From Common Dreams Hillary Clinton and Her Hawks | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community
It seems to me that Leon Panetta and Richard Fontaine from CNAS are spokespersons for the MIC. It pays their salaries in some way, their financial success depends on it.
Ike was so right.
Is it not even slightly possible that there may be another reason of military action, other than the so called MIC and/or some other conspiracy theory?
To some people everything is a conspiracy theory.
Is it not even slightly possible that there may be another reason of military action, other than the so called MIC and/or some other conspiracy theory?
Anything is possible pretty much, yes.
But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.
I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.
In the world wide chess game of freedom loving peoples vs Communism, I think we did have legitimate reason to be there, Vietnam. We had given a pledge to the peoples of the world, Truman Doctrine, to help them resist communism if they wanted the help.Anything is possible pretty much, yes.
But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.
I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.
In the world wide chess game of freedom loving peoples vs Communism, I think we did have legitimate reason to be there, Vietnam. We had given a pledge to the peoples of the world, Truman Doctrine, to help them resist communism if they wanted the help.
Now you can say it is a bit messier than that, you can say we didn't play that move as well as we could have, but we did slow down and then defeat/stop the Soviet Union from further expansion as was the plan under our original, and prescient, Containment Policy.
You mean how well relations have developed after the Soviet collapse? Yes they have.Funny how well relations have developed between us "freedom lovers" and those "freedom hating communists" in Vietnam, eh?
Somehow the world did not end, the dominoes did not fall, and life went on after those freedom hating communists threw out the invading round-eyes, eh?
We defoliated half the country, and poisoned half our troops with the poison, but we love freedom so that makes it all OK. Yes, like the Iraqis, the Vietnamese were far better off after receiving our beneficence. :lol:
You mean how well relations have developed after the Soviet collapse? Yes they have.
And yes, some of those dominoes did fall and to cataclysmic result to those people's involved in that region. Death, reeducation, millions fleeing, many dying to get away from that area we let fall to communism.
Yes, in both situations, like in Germany and Japan after WW2 and Korea, had we stayed it would probably have been better for all involved.
It was with the tremendous help of those freedom hating, and murderous of millions of their own peoples, Soviets.Do you mean to say that it was those freedom-hating Soviets who caused the Vietnamese to resist us and the French?
It was with the tremendous help of those freedom hating, and murderous of millions of their own peoples, Soviets.
You are quite welcome, always willing to help out those willing to open their eyes to truth.Ah, I'm so glad you have explained that to me. :lol:
You are quite welcome, always willing to help out those willing to open their eyes to truth.:2wave: eace
Thank you, sincerely, and your mates for your service. From your words I guess you are tossing away your contribution to assisting the world to remain free. You are welcome to do that, its a free country because you helped keep it that way, and so you are fully able to do so. I, however, consider your contribution to be critical during a particularly perilous period of the planet's history.I was there to personally experience the truth mate, June 1970 thru June 1971.
Anything is possible pretty much, yes.
But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.
I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.
Thank you, sincerely, and your mates for your service. From your words I guess you are tossing away your contribution to assisting the world to remain free. You are welcome to do that, its a free country because you helped keep it that way, and so you are fully able to do so. I, however, consider your contribution to be critical during a particularly perilous period of the planet's history.
You say yes, it's possible, then you follow up with two paragraphs of conspiracy theory nonsense as to why it isn't possible. At least you're consistently inconsistent, except of course for the CT angle.
In all seriousness and from my heart, thank you for your service to this country in Vietnam, and I apologize for the way you guys were treated by the government and the civilian population of this country while you were there as well as when you got back home.
I was treated fine by the government. In those days the GI Bill provided awesome educational benefits, and I personally did quite well with all my civilian flight training. Because of that, I received great benefits that made my career.
But that doesn't make the war itself a good thing. We defoliated a large part of that countryside, and I saw it with my own eyes. In the process we poisoned many of our own. I was lucky and was not effected. Just like today's GWOT, it was a bull**** war. The Pentagon Papers exposed the huge deception that it was, but here you are today romantically praising that deception. Go figure.
And now you want me to believe that we really did a good thing in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya and everywhere else our drones kill innocents at the altar of the GWOT. I luv ya man, but you need to get your rose-colored glasses off.eace
I invite you to post anything I have said where I "romantically praise" the Vietnam war or the war on terror and/or anything that I've stated was good about Libya. As for A-stan and Iraq, I've had just as many bad things to say as good. I see with clear eyes, yet if there's any rose colored haze, it's from the blood sprayed in my own face from myself and others, so it doesn't have the effect you imply.
