• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

One reason men insist on owning a gun

I see what you mean. In that case it would depend on how well you can control the tool whether it be a firearm or a chainsaw.

But the fact of the matter is, being afraid of a chainsaw or firearm or any other object that is just sitting there and not doing anything is just plain silly.

There is rational fear (often called respect) and irrational fear (what anti gun advocates often demonstrate).

When one becomes too comfortable with (no longer has a rational fear of) a potentially dangerous item one opens oneself to a mishap.

My 2¢
 
Oh ****, here we go!


None of which refutes anything I wrote. Handguns we're generally discussing as related to gun control, were designed to kill humans efficiently. So were most rifles that we're discussing.

They aren't just "dangerous objects. Many objects are "dangerous". They were specifically designed to kill humans with the squeeze of a trigger. That some are better than others due to design constraints like "portability", is 100% irrelevant.


So absurd it hurts. You think it's easier to get a plane and crash it into a building, than it is to shoot people...or blow them up using explosives? What on earth are you doing?

Regardless of the absurdity of your new tangent, you prove my point. As a result of 9/11, *even more* limitations and safety measures were placed on air travel, and more spent on tracking potential terrorist cells, etc.
Exactly what gun control advocates want, more limitations and safety on firearms.


No one is arguing the relatively important of what something is designed for. Read the original reply. He said guns are dangerous objects...I'm saying he didn't go far enough. Guns are purposefully designed to kill humans AND as a result are dangerous objects.

I love that you're completely open to gun control similar to airline industry though...that's quite a heavily regulated industry and there are statistically *VERY FEW* deaths resulting in the U.S. from aircraft. We just need to get everyone else on board with your great idea.

Yes, guns are dangerous. That's the entire point.

Caetano v Massachusetts, 2016, a 9-0 SCOTUS decision:

As to “dangerous,” the court below held that a weapon is “dangerous per se” if it is “ ‘designed and constructed to produce death or great bodily harm’ and ‘for the purpose of bodily assault or defense.’ ” 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692 (quoting Commonwealth v. Appleby, 380 Mass. 296, 303, 402 N. E. 2d 1051, 1056 (1980)). That test may be appropriate for applying statutes criminalizing assault with a dangerous weapon. See ibid., 402 N. E. 2d, at 1056. But it cannot be used to identify arms that fall outside the Second Amendment. First, the relative dangerousness of a weapon is irrelevant when the weapon belongs to a class of arms commonly used for lawful purposes. See Heller, supra, at 627 (contrasting “ ‘dangerous and unusual weapons’ ” that may be banned with protected “weapons . . . ‘in common use at the time’ ”). Second, even in cases where dangerousness might be relevant, the Supreme Judicial Court’s test sweeps far too broadly. Heller defined the “Arms” covered by the Second Amendment to include “ ‘any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.’ ” 554 U. S., at 581. Under the decision below, however, virtually every covered arm would qualify as “dangerous.”

Were there any doubt on this point, one need only look at the court’s first example of “dangerous per se” weapons: “firearms.” 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d, at 692. If Heller tells us anything, it is that firearms cannot be categorically prohibited just because they are dangerous. 554 U. S., at 636. A fortiori, stun guns that the Commonwealth’s own witness described as “non-lethal force,” Tr. 27, cannot be banned on that basis.
 
If it were that simple the problem would have been solved decades ago...

Firstly not all crimes warrant jail time, thus the proposition that any crime (that would limit someone from owning a firearm) should lead to the person being put in jail is not achievable nor viable. Secondly its not financially viable to just "lock everyone up". The average costs of an inmate per year is $40,000 (even up to $60,000 in some stated). That proposition too is financially not viable nor sustainable. Lastly the biggest issue is a)identifying the criminals b)taking appropriate action on the criminals c)stopping people from becoming further criminals. Stephen Paddock wasn't a criminal prior to his malicious act. Nicholas Cruze was not either. The same goes for many others....you cannot read the future and lock someone before they commit a criminals act. This is the problem with the gun legislation. It's based on a system of trust and as long as I and many others live I will not trust the general population to act lawfully.

Do you trust the general population not to stab people with knives, hit them with clubs or rape innocent victims?
 
Yes, guns are dangerous. That's the entire point.

Exactly! I have no idea why a few people keep trying absurdly to debate it.

I think it's a knee-jerk reaction...they know I am in favor of greater regulations on guns, so they just attack regardless of the actual content.
 
You got to love the left. Worried about gun ownership because it might take a life. Not worried about abortion and we know it takes a life.
 
If it were that simple the problem would have been solved decades ago...

