Oliver Cromwell

[Decypher]

Thanks for the detailed reply. My knowledge of English/Irish history would try to fill the head of a pin. I remember visiting London, years ago, and seeing the statue outside of Westminster Abbey, (I think it was.) Then I ran across the article in the old periodical and it was an interesting read. Cheers!

Cromwell is seen as a hero in Britain, the guys above go into more detail as to his legacy on politics in that country. We could talk all day about the power the Crown had before and after the Magna Carta, the Civil War and Restoration but it’s safe to say that the English King never had as much absolute power as his counterparts in France and Spain.

I’d say that goes back to William the Conqueror, when he gave vast tracts of land as the spoils of war to the guys with him at Hastings. The nobility always had more say in England than the other European kingdoms. This ultimately became the British Parliament, but I think Cromwell was the final death knell for the authority of the crown. 100 years after the restoration, the American revolutionaries were really fighting the Prime Minister, not the King.

 

[Oozlefinch]

100 years after the restoration, the American revolutionaries were really fighting the Prime Minister, not the King.

That is the kind of things that most in the US are completely unaware of. The real enemy was not the King, but Lord North.

He was the Prime Minister, and responsible for both the rising taxes as well as completely ignoring any entreaties from the colonies. The self-rule and local legislatures in the Colonies were disbanded at his order, not the King. King George III was a rather paranoid individual, and Lord North fed into that by convincing him that the rebellion was fostered by "foreign powers" who wanted to take the colonies for themselves (implying Spain and France). And after the King read his "Proclamation of Rebellion", Lord North then expanded on that before Parliament and encouraged the use of military force to take control. Even the use of other nations to assist if needed.

And that was exactly the kind of thing that enraged the UK during the time of Cromwell.

In fact, a lot of historians tend to believe that King George III was largely ignorant of what was actually going on before the war actually broke out. He never even saw the Olive Branch Petition, Lord North refused the envoys from the Colonies from even presenting it to the King. He seemed more offended that they had rebelled and that the war dragged on for so long more than anything else. But the actions that infuriated the Colonists and led to war were not those of the King, but Lord North and Parliament.

 

[eman623]

From what I've read, Charles II was England's most awesomely cool and totally bitchin' king. As long as you didn't, you know, help chop his dad's head off or anything, he was happy to party with you.

 

[Rumpel]

I would be floored if anyone in the republic had a kind word to say about Cromwell.

So would I be.

 

[Rumpel]

The Protestants of Ulster never forgot that victory. 1690 is as important a date to those guys as 1776 is to Americans. They talk about King Billy like he’s alive today.

And again and again.
And then those Orange marches ....

 

[Luce]

His campaign may have wiped out anywhere from one out of ten to up to four out of ten of the population of Ireland. It is hard for any native person to justify a democide matched only by the regimes like those of Pol Pot.

That's weird, given that he only actually had to fight three sieges in two counties.

 

[Rumpel]

Twelfth of July: Thousands take part in Orange Order parades​

 

[Rumpel]

Can we also talk about the troubles in N. Ireland in a thread of its own?

 

[Decypher]

That's weird, given that he only actually had to fight three sieges in two counties.

There was rather more to the Cromwellian campaign than that.

 

[Luce]

There was rather more to the Cromwellian campaign than that.

Cromwellian conquest of Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not really. Drogheda and Wexford got wrecked, but nothing he did was against the rules at the time. If there was a practiceable breach in the wall, you surrendered. Or you didn't, and things went badly for you. Also, no shooting at the enemy after you've surrendered, or - again - bad things happen.

In any case, the campaign cost a grand total of one-tenth of one percent of the population of Ireland, not 40-60% of it, and most of those deaths were from protestants and catholics bushwhacking each other before, during, and after Cromwell's actual campaign.

ETA: From the link

Aston was beaten to death by the Roundheads with his own wooden leg.

Okay, so he was a dick.

But a not 40%+ population die off kinda dick.

 

[Decypher]

Cromwellian conquest of Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not really. Drogheda and Wexford got wrecked, but nothing he did was against the rules at the time. If there was a practiceable breach in the wall, you surrendered. Or you didn't, and things went badly for you. Also, no shooting at the enemy after you've surrendered, or - again - bad things happen.

In any case, the campaign cost a grand total of one-tenth of one percent of the population of Ireland, not 40-60% of it, and most of those deaths were from protestants and catholics bushwhacking each other before, during, and after Cromwell's actual campaign.

ETA: From the link



Okay, so he was a dick.

But a not 40%+ population die off kinda dick.

