Okay Christian America, Why is Avarice a Sin?

[Occam's Razor]

av·a·rice   
[av-er-is] Show IPA
–noun
insatiable greed for riches; inordinate, miserly desire to gain and hoard wealth.

I'm not asking whether it should be a sin, I'm asking, what is it about avarice that has made it a mortal sin for far longer than Christianity?

I would think the good Christians of this nation would be more concerned with helping the super rich keep their eternal soul, rather than their money...

... just sayin'....

 

[spud_meister]

Because it's greed at the expense of others, think of Scrooge, he got money, but never spent it, his wealth benefited nobody, that's why it's a sin.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Because it's greed at the expense of others, think of Scrooge, he got money, but never spent it, his wealth benefited nobody, that's why it's a sin.

On the right track...

Wealth, especially commodity based wealth (gold, silver, etc.) is... well.. a commodity. A finite resource. Only so much of it to be had. If it is hoarded, it is no longer in circulation to aid commerce, pay wages, feed families, buy property....

That money is kept out of circulation, often offshore. 400 people hold $2 trillion dollars in wealth. That's as much as the next 150 million people combined. Defenders of this debauchery will say, ya, but it's theirs, they earned it. No. Wrong. The people that worked for that person, who produced the product, created that wealth.

Christian nation my arse!

 

[What if...?]

Yeah, that Bible quote is "The love of money is the root of all evil".

We need a new term for greed, they broke that one on purpose.

I may have to try avarice to get around that "frame".:2wave:

 

[spud_meister]

On the right track...

Wealth, especially commodity based wealth (gold, silver, etc.) is... well.. a commodity. A finite resource. Only so much of it to be had. If it is hoarded, it is no longer in circulation to aid commerce, pay wages, feed families, buy property....

That money is kept out of circulation, often offshore. 400 people hold $2 trillion dollars in wealth. That's as much as the next 150 million people combined. Defenders of this debauchery will say, ya, but it's theirs, they earned it. No. Wrong. The people that worked for that person, who produced the product, created that wealth.

Christian nation my arse!

But these people still drive Ferraris, they pay for their private jet's fuel, they go on expensive holidays; while they do have a ridiculous amount of money, they spend a ridiculous amount of money too, they're pouring money back into the economy, avarice would be, for a slightly hyperbolic example, being a millionaire, but driving a Volvo, renting a 1 bedroom apartment, and eating only tinned spaghetti.

 

[Occam's Razor]

But these people still drive Ferraris, they pay for their private jet's fuel, they go on expensive holidays; while they do have a ridiculous amount of money, they spend a ridiculous amount of money too, they're pouring money back into the economy, avarice would be, for a slightly hyperbolic example, being a millionaire, but driving a Volvo, renting a 1 bedroom apartment, and eating only tinned spaghetti.

No... it's not. Hoarding is only one aspect of avarice, greed itself is the prime component. Honestly, it doesn't matter how much money they spend. Buying one ferrari is not the same as buying ten mid sized sedans from ten different dealers. Don't care how you want to color it, 400 people have managed to hoard $2 trillion out of the economy. That amount rarely goes down, mostly up. So your example is flawed. Sorry.

So again I ask... where are the Christians in this country on this issue?

Too often I see them on the wrong side of this debate... according to their own convictions and the good word.

 

[What if...?]

On the right track...

Wealth, especially commodity based wealth (gold, silver, etc.) is... well.. a commodity. A finite resource. Only so much of it to be had. If it is hoarded, it is no longer in circulation to aid commerce, pay wages, feed families, buy property....

That money is kept out of circulation, often offshore. 400 people hold $2 trillion dollars in wealth. That's as much as the next 150 million people combined. Defenders of this debauchery will say, ya, but it's theirs, they earned it. No. Wrong. The people that worked for that person, who produced the product, created that wealth.

Christian nation my arse!

Commie!

Just kidding, nice to meet you.

I liked the first part, with the numbers, but a lot of people are gonna call you a commie for the second part and try to dismiss on that ground.

So what do you say for the sake of an interesting debate that rightful ownership of the wealth you mention has been debated here endlessly and instead simply examine the issues that devolve from the concentration of wealth you pointed out.

It is a by-product/side-effect of capitalism, and IS NOT discussed here much.

Not trying to hijack your thread, just throwin it out there.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Avarice is one of the seven capital sins. The others are pride, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth. All the sins we commit are said to flow from these seven capital sins.

