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On the Military Industrial Complex

Beaudreaux

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Is it not even slightly possible that there may be another reason of military action, other than the so called MIC and/or some other conspiracy theory?

To some people everything is a conspiracy theory.
 

Thoreau72

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Is it not even slightly possible that there may be another reason of military action, other than the so called MIC and/or some other conspiracy theory?

Anything is possible pretty much, yes.

But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.

I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.
 

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Anything is possible pretty much, yes.

But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.

I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.

T-72, from what I've seen, your mind has never been open. All this conspiracy theory bs is just a different repetition on the same theme.

I know you love dicatators--- especially anti American ones--- but Gaddafi and Assad made their beds with their horrific treatment of their own people. If they don't want to lay in them, well, I guess they should have done a lot of things differently.

The only people who think we're in Afghanistan "under fraud" are whack jobs.
 

Gaugingcatenate

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Anything is possible pretty much, yes.

But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.

I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.
In the world wide chess game of freedom loving peoples vs Communism, I think we did have legitimate reason to be there, Vietnam. We had given a pledge to the peoples of the world, Truman Doctrine, to help them resist communism if they wanted the help.

Now you can say it is a bit messier than that, you can say we didn't play that move as well as we could have, but we did slow down and then defeat/stop the Soviet Union from further expansion as was the plan under our original, and prescient, Containment Policy.
 

Thoreau72

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In the world wide chess game of freedom loving peoples vs Communism, I think we did have legitimate reason to be there, Vietnam. We had given a pledge to the peoples of the world, Truman Doctrine, to help them resist communism if they wanted the help.

Now you can say it is a bit messier than that, you can say we didn't play that move as well as we could have, but we did slow down and then defeat/stop the Soviet Union from further expansion as was the plan under our original, and prescient, Containment Policy.

Funny how well relations have developed between us "freedom lovers" and those "freedom hating communists" in Vietnam, eh? ;)

Somehow the world did not end, the dominoes did not fall, and life went on after those freedom hating communists threw out the invading round-eyes, eh?

We defoliated half the country, and poisoned half our troops with the poison, but we love freedom so that makes it all OK. Yes, like the Iraqis, the Vietnamese were far better off after receiving our beneficence. :lol:
 

Gaugingcatenate

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Funny how well relations have developed between us "freedom lovers" and those "freedom hating communists" in Vietnam, eh? ;)

Somehow the world did not end, the dominoes did not fall, and life went on after those freedom hating communists threw out the invading round-eyes, eh?

We defoliated half the country, and poisoned half our troops with the poison, but we love freedom so that makes it all OK. Yes, like the Iraqis, the Vietnamese were far better off after receiving our beneficence. :lol:
You mean how well relations have developed after the Soviet collapse? Yes they have.

And yes, some of those dominoes did fall and to cataclysmic result to those people's involved in that region. Death, reeducation, millions fleeing, many dying to get away from that area we let fall to communism.

Yes, in both situations, like in Germany and Japan after WW2 and Korea, had we stayed it would probably have been better for all involved.
 

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You mean how well relations have developed after the Soviet collapse? Yes they have.

And yes, some of those dominoes did fall and to cataclysmic result to those people's involved in that region. Death, reeducation, millions fleeing, many dying to get away from that area we let fall to communism.

Yes, in both situations, like in Germany and Japan after WW2 and Korea, had we stayed it would probably have been better for all involved.

Do you mean to say that it was those freedom-hating Soviets who caused the Vietnamese to resist us and the French?
 

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It was with the tremendous help of those freedom hating, and murderous of millions of their own peoples, Soviets.

Ah, I'm so glad you have explained that to me. :lol:
 

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You are quite welcome, always willing to help out those willing to open their eyes to truth. ;) :2wave: :peace

I was there to personally experience the truth mate, June 1970 thru June 1971. ;)
 

Gaugingcatenate

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I was there to personally experience the truth mate, June 1970 thru June 1971. ;)
Thank you, sincerely, and your mates for your service. From your words I guess you are tossing away your contribution to assisting the world to remain free. You are welcome to do that, its a free country because you helped keep it that way, and so you are fully able to do so. I, however, consider your contribution to be critical during a particularly perilous period of the planet's history.
 