Firstly not all crimes warrant jail time, thus the proposition that any crime (that would limit someone from owning a firearm) should lead to the person being put in jail is not achievable nor viable. Secondly its not financially viable to just "lock everyone up". The average costs of an inmate per year is $40,000 (even up to $60,000 in some stated). That proposition too is financially not viable nor sustainable. Lastly the biggest issue is a)identifying the criminals b)taking appropriate action on the criminals c)stopping people from becoming further criminals. Stephen Paddock wasn't a criminal prior to his malicious act. Nicholas Cruze was not either. The same goes for many others....you cannot read the future and lock someone before they commit a criminals act. This is the problem with the gun legislation. It's based on a system of trust and as long as I and many others live I will not trust the general population to act lawfully.

First you can not stop every gun crime!! If someone is intent on hurting another person (in a free society) it will happen.

If the people that are using firearms in criminal activities go to jail they won't be causing problem with firearms.

It is easy but some want to take guns from lawful citizens instead of making the guilty serve their time in jail!
 
Flamethrowers are legal in all states except Maryland. As for live grenades Im not sure of the legality of those.

I would also add California. However point taken and I would remove that remark on flamethrowers

Grenades are a weapon and are illegal in all US states. What is clear is there are weapons of which have questionably suitability given the current climate, deaths, injuries and actions yet are still legal.
 
Oh ****, here we go!


None of which refutes anything I wrote. Handguns we're generally discussing as related to gun control, were designed to kill humans efficiently. So were most rifles that we're discussing.

They aren't just "dangerous objects. Many objects are "dangerous". They were specifically designed to kill humans with the squeeze of a trigger. That some are better than others due to design constraints like "portability", is 100% irrelevant.
Yet the rifle is better for killing people than the handgun is. As I said, what an object is good at is more important than what it was originally designed for.


So absurd it hurts. You think it's easier to get a plane and crash it into a building, than it is to shoot people...or blow them up using explosives? What on earth are you doing?

Regardless of the absurdity of your new tangent, you prove my point. As a result of 9/11, *even more* limitations and safety measures were placed on air travel, and more spent on tracking potential terrorist cells, etc.
Exactly what gun control advocates want, more limitations and safety on firearms.
You don't need a big commercial jet airplane if you want to use a plane as a bomb. You can buy a used propeller plane for less than what you might think without having to pass any background check and fly it into a crowd.

No one is arguing the relatively important of what something is designed for. Read the original reply. He said guns are dangerous objects...I'm saying he didn't go far enough. Guns are purposefully designed to kill humans AND as a result are dangerous objects.
Well guns are supposed to be dangerous. If they weren't dangerous they wouldn't be good at the job they're intended for, stopping bad guys. Or in some cases bringing down game if you're hunting. Obviously a "safe" gun such as a toy cap gun would be totally ineffective at either of those two things.

I love that you're completely open to gun control similar to airline industry though...that's quite a heavily regulated industry and there are statistically *VERY FEW* deaths resulting in the U.S. from aircraft. We just need to get everyone else on board with your great idea.
See above.
 
And "some" men have old guys surrounded by dozens of heavily armed swat team members being tailed by forewarned camera crews to seize them for committing insignificant process crimes, "as a means of showing superiority." So what? Welcome to the new democrat "Goddamn America."

Patriots: Keep your guns loaded. Once they get all the harmless old guys behind bars they could quite likely be coming for your guns next.

First and foremost we are not living in 19th century America. There is no civil war. No impending foreign attack. No muskets. This is the 21st century where America has the highest firearm numbers per person and of which outweighs the people. America is an outlier in the Western World when it comes to firearm legislation and control. America has an increasing number of firearm deaths with 110,000 casualties every year and rising. To add onto that notion......nothing is being done to fix it. All talk no action.

To be clear the legislation of guns should not be seen as an attack or risk, its simply protecting a very important element of every individuals existence. That is life. Gun Control protects peoples right to live and right to feel secure.
 
I would also add California. However point taken and I would remove that remark on flamethrowers
You can have flamethrowers in California as long as they don't project fire over ten feet. In Maryland flamethrowers are completely banned although I don't know of their definition of what a flamethrower is. In all other states as far as Im aware there is no ban or regulations on flamethrowers.

Grenades are a weapon and are illegal in all US states. What is clear is there are weapons of which have questionably suitability given the current climate, deaths, injuries and actions yet are still legal.
A grenade might be illegal as a destructive device however grenades would not be used for self defense or for hunting or sport. That can be argued as constitutional as some people would say it violates the 2nd Amendment.
 
Do you trust the general population not to stab people with knives, hit them with clubs or rape innocent victims?

No I don't really trust the general population to do anything.

When you compare a weapon that was designed to be a weapon and always will be a weapon and compare that to an object that is essential to daily life and thats primary purpose is not as a weapon it's slightly inaccurate.