10
He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.

11
When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good is there to the owners thereof, saving the beholding of them with their eyes?
Ec 5:10,11

9
But they that will be 1rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1 Prov 23:4, Matt 6:19, Luke 12:21, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22, Heb 13:5, Jam 5:2

10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Ti 6:5,10

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:23

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
<< Matthew 18Matthew 19:24

Lk 18:18-30
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' " 20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

Was Jesus a commie?

9 The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10 But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.
James 1:9-11

 

[Occam's Razor]

Commie!

Just kidding, nice to meet you.

I liked the first part, with the numbers, but a lot of people are gonna call you a commie for the second part and try to dismiss on that ground.

So what do you say for the sake of an interesting debate that rightful ownership of the wealth you mention has been debated here endlessly and instead simply examine the issues that devolve from the concentration of wealth you pointed out.

It is a by-product/side-effect of capitalism, and IS NOT discussed here much.

Not trying to hijack your thread, just throwin it out there.

Ya, I'd like to have that discussion... but must take a rain check. Early day tomorrow...

 

[Jetboogieman]

My 2 cents are simply this, may not make sense to some.

Its far easier to fight for principles, then to live up to them.

 

[rocket88]

Was Jesus a commie?

Well, no because atheism is one of the main tenets of political Communism. Jesus clearly was not an atheist.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well, no because atheism is one of the main tenets of political Communism. Jesus clearly was not an atheist.

Nice! Right you are...

So Christ was merely a touchy feely liberal progressive...

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Because it's greed at the expense of others, think of Scrooge, he got money, but never spent it, his wealth benefited nobody, that's why it's a sin.

I figured it would be a sin for the eventual effect of obsession with money, in the end greed, would have on the soul.

 

[What if...?]

Ya, I'd like to have that discussion... but must take a rain check. Early day tomorrow...

Ya, and now I see where you're goin with the thread.

Another time then, nice thread.

 

[cpwill]

av·a·rice   
[av-er-is] Show IPA
–noun
insatiable greed for riches; inordinate, miserly desire to gain and hoard wealth.

I'm not asking whether it should be a sin, I'm asking, what is it about avarice that has made it a mortal sin for far longer than Christianity?

I would think the good Christians of this nation would be more concerned with helping the super rich keep their eternal soul, rather than their money...

... just sayin'....

because it's taking the desire to do well (which is fine), and turning it into your God. it's a form of idol-worship; but it's the worship of wealth. as the Man said, store up your treasures in heaven rather than on earth, for what gain is it if you were to recieve the entire world but lose your soul?

 

[cpwill]

Well, no because atheism is one of the main tenets of political Communism. Jesus clearly was not an atheist.

People always love to say "Jesus was a Communist" because it's shocking and gets attention; but whenever I ask they are never able to demonstrate support for the claim that Jesus argued that the State should own and operate the means of production.


Given that Jesus was the first figure in history to argue instead that the State should be Separate from Religion, I find their claims more on the amusing side - it's kind of like a shorthand for "I don't know anything about the Bible - but am willing to repeat what faux-hippy-wisdom I've heard!"

 

[cpwill]

stolen from Dave Ramsey, who does quite alot of work in this area, as his program is centered largely on churches, but deals with personal debt and finances.

What does the Bible have to say about money? God has given us more than 800 Scriptures about money. Here are a few of the many verses that will help you understand how God views finances:


Matthew 6:24

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."


Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."


Proverbs 22:7

"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."


Romans 13:8

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law."


Proverbs 21:20

"In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has."


Proverbs 21:5

"The plans of the diligent lead surely to plenty, but those of everyone who is hasty, surely to poverty."


Proverbs 13:11

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."



Luke 14:28–30

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying 'This man began to build and was not able to finish'?"


Proverbs 27:23

"Be diligent to know the state of your flocks, and attend to your herds."


Genesis 41:35–36

"And let them gather all the food of those good years that are coming, and store up grain under the authority of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities. Then that food shall be as a reserve for the land for the seven years of famine which shall be in the land of Egypt, that the land may not perish during the famine."


Proverbs 28:20

"A faithful man will abound with blessings, but he who hastens to be rich will not go unpunished."


Psalm 62:10

"...if riches increase, do not set your heart on them."



Matthew 6:21

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


1 Timothy 5:8

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."


2 Thessalonians 3:10

"For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat."


Proverbs 11:1

"Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is His delight."


