Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments.

[jmotivator]

Most the time men make the choice.

Sometimes during an unplanned pregnancy they don't have the choice.

Wrong. Most of the time both parties to the pregnancy had a choice.

The only reason that men today feel like they have no rights is because the shadow of abortion blots out enlightened natural logic and imposes an illogical imbalance.

 

[minnie616]

Wrong. Most of the time both parties to the pregnancy had a choice.

The only reason that men today feel like they have no rights is because the shadow of abortion blots out enlightened natural logic and imposes an illogical imbalance.

A study of abortion and couples concluded that in unplanned pregnancies it was the male parter in 44 percent of the cases who first instigated the abortion decision.

Married women also abort because of spousal pressure. One study found that 44% of husbands instigated the abortion decision.2 If the couple is dependent on the wife’s income to supplement the household budget, a new baby is often seen by the man primarily in terms of the negative impact it will have on the family’s finances. Or he may not be willing to see his wife’s attention diverted away from himself as she cares for the young child.

lifeissues.net | The Effects of Abortion on Marriage and Other Committed Relationships

 

[jmotivator]

A study of abortion and couples concluded that in unplanned pregnancies it was the male parter in 44 percent of the cases who first instigated the abortion decision.

So in a 50/50 relationship the man initiated the final decision ... less than 50% of the time. I don't think this is as compelling as you seem to think.

 

[minnie616]

So in a 50/50 relationship the man initiated the final decision ... less than 50% of the time. I don't think this is as compelling as you seem to think.

44 percent is quite high and the fact the word initiated instead of the words mentioned or brought up is also quite telling , especially since it would be the woman telling the man that she was pregnant.

 

[jaeger19]

Is a zygote a person?

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who cares.. its immaterial.

 

[jaeger19]

Wrong. Most of the time both parties to the pregnancy had a choice.

The only reason that men today feel like they have no rights is because the shadow of abortion blots out enlightened natural logic and imposes an illogical imbalance.

Yeah.. the only reason that men today feel like they have no rights... because back in the day.. they could force a woman to do what they wanted..and the law supported that.

The expression "keep them barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen".. wasn't "just an expression".. for most of history.

 

[jmotivator]

Yeah.. the only reason that men today feel like they have no rights... because back in the day.. they could force a woman to do what they wanted..and the law supported that.

The expression "keep them barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen".. wasn't "just an expression".. for most of history.

Social Justice Warrior: Wronging you and your generation for past hardships you are not responsible for and that they never experienced.

 

[jaeger19]

Social Justice Warrior: Wronging you and your generation for past hardships you are not responsible for and that they never experienced.

Yeah.. you will have to explain how women being able to control what happens with their own bodies.. is "wronging me and my generation"..

 

[trouble13]

Yeah.. you will have to explain how women being able to control what happens with their own bodies.. is "wronging me and my generation"..

How is a man telling a woman that if she wants to carry a pregenancy to full term to not expect his help with the child that may result from that decission controling what choices a woman has? Your making a strawman argument.

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[jmotivator]

Yeah.. you will have to explain how women being able to control what happens with their own bodies.. is "wronging me and my generation"..

You have decided to jump into a conversation without understanding what was being discussed first. Please try to not address such drivel directly directly to me if you don't actually wish to discuss what I was talking about.

 

[jmotivator]

How is a man telling a woman that if she wants to carry a pregenancy to full term to not expect his help with the child that may result from that decission controling what choices a woman has? Your making a strawman argument.

Exactly.

 

[jmotivator]

44 percent is quite high and the fact the word initiated instead of the words mentioned or brought up is also quite telling , especially since it would be the woman telling the man that she was pregnant.

56% is even higher!

STATISTICS!

 

[minnie616]

56% is even higher!

STATISTICS!

So if ( and that's a big leap as the STATISTICS do not say that ) she mentioned it 56 percent of the time and he agreed....what's the big deal?

 

[trouble13]

So if ( and that's a big leap as the STATISTICS do not say that ) she mentioned it 56 percent of the time and he agreed....what's the big deal?