So in summary. Comparing very different objects, weapons, acts and behaviours means solutions, actions and propositions will be very very different.
 
When you compare a weapon that was designed to be a weapon and always will be a weapon and compare that to an object that is essential to daily life and thats primary purpose is not as a weapon it's slightly inaccurate.

A compound bow was designed as a weapon and always will be a weapon.
 
First you can not stop every gun crime!! If someone is intent on hurting another person (in a free society) it will happen.

Firstly...I never stated we necessarily could.
To your second point....why don't we just remove all sexual assault legislation (because they will do it anyway)....why don't we just remove all drug legislation (they will take them anyway). That point of view is not acceptable, we don't just give in because the chance of it happening and the freedom of the population is high. We legislate, put programs in place, assist, fund and do anything necessary to limit that intent of hurting other people.

If the people that are using firearms in criminal activities go to jail they won't be causing problem with firearms.

So you would happily have funding come out of hospitals, schools and pay more taxes to fund more prisons and more inmates. That solution is not achievable to just lock everyone up. I agree that criminals who have committed gun crimes do need to be locked up. But you can lock up as many people as you would like it will not solve the problem, it would an endless maze. If only the solution was that simple.

It is easy but some want to take guns from lawful citizens instead of making the guilty serve their time in jail!

Here is the problem...Stephen Paddock was a lawful citizen until he committed the crime. This is the case in a lot of the circumstances. Thus applying this notion of "don't take guns off lawful citizens" does not work. I go back to my point before....the whole system is a system of trust. From the point someone gains a firearm license or firearm we are expected to just put faith they will act lawfully. Nothing will stop a lawful citizen like Stephen Paddock from getting angry, sad, frustrated, politically motivated or the like and carry out an unlawful act. That is very very clear and for that I will not put trust in that system.
 
You can have flamethrowers in California as long as they don't project fire over ten feet. In Maryland flamethrowers are completely banned although I don't know of their definition of what a flamethrower is. In all other states as far as Im aware there is no ban or regulations on flamethrowers.

The legislation doesn't actually specify the rulings on anything under 10 feet and their is no clear application of the legislation. So I don't 100% support any proposition in this area.

Yes that is correct.


A grenade might be illegal as a destructive device however grenades would not be used for self defense or for hunting or sport. That can be argued as constitutional as some people would say it violates the 2nd Amendment.

To the point of self defence.....its a matter of interpretation. You don't believe that grenades would serve the purpose, I don't believe self defence should be used at all to have ownership of a weapon. Grenades are a weapon (a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage....you can't disagree with that...) diverging away from that term is diverging away from the flaws in the current legislation.

To extend on what can be argued. The Constitution is such an interpretive, fluctuating document with no clear understanding of what it truely means. This proven in 2008. For 33 years the 2nd Amendment was interpreted in a way that allowed legislation to ban handguns. Why suddenly did, after 33 years, this become eradicated. Did the Constitution change its wording. Its simply a political circus, where politics, antics and views determine an interpretation that suits the powers at the time.
 
First and foremost we are not living in 19th century America. There is no civil war. No impending foreign attack. No muskets. This is the 21st century where America has the highest firearm numbers per person and of which outweighs the people. America is an outlier in the Western World when it comes to firearm legislation and control. America has an increasing number of firearm deaths with 110,000 casualties every year and rising. To add onto that notion......nothing is being done to fix it. All talk no action.

To be clear the legislation of guns should not be seen as an attack or risk, its simply protecting a very important element of every individuals existence. That is life. Gun Control protects peoples right to live and right to feel secure.

Lefties see guns as the problem. God and Christians see the devil, sin and unbelief as the problem. Removing guns by force from the fingers of patriotic Americans will not miraculously turn savages into saints.
 
The legislation doesn't actually specify the rulings on anything under 10 feet and their is no clear application of the legislation. So I don't 100% support any proposition in this area.

Yes that is correct.




To the point of self defence.....its a matter of interpretation. You don't believe that grenades would serve the purpose, I don't believe self defence should be used at all to have ownership of a weapon. Grenades are a weapon (a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage....you can't disagree with that...) diverging away from that term is diverging away from the flaws in the current legislation.

To extend on what can be argued. The Constitution is such an interpretive, fluctuating document with no clear understanding of what it truely means. This proven in 2008. For 33 years the 2nd Amendment was interpreted in a way that allowed legislation to ban handguns. Why suddenly did, after 33 years, this become eradicated. Did the Constitution change its wording. Its simply a political circus, where politics, antics and views determine an interpretation that suits the powers at the time.

How did the Constitution allow handguns to be banned? Was it ever reviewed by SCOTUS before Heller?
 