Beaudreaux

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Anything is possible pretty much, yes.

But that possibility you mention does not seem to be supported by historical facts. For example, as the Downing Street Memo showed back when, and the Chilcot Enquiry has documented recently, the invasion of Iraq was brought under fraud. So too Afghanistan. We have no legitimate business in Syria killing civilians, yet we're there. Ditto Libya.

I went to Vietnam with an open mind, but it didn't take long in country to realize we had no business there at all. We had no legitimate purpose there, but the MIC did.

You say yes, it's possible, then you follow up with two paragraphs of conspiracy theory nonsense as to why it isn't possible. At least you're consistently inconsistent, except of course for the CT angle.

In all seriousness and from my heart, thank you for your service to this country in Vietnam, and I apologize for the way you guys were treated by the government and the civilian population of this country while you were there as well as when you got back home.
 

Thoreau72

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Thank you, sincerely, and your mates for your service. From your words I guess you are tossing away your contribution to assisting the world to remain free. You are welcome to do that, its a free country because you helped keep it that way, and so you are fully able to do so. I, however, consider your contribution to be critical during a particularly perilous period of the planet's history.

You are very easily led. Thank you for the kind words and sentiments, but they are entirely misplaced.

The freedom of US citizens were never on the line when we replaced the French in Indochina. Our country was not threatened by Vietnam. All that talk about communism and dominoes were just so much bull****.

The military industrial complex took us there, plain and simple. The government and media do their best to rewrite history, but our actions in Vietnam were immoral and illegal.
 

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You say yes, it's possible, then you follow up with two paragraphs of conspiracy theory nonsense as to why it isn't possible. At least you're consistently inconsistent, except of course for the CT angle.

In all seriousness and from my heart, thank you for your service to this country in Vietnam, and I apologize for the way you guys were treated by the government and the civilian population of this country while you were there as well as when you got back home.

I was treated fine by the government. In those days the GI Bill provided awesome educational benefits, and I personally did quite well with all my civilian flight training. Because of that, I received great benefits that made my career.

But that doesn't make the war itself a good thing. We defoliated a large part of that countryside, and I saw it with my own eyes. In the process we poisoned many of our own. I was lucky and was not effected. Just like today's GWOT, it was a bull**** war. The Pentagon Papers exposed the huge deception that it was, but here you are today romantically praising that deception. Go figure.

And now you want me to believe that we really did a good thing in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya and everywhere else our drones kill innocents at the altar of the GWOT. I luv ya man, but you need to get your rose-colored glasses off. :peace
 

Beaudreaux

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I was treated fine by the government. In those days the GI Bill provided awesome educational benefits, and I personally did quite well with all my civilian flight training. Because of that, I received great benefits that made my career.

But that doesn't make the war itself a good thing. We defoliated a large part of that countryside, and I saw it with my own eyes. In the process we poisoned many of our own. I was lucky and was not effected. Just like today's GWOT, it was a bull**** war. The Pentagon Papers exposed the huge deception that it was, but here you are today romantically praising that deception. Go figure.

And now you want me to believe that we really did a good thing in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya and everywhere else our drones kill innocents at the altar of the GWOT. I luv ya man, but you need to get your rose-colored glasses off. :peace

I invite you to post anything I have said where I "romantically praise" the Vietnam war or the war on terror and/or anything that I've stated was good about Libya. As for A-stan and Iraq, I've had just as many bad things to say as good. I see with clear eyes, yet if there's any rose colored haze, it's from the blood sprayed in my own face from myself and others, so it doesn't have the effect you imply.

However, again, I thank you for your service, and apologize for the way you were treated in country and here at home by our government and our citizens.
 

Thoreau72

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I invite you to post anything I have said where I "romantically praise" the Vietnam war or the war on terror and/or anything that I've stated was good about Libya. As for A-stan and Iraq, I've had just as many bad things to say as good. I see with clear eyes, yet if there's any rose colored haze, it's from the blood sprayed in my own face from myself and others, so it doesn't have the effect you imply.

However, again, I thank you for your service, and apologize for the way you were treated in country and here at home by our government and our citizens.

Apologies, I had confused you with Guaging, I suppose, who had been praising the Vietnam conflict as having saved this country from some vague threat or the other.