Proverbs 22:26–27

"Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge, one of those who is surety for debts; if you have nothing with which to pay, why should he take away your bed from under you?"


Psalm 109:11

"Let the creditor seize all that he has, and let strangers plunder his labor."


Proverbs 17:18

"It's stupid to guarantee someone else's loan."


Proverbs 11:15

"He who is surety for a stranger will suffer, but one who hates being surety is secure."


Psalm 37:21

"The wicked borrows and does not repay, but the righteous shows mercy and gives."


Proverbs 6:1–5

"My son, if you become surety for your friend, if you have shaken hands in pledge for a stranger, you are snared by the words of your mouth; you are taken by the words of your mouth. So do this, my son, and deliver yourself; for you have come into the hand of your friend: Go and humble yourself; plead with your friend. Give no sleep to your eyes, nor slumber to your eyelids. Deliver yourself like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter, and like a bird for the hand of the fowler."


Ecclesiastes 11:2

"Give portions to seven, yes to eight, for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land."


Proverbs 13:22

"A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous."


Proverbs 10:22

"The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, and He adds no sorrow with it."


Proverbs 14:29

"He who is impulsive exalts folly."


Proverbs 31:10–11

"Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; so he will have no lack of gain."


Nehemiah 5:3

"There were also some who said, 'We have mortgaged our lands and vineyards and houses, that we might buy grain because of the famine.'"


Proverbs 23:4–5

"Do not overwork to be rich; because of your own understanding, cease! Will you set your eyes on that which is not? For riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away like an eagle toward heaven."


Proverbs 3:27–28

"Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in the power of your hand to do so. Do not say to your neighbor, 'Go, and come back, and tomorrow I will give it.' When you have it with you."


Proverbs 22:1

"A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, loving favor rather than silver and gold."


Ecclesiastes 5:5

"Better not to vow than to vow and not pay."


Matthew 5:40–42

"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."


Philippians 4:19

"And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."


Deuteronomy 26:12

"When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase..."


Genesis 28:22

"And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."


Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."


Ezra 1:4

"...together with a freewill offering for the house of God..."


2 Corinthians 9:7

"...for God loves a cheerful giver."


1 Corinthians 13:3

"If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."


Luke 18:11–12

"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself ... 'I give tithes of all that I possess.'"


Leviticus 27:30

"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord."


Deuteronomy 14:22

"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year."


Nehemiah 10:38

"...bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse."


Malachi 3:10

"'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts, 'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it."

SO, to summarize:

*First and Foremost: you don't own the wealth. God does - you are just holding onto it for a while because it pleases Him that you should allocate it in accordance with His will. Fail to recognize either of those things (the money belongs to God, ergo the money is not God and deserves no worship or special trust), and you are engaging in first theft and second idolatry.

therefore:

1. Don't go into debt, and don't help others go into debt.
2. Tithe 10%.
3. Save against troubled times and a rainy day.
4. Do not get involved in get-rich-quick schemes, but rather work hard and cheerfully.
5. Work hard and save up enough over time to provide for your family, protect them in hard times, give liberally to others, and leave your family better off.

 

[Zyphlin]

Here's the problem.

If you term avarice as a sin by comparing it to hoarding wealth, many of the "wealthy" would not qualify. They significantly spend their wealth and while they do save some, there is difference between saving and hording in my mind. I don't think there's anything in the bible suggesting anyone not living paycheck to paycheck is being sinful.

If you term avarice as a sin by comparing it to greed, then attempting to aim it simply at "the wealthy" is ridiculous as believing the country should continue to go into financial ruin or that "someone else" should have to pay even more than you so you can refrain from giving anymore money and because you don't want to lose the services you recieve to be cut so you don't have to change your lifestyle is also "greed" by definition. One doesn't have to have all the money in the world and be greedy. You can make $300,000 and not be a greedy person and you can be making $30,000 and be exceptionally greedy.

 

[dontworrybehappy]

I think there are extremes of avarice and "non-avarice" behavior.

To save everything, and spend nothing, is greedy. To be cheap is greedy. However, to spend all you have and then wind up in trouble financially and have to borrow or be given money from others is equally wrong.

 

[cpwill]

if you can discipline yourself to tithe 10%, and save 10%, then you (general rule) will be fine.


personally, my wife and I can't wait until we get to the point where we can give away 25% and save 25%. that's gonna be fun (as a former waiter, i can't wait to leave some single mom working the Waffle House a $1,000 tip), though it will probably take a decade or so for us to get there.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Collectively, these posts seem to point to zero resolution...