Agree that the atrocities of Drogheda and Wexford were fairly standard siege warfare at the time. But there were also sieges at Clonmel, Waterford, Limerick and Galway as well as battles in Dublin, Cork and the north. Cromwell has returned to England so wasn't present for all of them but they part of the campaign.

But as you say military deaths weren't that high, they were dwarfed by the deaths cause by famine, disease and forced movement. Cromwell's scorched earth policy cause a devasting famine and his army brough the plague with them. "618,000 deaths from fighting and disease out of a total pre-war population of c. 1.5 million, or 41 per cent of the population. Further confirmation of the above figures can be obtained from The Civil War 1642–1651 by Michael St John Parker." The confiscation of land and the banishment to Connaught cause further death and destruction.

Another 50,000 were transported to Barbados and sold into indentertured servitude which was essentially a death sentence. Another 50,000 soldiers who has survived fled to fight as mercenaries on the continent (ironically many to make life miserable for protestants in France).

Cromwell left Ireland a devasted wasteland.

 

[Luce]

Agree that the atrocities of Drogheda and Wexford were fairly standard siege warfare at the time. But there were also sieges at Clonmel, Waterford, Limerick and Galway as well as battles in Dublin, Cork and the north. Cromwell has returned to England so wasn't present for all of them but they part of the campaign.

But as you say military deaths weren't that high, they were dwarfed by the deaths cause by famine, disease and forced movement. Cromwell's scorched earth policy cause a devasting famine and his army brough the plague with them. "618,000 deaths from fighting and disease out of a total pre-war population of c. 1.5 million, or 41 per cent of the population. Further confirmation of the above figures can be obtained from The Civil War 1642–1651 by Michael St John Parker." The confiscation of land and the banishment to Connaught cause further death and destruction.

Another 50,000 were transported to Barbados and sold into indentertured servitude which was essentially a death sentence. Another 50,000 soldiers who has survived fled to fight as mercenaries on the continent (ironically many to make life miserable for protestants in France).

Cromwell left Ireland a devasted wasteland.

He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.

Contrast that with what was going on in the Germanies at the time, with 1 in every 4 people dying so Von Somewhere could add a curlicue to his list of titles, and so the Hapsburgs wouldn't have a sad.

If you're going to judge Cromwell for that sort of thing, you have to judge everyone everywhere in Europe and associated colonies.

 

[Decypher]

He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.

Contrast that with what was going on in the Germanies at the time, with 1 in every 4 people dying so Von Somewhere could add a curlicue to his list of titles, and so the Hapsburgs wouldn't have a sad.

If you're going to judge Cromwell for that sort of thing, you have to judge everyone everywhere in Europe and associated colonies.

It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.

 

[Luce]

It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.

Um, have you glanced at a map of the 30 years war?

And there, if you were the wrong religion you both got converted AND lost your land and possessions. Starvation, here we come!

80% of the deaths in the 30 years war were from starvation and plague.

Cromwell was pretty small potatoes.

 

[Decypher]

Um, have you glanced at a map of the 30 years war?

And there, if you were the wrong religion you both got converted AND lost your land and possessions. Starvation, here we come!

80% of the deaths in the 30 years war were from starvation and plague.

Cromwell was pretty small potatoes.

Lol, yeah ok that was a bad one.

 

[Felis Leo]

He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.

Contrast that with what was going on in the Germanies at the time, with 1 in every 4 people dying so Von Somewhere could add a curlicue to his list of titles, and so the Hapsburgs wouldn't have a sad.

If you're going to judge Cromwell for that sort of thing, you have to judge everyone everywhere in Europe and associated colonies.

So would you say many of the complaints of the modern Irish about Cromwell’s atrocities should be taken with a pinch of salt like those of the Southerners bemoaning Sherman’s March to the Sea and claiming it was some kind of unprecedented atrocity? Sore Losers’ Club over-exaggeration?

 

[Luce]

So would you say many of the complaints of the modern Irish about Cromwell’s atrocities should be taken with a pinch of salt like those of the Southerners bemoaning Sherman’s March to the Sea? Sore Losers’ Club over exaggeration?

No, their misfortunes were real, but Ireland thrives on ancient grudges and this one is really blown out of proportion.

 

[Rumpel]

It would be difficult to think a bigger villain in Irish history, the name Cromwell is synonymous with English brutality. The Siege of Drogheda is best remembered for the massacre of soldiers and civilians once the town walls were breached but Cromwell and his army committed these atrocities all over the country. “To Hell or to Connaught” was his command to the Irish after he took all the land east of the Shannon. It was there the descendants of the dispossessed planted potatoes in the stony soil and they would bear the brunt of the famine two centuries later.

he was a. bad person

 

[Rumpel]

It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.

very much so!