Thank you for the kind sentiment. I joined voluntarily and was mistreated by nobody. It was simply an eye-opening experience, as it is for most young men.
 

Beaudreaux

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Apologies, I had confused you with Guaging, I suppose, who had been praising the Vietnam conflict as having saved this country from some vague threat or the other.

Thank you for the kind sentiment. I joined voluntarily and was mistreated by nobody. It was simply an eye-opening experience, as it is for most young men.

Accepted and you're welcome
 

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You are very easily led. Thank you for the kind words and sentiments, but they are entirely misplaced.

The freedom of US citizens were never on the line when we replaced the French in Indochina. Our country was not threatened by Vietnam. All that talk about communism and dominoes were just so much bull****.

The military industrial complex took us there, plain and simple. The government and media do their best to rewrite history, but our actions in Vietnam were immoral and illegal.
Listen, I have studied and taught history... so please don't tell me what you think I know or not. I appreciate your service, I completely disagree with your assessment of the global chess game going on. Are you aware of the Truman Doctrine? Are you familiar with honoring pledges given? Do you know what Containment Policy was and how it worked? It doesn't seem, from you shallow reading of what happened, that you are aware of what was going on at the time and that you are the one being easily led.

Eisenhower warned of the MIC, but he is also the driver behind the Domino Theory. As already asserted, and you have in no manner or form denied, dominoes did fall, it was a disaster for those folks on a massive scale. No, whoever said we, specifically, were threatened by Vietnam? Yours seems a very simplistic understanding of the communist threat worldwide. Surely you have thought about it more deeply than that. Surely you are aware of the tens of millions of peoples, approaching if not surpassing 100 million, in the last century who lost their lives to communists. To think that is somehow indicative of so much bull**** is bordering on blindness.

I might agree some actions by some individuals in Vietnam may well have been immoral, I would say our leadership was often poor, there being no good resolution to the threat imposed by Communist North to South Vietnam, especially after the history of the Korean War with China also on the North Korean border. China unwilling to allow American influenced governments that close to their own.

I have a healthy fear of the MIC, but to just wantonly blame it for our involvement in Vietnam knowing our policies from the dropping of the Iron Curtain onward... well, its not totally silly, just majorly silly.
 

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Thoreau72

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Listen, I have studied and taught history... so please don't tell me what you think I know or not. I appreciate your service, I completely disagree with your assessment of the global chess game going on. Are you aware of the Truman Doctrine? Are you familiar with honoring pledges given? Do you know what Containment Policy was and how it worked? It doesn't seem, from you shallow reading of what happened, that you are aware of what was going on at the time and that you are the one being easily led.

Eisenhower warned of the MIC, but he is also the driver behind the Domino Theory. As already asserted, and you have in no manner or form denied, dominoes did fall, it was a disaster for those folks on a massive scale. No, whoever said we, specifically, were threatened by Vietnam? Yours seems a very simplistic understanding of the communist threat worldwide. Surely you have thought about it more deeply than that. Surely you are aware of the tens of millions of peoples, approaching if not surpassing 100 million, in the last century who lost their lives to communists. To think that is somehow indicative of so much bull**** is bordering on blindness.

I might agree some actions by some individuals in Vietnam may well have been immoral, I would say our leadership was often poor, there being no good resolution to the threat imposed by Communist North to South Vietnam, especially after the history of the Korean War with China also on the North Korean border. China unwilling to allow American influenced governments that close to their own.

I have a healthy fear of the MIC, but to just wantonly blame it for our involvement in Vietnam knowing our policies from the dropping of the Iron Curtain onward... well, its not totally silly, just majorly silly.


I have a healthy fear of the MIC, but to just wantonly blame it for our involvement in Vietnam knowing our policies from the dropping of the Iron Curtain onward... well, its not totally silly, just majorly silly.[/QUOTE]

Pledges given? Yes, I'm aware of the Truman Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine and a few other "doctrines" here and there. I am also aware that our pledge given regarding eastward expansion of NATO by Bush 41, and I note how we have not honored it. And I observe that as we move our troops into countries bordering Russia, we are saying by implication that WE can have and enforce our Monroe Doctrine, but Russia may not do the same. I guess that's because we are exceptional and special on this planet, a superior citizenship for humans?