Exactly, whats the big deal if only 4% of the time men are goimg to want to opt out. Its not a significant enough amount to justify withholding mens rights from them, is it.

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[jaeger19]

How is a man telling a woman that if she wants to carry a pregenancy to full term to not expect his help with the child that may result from that decission controling what choices a woman has? Your making a strawman argument.

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that doesn't. He is perfectly able to say that.. of course the law will require him to pay for that responsibility if the child is borne..


Because saying one doesn't want to be responsible for their behavior.. doesn't mean that a person should not be held accountable for his behavior.

If he does not want to help with a child that may result from his decision to have sex with her.. he has two obvious choices.. not have sex with her.. or get a vasectomy..

 

[jaeger19]

You have decided to jump into a conversation without understanding what was being discussed first. Please try to not address such drivel directly directly to me if you don't actually wish to discuss what I was talking about.

You QUOTED ME.. and responded to my post. If you don't want to discuss it.. then don;t quote me.

 

[thinkagain]

that doesn't. He is perfectly able to say that.. of course the law will require him to pay for that responsibility if the child is borne..


Because saying one doesn't want to be responsible for their behavior.. doesn't mean that a person should not be held accountable for his behavior.

If he does not want to help with a child that may result from his decision to have sex with her.. he has two obvious choices.. not have sex with her.. or get a vasectomy..

We all know what the law is Mr. Obvious. Bad men make bad laws.

The current law violates a number of principles of Justice as per the rule of law.

1) One person is not to be punished for the actions of another.
2) Equal Justice under the law.

This was not the case in prior days when women were helpless victims.

Women are no longer helpless victims even though the Law treats them as such.

 

[minnie616]

We all know what the law is Mr. Obvious. Bad men make bad laws.

The current law violates a number of principles of Justice as per the rule of law.

1) One person is not to be punished for the actions of another.
2) Equal Justice under the law.

This was not the case in prior days when women were helpless victims.

Women are no longer helpless victims even though the Law treats them as such.

Actually continuing a pregnancy is not taking any action.

Having an abortion would be taking action.

 

[thinkagain]

Actually continuing a pregnancy is not taking any action.

Having an abortion would be taking action.

Action/Decision ... it matters not .. call it "the consequences of a unilateral decision by another".

There is the whole "mens rea" "actus rea" question as well if one wants to get technical

actus rea= one must have committed the crime
mens rea= one must have intended it.

In court the prosecution must prove both. I suppose one might be able to make some argument that the man was partially responsible. This is complicated by the principle of mitigation. Just because I throw a rock through your window ... If it rains a few days later and you have done nothing to mitigate the damage I am not responsible for the wrecked furniture.

Good luck getting men's rea .. If there was no intent to have a child expressed by either party then it must be assumed that no child was intended.


I am just going through some of the legal motions here for fun. Rule of law ... one person not responsible for the actions (not doing anything is an action - via the mitigation principle) of another.

The second major principle is equal justice under the law. The woman has the ability/right to not be responsible for the financial consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term.

Equal justice demands that the man then has the same right. Making one person financially responsible for the unilateral decision of another is an anathema to justice on many levels.

These laws come from a time where there were few options for unintended pregnancy (such that the woman was a victim) and/or an overwhelming majority had puritan beliefs in relation to sex.

We are not living in the dark ages any more. Women are not helpless victims. Time to stop pretending otherwise.

 

[thinkagain]

Actually continuing a pregnancy is not taking any action.

Having an abortion would be taking action.

There is one more good argument ... this may be the best one.

In the case of two people having sex and there is no mention by the woman that she intends to/wants to have a baby ( A serious decision) It is negligence at minimum, and willful deceit in general.

The man should then automatically get sole custody should he want it based on serious flaws in the character of the woman. Negligent and/or willfully deceitful.

Then let's see how many woman carry an unintended pregnancy to term. What is good for the goose is not so good for the gander now is it. Equality is not so fun any more all of a sudden.

This whole "I spread my legs and you took the bait so now I get to screw the rest of your life up" is about as lame an argument as it gets. Time to stop pretending that women are innocent helpless victims.

 

[minnie616]

There is one more good argument ... this may be the best one.

