hands, choosing to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. In doing so, they rejected God’s moral authority.

• How did the “original sin” affect Adam and Eve?
• How does the “original sin” affect us?
• Can we be set free from the results of the “original sin”?
• Misconceptions about “original sin”

How did the “original sin” affect Adam and Eve?​

Because they sinned, Adam and Eve grew old and finally died. They ruined their friendship with God and lost the prospect of living forever in perfect health.—Genesis 3:19.

How does the “original sin” affect us?​

Adam and Eve passed on their sinful condition to all their descendants. This is similar to the way human parents pass on genetic defects. (Romans 5:12) Thus, all humans have been born “in sin,”b meaning that we are born imperfect and inclined toward error.—Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:3.
Because of inherited sin, or imperfection, we get sick, grow old, and die. (Romans 6:23) We also suffer the consequences of our own errors and those of others.—Ecclesiastes 8:9; James 3:2.

Can we be set free from the results of the “original sin”?​

Yes. The Bible says that Jesus died “as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” (1 John 4:10, footnote) Jesus’ sacrifice can free us from the effects of inherited sin and allow us to have what Adam and Eve lost—the prospect of everlasting life in perfect health.—John 3:16.c

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502019188

 

[Daisy]

Misconceptions about “original sin”​

Misconception: Original sin permanently alienates us from God.
Fact: God does not blame us for what Adam and Eve did. He understands that we are imperfect, and he does not expect more of us than he knows is reasonable. (Psalm 103:14) Even though we suffer from inherited sin, we have the opportunity and privilege of having a close friendship with God.—Proverbs 3:32.
Misconception: Baptism frees a person from original sin, so babies need to be baptized.
Fact: Although baptism is a vital step toward gaining salvation, only faith in Jesus’ sacrifice can cleanse a person from sin. (1 Peter 3:21; 1 John 1:7) Because Biblical faith is based on knowledge, it is not possible for infants to have faith. The Bible, therefore, does not endorse infant baptism. This fact was evident among the early Christians. They baptized, not babies, but believers—“men and women” who had faith in God’s Word.—Acts 2:41; 8:12.
Misconception: God cursed women because Eve was the first to eat the forbidden fruit.
Fact: Instead of cursing women, God cursed “the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan,” who incited Eve to sin. (Revelation 12:9; Genesis 3:14) What is more, God placed the primary responsibility for the original sin on Adam, not on his wife.—Romans 5:12.
Why did God say that Adam would dominate his wife? (Genesis 3:16) When making this statement, God was not condoning such behavior. He was simply foretelling a sad consequence of sin. God expects a man to love and honor his wife and to show deep respect for women in general.—Ephesians 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7.
Misconception: The original sin was sexual intercourse.
Fact: The original sin could not have been sexual intercourse for the following reasons:

• God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad while Adam was still alone, without a wife.—Genesis 2:17, 18.
• God instructed Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and become many”—that is, to have children. (Genesis 1:28) It would have been cruel for God to punish the first couple for doing what he had commanded them to do.
• Adam and Eve sinned separately—Eve first and her husband later.—Genesis 3:6.
• The Bible approves of sexual relations between a husband and wife.—Proverbs 5:18, 19; 1 Corinthians 7:3.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502019188

 

[Gordy327]

It's bullshit.

Religion in a nutshell.

Why would a God invent people only to have to wreck their lives? He couldn't get it right (perfect) the first time?

Or the second.

So in the end whose fault is it we aren't perfect?

The buck stops at god.

The answer is that if someone made us, they weren't perfect!!!!!!!

I have asked before in similar discussions, how can a perfect being create something imperfect? It's illogical.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Religion in a nutshell.

Or the second.

The buck stops at god.

I have asked before in similar discussions, how can a perfect being create something imperfect? It's illogical.

If we are to believe even "intelligent design" then the designer is pretty bad. The body is scientifically designed to last about 125 years. The pancreas, responsible for controlling blood sugar levels is designed to last about 50-75 years.

Henry Ford was better than that.

 

[Gordy327]

If we are to believe even "intelligent design" then the designer is pretty bad. The body is scientifically designed to last about 125 years. The pancreas, responsible for controlling blood sugar levels is designed to last about 50-75 years.

Henry Ford was better than that.