However, again, I thank you for your service, and apologize for the way you were treated in country and here at home by our government and our citizens.
Apologies, I had confused you with Guaging, I suppose, who had been praising the Vietnam conflict as having saved this country from some vague threat or the other.
Thank you for the kind sentiment. I joined voluntarily and was mistreated by nobody. It was simply an eye-opening experience, as it is for most young men.
Listen, I have studied and taught history... so please don't tell me what you think I know or not. I appreciate your service, I completely disagree with your assessment of the global chess game going on. Are you aware of the Truman Doctrine? Are you familiar with honoring pledges given? Do you know what Containment Policy was and how it worked? It doesn't seem, from you shallow reading of what happened, that you are aware of what was going on at the time and that you are the one being easily led.You are very easily led. Thank you for the kind words and sentiments, but they are entirely misplaced.
The freedom of US citizens were never on the line when we replaced the French in Indochina. Our country was not threatened by Vietnam. All that talk about communism and dominoes were just so much bull****.
The military industrial complex took us there, plain and simple. The government and media do their best to rewrite history, but our actions in Vietnam were immoral and illegal.
From Common Dreams Hillary Clinton and Her Hawks | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community
It seems to me that Leon Panetta and Richard Fontaine from CNAS are spokespersons for the MIC. It pays their salaries in some way, their financial success depends on it.
Ike was so right.
Listen, I have studied and taught history... so please don't tell me what you think I know or not. I appreciate your service, I completely disagree with your assessment of the global chess game going on. Are you aware of the Truman Doctrine? Are you familiar with honoring pledges given? Do you know what Containment Policy was and how it worked? It doesn't seem, from you shallow reading of what happened, that you are aware of what was going on at the time and that you are the one being easily led.
Eisenhower warned of the MIC, but he is also the driver behind the Domino Theory. As already asserted, and you have in no manner or form denied, dominoes did fall, it was a disaster for those folks on a massive scale. No, whoever said we, specifically, were threatened by Vietnam? Yours seems a very simplistic understanding of the communist threat worldwide. Surely you have thought about it more deeply than that. Surely you are aware of the tens of millions of peoples, approaching if not surpassing 100 million, in the last century who lost their lives to communists. To think that is somehow indicative of so much bull**** is bordering on blindness.
I might agree some actions by some individuals in Vietnam may well have been immoral, I would say our leadership was often poor, there being no good resolution to the threat imposed by Communist North to South Vietnam, especially after the history of the Korean War with China also on the North Korean border. China unwilling to allow American influenced governments that close to their own.
I have a healthy fear of the MIC, but to just wantonly blame it for our involvement in Vietnam knowing our policies from the dropping of the Iron Curtain onward... well, its not totally silly, just majorly silly.
First, where are you getting your information, apparently faulty, on any pledges made not to expand eastward NATO under GHWB?Pledges given? Yes, I'm aware of the Truman Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine and a few other "doctrines" here and there. I am also aware that our pledge given regarding eastward expansion of NATO by Bush 41, and I note how we have not honored it. And I observe that as we move our troops into countries bordering Russia, we are saying by implication that WE can have and enforce our Monroe Doctrine, but Russia may not do the same. I guess that's because we are exceptional and special on this planet, a superior citizenship for humans?
Whoever said we were threatened by Vietnam? I'm not sure anybody said those actual words, but I do understand implications, and being a professor, I'm sure you do too. The question might be were you around at that time to receive the implication given by our leaders that communism and Vietnam were threats not only to us, but to world order.
The good humor is that all these years later we are trading with those horrible communists. :lol:
As a history professor, I assume you are aware of the practice of "writing history" in a favorable light, favorable to the person writing the history, and any agenda he may embrace. I hope you're not suggesting humans that groups of humans with special interests don't develop and advance agendas?
It matters not whether I am more perceptive in seeing the influence of the MIC during my life time, or you are less perceptive in that regard, but I assure you Ike was not making things up. In fact from then until now as we start another round of bombing in Libya, the military industrial complex drives and controls US government policy and spending. Vietnam was a fraud, and the entire GWOT is a fraud, of epic proportions.eace
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