To the point of self defence.....its a matter of interpretation. You don't believe that grenades would serve the purpose, I don't believe self defence should be used at all to have ownership of a weapon. Grenades are a weapon (a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage....you can't disagree with that...) diverging away from that term is diverging away from the flaws in the current legislation.

To extend on what can be argued. The Constitution is such an interpretive, fluctuating document with no clear understanding of what it truely means. This proven in 2008. For 33 years the 2nd Amendment was interpreted in a way that allowed legislation to ban handguns. Why suddenly did, after 33 years, this become eradicated. Did the Constitution change its wording. Its simply a political circus, where politics, antics and views determine an interpretation that suits the powers at the time.

Why shouldn't people own weapons for self defense? Grenades aren't going to be used for self defense but one of the main reasons of not the main reason people own guns is for self defense. As to why the de facto ban on handguns in D.C. was lifted in 2008 that was a decision of the SCOTUS. If anything, today's SCOTUS is going to be in even more favor of gun rights than it was back then. Particularly with Trump in office. He's already appointed two SCOTUS justices and might soon appoint a third. If he gets re-elected in 2020 he might appoint even more and they will most likely be in there for a long long time.
 
Here is the problem...Stephen Paddock was a lawful citizen until he committed the crime. This is the case in a lot of the circumstances.

No its not, Stephen Paddock is the exception not the rule. Most guns used in crime were not obtained legally by the user. Very rarely does a lawful gun owner cease to be lawful and use his gun(s) in crime. The few times this does happen it just happens to make the front page on the news. Of the millions and millions of lawful gun owners in the USA, far less than one percent ever use their guns in crime.
 
Here is the problem...Stephen Paddock was a lawful citizen until he committed the crime. This is the case in a lot of the circumstances. Thus applying this notion of "don't take guns off lawful citizens" does not work. I go back to my point before....the whole system is a system of trust. From the point someone gains a firearm license or firearm we are expected to just put faith they will act lawfully. Nothing will stop a lawful citizen like Stephen Paddock from getting angry, sad, frustrated, politically motivated or the like and carry out an unlawful act. That is very very clear and for that I will not put trust in that system.

Given that you don't trust anyone with firearms, or knives, bats and penises, perhaps you should stay indoors and ruminate on your trust issues. Or perhaps you're just projecting your inability to be trusted on everyone else.

Oh, and no one cares if you can't trust the system.
 
Firstly...I never stated we necessarily could.
To your second point....why don't we just remove all sexual assault legislation (because they will do it anyway)....why don't we just remove all drug legislation (they will take them anyway). That point of view is not acceptable, we don't just give in because the chance of it happening and the freedom of the population is high. We legislate, put programs in place, assist, fund and do anything necessary to limit that intent of hurting other people.



So you would happily have funding come out of hospitals, schools and pay more taxes to fund more prisons and more inmates. That solution is not achievable to just lock everyone up. I agree that criminals who have committed gun crimes do need to be locked up. But you can lock up as many people as you would like it will not solve the problem, it would an endless maze. If only the solution was that simple.



Here is the problem...Stephen Paddock was a lawful citizen until he committed the crime. This is the case in a lot of the circumstances. Thus applying this notion of "don't take guns off lawful citizens" does not work. I go back to my point before....the whole system is a system of trust. From the point someone gains a firearm license or firearm we are expected to just put faith they will act lawfully. Nothing will stop a lawful citizen like Stephen Paddock from getting angry, sad, frustrated, politically motivated or the like and carry out an unlawful act. That is very very clear and for that I will not put trust in that system.

You are just rattling and crediting me with things I did not say!! So tell me how we fix this issue? Specific points!
 
Lefties see guns as the problem. God and Christians see the devil, sin and unbelief as the problem. Removing guns by force from the fingers of patriotic Americans will not miraculously turn savages into saints.

The point is firearms are part of the problem. Its not a matter of political views or parties that determine how this issue should be viewed....40,000 were killed with firearms last year and if you state that guns are not the problem you are in denial of the facts.

I am not a Christian nor do I believe in God thus that view is not even a consideration for me. God, Religion or religious beliefs have nothing to do with firearms or gun control.

So you deny the success of gun control in Australia, Japan, UK, New Zealand, India, Italy etc??? Additionally I have never stated anything relating to "force" that was words you stated.
 
How did the Constitution allow handguns to be banned? Was it ever reviewed by SCOTUS before Heller?

I am unsure why you are so uncertain on this point. An interpretation by the Supreme Court in 2008 suddenly led to the laws of which had been constitutional for 33 years in DC to suddenly become unconstitutional. That is how....


I assume you refer to the 2nd Amendment and reviews on handguns. I am unsure I would have to do some research...I am sure it was discussed and brought up previous to Heller.
 
Back
Top Bottom