Don't forget cellular flaws or malfunctions that can lead to cancer, even in otherwise healthy individuals. It's like "designing" a house to collapse.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Thread title contains two terms/concepts that have been attributed to Christian theology in this forum. My understanding of "Original Sin" is that all human beings are born with a 'sinful' nature due to Adam and Eve (the first two human beings) making a mistake/bad decision in the Garden of Eden, resulting in "Original Sin" being introduced into this world we live in. For purposes of discussion in this thread, each poster can present his/her 'personal' definition as to what constitutes "Perfect Justice", should he/she so choose to do so.

My question is:

"Where is the "Perfect Justice" in holding 'all' human beings accountable for the bad decision(s) those first two 'other' human beings committed long before subsequent human beings were even created/conceived/born?

OK....

Now to address the question....

What does it achieve, from God's point of view, to hamstring the new generations with a debt never to be paid?

It's punishment of the innocent for an expired crime. It's holding hostage generations, attaching a weight around their neck for life.

It's the sort of thing a bully would do

 

[Fearandloathing]

Don't forget cellular flaws or malfunctions that can lead to cancer, even in otherwise healthy individuals. It's like "designing" a house to collapse.

Psoriasis!

Oh that's a lovely gift. A cancer that doesn't kill, just makes everyday life unbearable.

And there's slavery! Eventually it was the Vatican that created the slave trade.

Thank God.

 

[Gordy327]

It's the sort of thing a bully would do

Or a socio/psychopath.

 

[Gordy327]

Psoriasis!

Oh that's a lovely gift. A cancer that doesn't kill, just makes everyday life unbearable.

The gift that keeps on giving, eh?

And there's slavery! Eventually it was the Vatican that created the slave trade.

Thank God.

It should be noted neither god or the bible actually prohibit slavery.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Or a socio/psychopath.

I use 'bully' for that whole group.

They don't deserve scientific reasoning

 

[Gordy327]

I use 'bully' for that whole group.

They don't deserve scientific reasoning

Fair enough. But you know me, I loves me some scientific reasoning.

 

[Argent]

I have no idea what perfect justice is and how it would differ from justice or imperfect justice. My version of justice is fluid and based on individual situations.

The original sin pre-existed Adam and Eve. Imo, the original sin was perpetrated by God when it created, despite its omniscience and omnipotence, an entity capable of disobedience -- Lucifer. Lucifer disobeyed God which God considers a sin. If it's too hard for some to blame God the first sin, Satan is a good 2nd choice. Humans are the scapegoats for God's oopsie.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Fair enough. But you know me, I loves me some scientific reasoning.

AT my age I have become more reptilian. Food? Not Food. Interesting? Not interesting, food.

 

[Logician Man]

Humans are the scapegoats for God's oopsie.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

There is none. It's like holding the entire family, even over multiple generations

"...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."-Deuteronomy 5:9

 

[Gordy327]

"...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."-Deuteronomy 5:9

Not a good advertisement for God.

 

[Revelation]

If we are to believe even "intelligent design" then the designer is pretty bad.

the design is Wonderful, serves it's purpose for a short time and will be exchanged for an Eternal body at Expiration.

The body is scientifically designed to last about 125 years. The pancreas, responsible for controlling blood sugar levels is designed to last about 50-75 years.

before the Flood, the body easily lasted 125 years and many lasted way more like 900 years.

after the Flood, God said our lives to be about 70 years, some more and some less.

My point, 70 years is plenty long to find the Lord and live a holy repentant life. my plea to atheists and nominal christians is to find the good bible church in your area and Cry out to the Lord, perhaps he will hear you if your heart is right.

this forum there is Little Chance of that happening, you will be like Cartoon man, weighed in the balance and found wanting.


Psalm 90:10in the King James Version (KJV), it states: "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away"

.In Genesis 6:3, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years"

Henry Ford was better than that.

we are not cars.

...the good Cartoon man thought ahead and now is fine for all Eternity..............you can too.

you Bible? on the shelf, could be in yur hands. shall we start yet?

.

 

[Revelation]

Not a good advertisement for God.

that is true.

but God.

some turn to Jesus in repentance and faith and break the curse. you can too.

blessings.

 

[Revelation]

AT my age I have become more reptilian. Food? Not Food. Interesting? Not interesting, food.

repent and seek the Lord regardless of your age.

remember the thief on the Cross turned to Jesus and asked the LOrd to remember him when he went to paradise.

Jesus did.

so can you............so CAN you. what is stopping you now?

for most, the Devil. he wants one more Soul to cook in his Toaster, most will listen to the devil rather than the God who loves them so much, he died for their sin.

some call rejecting God 'intelligent' !!!

show me. bye.