In the case of two people having sex and there is no mention by the woman that she intends to/wants to have a baby ( A serious decision) It is negligence at minimum, and willful deceit in general.

The man should then automatically get sole custody should he want it based on serious flaws in the character of the woman. Negligent and/or willfully deceitful.

Then let's see how many woman carry an unintended pregnancy to term. What is good for the goose is not so good for the gander now is it. Equality is not so fun any more all of a sudden.

This whole "I spread my legs and you took the bait so now I get to screw the rest of your life up" is about as lame an argument as it gets. Time to stop pretending that women are innocent helpless victims.

Not an argument.

Unintended pregnancy means unintended.
Since many unplanned pregnancies are a result of a birth control failure.

In fact over 65 percent of US women of child bearing years use artificial birth control constantly and that's not counting the women who have had tubal ligations or who are steril ( incapable of becoming pregnant from medical reasons).

Continuing the pregnancy means taking no action and letting nature takes its course. 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage , a small number end in stillbirth.

 

[thinkagain]

Not an argument.

.

Of course I made an argument. An argument which you did not address.

Claim 1) If a woman does not notify her sex partner that she intends to carry an unintended pregnancy to term (prior to sex) This constitutes negligence and/or willful deceit.

Agree or disagree ?

Unintended pregnancy means unintended.
Since many unplanned pregnancies are a result of a birth control failure.

In fact over 65 percent of US women of child bearing years use artificial birth control constantly and that's not counting the women who have had tubal ligations or who are steril ( incapable of becoming pregnant from medical reasons).

Continuing the pregnancy means taking no action and letting nature takes its course. 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage , a small number end in stillbirth

I did not say unintended did not mean "unintended" and the rest of your post does not address any of my claims.

back to Claim 1) agree or disagree - with reasons of course.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

Thanks for the reply. I can clearly see the inequalities in rights and laws that impact men in a profound way with regard to several issues related to reproduction.

Given what we know, I think that unless these inequalities are approached from a way that doesn't elicit a Supreme Court or Legislative response, then there is what appears to me a futility that's going to linger for sometime to come in the future.

Men's Rights Groups have virtually failed to break through the legal walls, if you will, to somehow equal the playing field.

I've seen some posters offer their 2 cents worth on a remedy, but if I respond to those in a way that points out a fallacy, or perhaps, just noting that they aren't connecting all of the dots, the complexities involved, then I'm accused of "appealing to authority". I don't subscribe to, nor do I believe that the inequities are the right thing, but yet, I personally don't see how to use the conventional instruments of law to somehow alleviate some significant liabilities that men do have to live with...without recourse.

I don't have a good solution. You can't really legislate responsibility. But let's cut the crap about how a woman's right to choose outweighs the baby's right to live. If we are going to allow it, let's be honest about it. To pro-life people I tell them that if you want to end abortion, raise your kids not to believe in it. For all of the arguments against abortion we have as many now as ever. It isn't like this is just one girl hanging out with the wrong crowd. If the parents would do their job abortion would over time simply dying from survivor bias.

 

[year2late]

Of course I made an argument. An argument which you did not address.

Claim 1) If a woman does not notify her sex partner that she intends to carry an unintended pregnancy to term (prior to sex) This constitutes negligence and/or willful deceit.

Agree or disagree ?

Of course she should notify him (assuming she knows who or where the father is).

 

[minnie616]

Of course I made an argument. An argument which you did not address.

Claim 1) If a woman does not notify her sex partner that she intends to carry an unintended pregnancy to term (prior to sex) This constitutes negligence and/or willful deceit.

Agree or disagree ?



.

Why doesn't the man ask before sex if he is concerned about what her decision would be?

If he asks she should to answer as honestly as she can but I will tell you a lot of women most likely do not know how they would react until they are faced with the situation.

I was very ill during my first pregnancy and became so anemic my doctor was afraid I might bleed to death during delivery.

I wanted to have a child so I accepted the risk but if I already had young ones home who needed me I might have chosen an abortion ...I honesty just don't know what I would have done.

How can you expect a woman to know how she react in a hypothetical situation?