Whoever said we were threatened by Vietnam? I'm not sure anybody said those actual words, but I do understand implications, and being a professor, I'm sure you do too. The question might be were you around at that time to receive the implication given by our leaders that communism and Vietnam were threats not only to us, but to world order.

The good humor is that all these years later we are trading with those horrible communists. :lol:

As a history professor, I assume you are aware of the practice of "writing history" in a favorable light, favorable to the person writing the history, and any agenda he may embrace. I hope you're not suggesting humans that groups of humans with special interests don't develop and advance agendas?

It matters not whether I am more perceptive in seeing the influence of the MIC during my life time, or you are less perceptive in that regard, but I assure you Ike was not making things up. In fact from then until now as we start another round of bombing in Libya, the military industrial complex drives and controls US government policy and spending. Vietnam was a fraud, and the entire GWOT is a fraud, of epic proportions. :peace
 

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Pledges given? Yes, I'm aware of the Truman Doctrine and the Monroe Doctrine and a few other "doctrines" here and there. I am also aware that our pledge given regarding eastward expansion of NATO by Bush 41, and I note how we have not honored it. And I observe that as we move our troops into countries bordering Russia, we are saying by implication that WE can have and enforce our Monroe Doctrine, but Russia may not do the same. I guess that's because we are exceptional and special on this planet, a superior citizenship for humans?

Whoever said we were threatened by Vietnam? I'm not sure anybody said those actual words, but I do understand implications, and being a professor, I'm sure you do too. The question might be were you around at that time to receive the implication given by our leaders that communism and Vietnam were threats not only to us, but to world order.

The good humor is that all these years later we are trading with those horrible communists. :lol:

As a history professor, I assume you are aware of the practice of "writing history" in a favorable light, favorable to the person writing the history, and any agenda he may embrace. I hope you're not suggesting humans that groups of humans with special interests don't develop and advance agendas?

It matters not whether I am more perceptive in seeing the influence of the MIC during my life time, or you are less perceptive in that regard, but I assure you Ike was not making things up. In fact from then until now as we start another round of bombing in Libya, the military industrial complex drives and controls US government policy and spending. Vietnam was a fraud, and the entire GWOT is a fraud, of epic proportions. :peace
First, where are you getting your information, apparently faulty, on any pledges made not to expand eastward NATO under GHWB?
https://www.brookings.edu/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ Brookings is considered, if anything besides nonpartisan, a more liberal leaning think tank. I don't think Gorbachev, who was kinda there, has any particular reason to lie about this, either.

Secondly, using the Monroe Doctrine we did not stop Soviet troops, their navy, intelligence operations or being what amounted to a distant satellite state in Cuba... we did say NO to putting Nukes on Cuba, 90 miles off the coast of the state I was living in at that time.

Yes, I was also around to receive the implications that communism [had a class in high school, Americanism vs Communism, required class at the time] was a threat... and it was. One which we, intelligently , “Contained”. Specifically Greece and Turkey, Korea, Vietnam, all were involved in that containment strategy along with the rest of the world... a strategy that worked. Not flawlessly, but pretty damned well with no more major World Wars, no need to use A bombs to Nukes by either side. And we stopped, for the most part, unbridled communist expansion. Try giving me some major examples of where the communists went where they did not murder, often hideously, major portions of their own populations, usually into the millions, even in small countries like Cambodia [ one of those pesky little dominoes that fell to communism ].

We are no longer dealing with the Soviet threat of worldwide conquest... so the pawn of Vietnam in its gambit to undermine Democracy and Capitalism failed. Cuba isn't a threat any longer, either. But I am guessing you don't understand the implications of the Soviet collapse and the end of the Cold War? Our strategy of Containment worked, capitalism is pulling formerly VERY communistic China more towards our system... we smartly defused the threat worldwide. Why shouldn't we trade with our former enemies if they no longer are part of a global threat?

I do not doubt Ike, he is one of my favorites. He gave both warnings, as mentioned earlier. You believe the one but not the other? I believe both were to be listened to and acted upon. You believe only the one, why? You have yet to prove your point or to disprove my facts stated. I do feel the MIC influences too much, yet I do not let the fear of that blind me to real threats, then or now.

Yes, the US is special. Do you doubt it? Based upon what?
 
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