Yes it's a sin, but a very narrow one that any clever soul can find a loophole in to avoid being cast as a sinner.

So tithe 10% and save 10%... the rest should.... what?

The simple point is this... aside from providing for bad times, family needs, and immediate decendants, the holding of wealth much beyond that is hoarding. Keeping it out of the economy is depriving the many of a little more grease for the wheels of commerce, makes it that much harder for another family to plan for bad times, provide for needs, be charitable, etc.

As pointed out above, in the Christian world, all wealth is God's, we are simply caretakers of it for our brief time here.

This graph would seem to indicate that hoarding is alive and well... yet no single person seems to be guilty of the sin.

Not only does hoarding limit resources among the masses, it brings with it undue power and influence which is often abused. Those abuses are often rooted in other mortal sins. In our current climate, it can arguably be said to subvert the representation of the human citizens of this country.

 

[DarkWizard12]

On the right track...

Wealth, especially commodity based wealth (gold, silver, etc.) is... well.. a commodity. A finite resource. Only so much of it to be had. If it is hoarded, it is no longer in circulation to aid commerce, pay wages, feed families, buy property....

That money is kept out of circulation, often offshore. 400 people hold $2 trillion dollars in wealth. That's as much as the next 150 million people combined. Defenders of this debauchery will say, ya, but it's theirs, they earned it. No. Wrong. The people that worked for that person, who produced the product, created that wealth.

Christian nation my arse!

So the laws only apply to Rich people? There is also "thou shalt not steal". A poor man who steals is worthy of the same punishment as a rich man hoards, as far as G-d is concerned.

2 wrongs do not make a right. Quit spreading your injustice.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Collectively, these posts seem to point to zero resolution...

Yes it's a sin, but a very narrow one that any clever soul can find a loophole in to avoid being cast as a sinner.

So tithe 10% and save 10%... the rest should.... what?

The simple point is this... aside from providing for bad times, family needs, and immediate decendants, the holding of wealth much beyond that is hoarding. Keeping it out of the economy is depriving the many of a little more grease for the wheels of commerce, makes it that much harder for another family to plan for bad times, provide for needs, be charitable, etc.

As pointed out above, in the Christian world, all wealth is God's, we are simply caretakers of it for our brief time here.

This graph would seem to indicate that hoarding is alive and well... yet no single person seems to be guilty of the sin.

Not only does hoarding limit resources among the masses, it brings with it undue power and influence which is often abused. Those abuses are often rooted in other mortal sins. In our current climate, it can arguably be said to subvert the representation of the human citizens of this country.

Of course people are guilty, in fact, ALL of us are guilty for some sin or another. Including you.

just because one is caught on earth, doesn't mean he won't be judged in heaven. You are advocating justice for your benefit, or rather, revenge.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Of course people are guilty, in fact, ALL of us are guilty for some sin or another. Including you.

just because one is caught on earth, doesn't mean he won't be judged in heaven. You are advocating justice for your benefit, or rather, revenge.

LOL.... I'm not advocating any such thing. Merely pointing out the hypocrisy. The right, which is most often in defense of the super wealthy with catchy phrases like "wealth redistribution" while claiming the Christian moral majority and some sort of claim to all things American...

If the right is the seat of Christian morals, family values, etc... why would they defend gross avarice so vehemently?

I personally care nothing about the sins anyone commits, nor their belief in God's judgement. I just think if you are going to be a flag waving Christian American, you should at least try to call out the sinners in your midst and help them find the path, than to defend them on very subjective and shaky grounds.

While there are profound hipocrisies on the left, many of them... this one, to me... is just to hilarious... and sad... to pass up commenting on.

 

[American]

av·a·rice   
[av-er-is] Show IPA
–noun
insatiable greed for riches; inordinate, miserly desire to gain and hoard wealth.

I'm not asking whether it should be a sin, I'm asking, what is it about avarice that has made it a mortal sin for far longer than Christianity?

I would think the good Christians of this nation would be more concerned with helping the super rich keep their eternal soul, rather than their money...

... just sayin'....

Here's your question. So you want a history lesson on 'avarice'? Can't you look that up yourself?

As to your second comment, it's not up to us to force the rich to give up their money. They must do so willingly, because it's what's in their hearts that God sees.