Official Poll: Do we need a VP?

[vasuderatorrent]

Official vote count from the Secretary of the Debate Politics Constitutional Convention on whether we should have a Vice President or not:

Yes (16)
No (12)
invalid votes (3)

 

[paddymcdougall]

Yeah, I wonder if we're ever going to have a conversation outside of the redundant formalities before the end of the year...or by my birthday in April.

anyone who is expecting this process to be quick is going to be grievously disappointed. We aren't gathered in one room where votes can be done quickly. It will be more as if the initial convention was held by postal mail. I know Sangha, Paleocon and VasaudaTorrent will help move the process along as expediently as they can. But there are going to be delays, especially during the holiday season, but even after it.

If we were willing to take more direction from the officers and weren't so gosh-darned independent, it could probably move faster, but I know this crowd... we're going to insist on input at every step!

 

[Gaius46]

anyone who is expecting this process to be quick is going to be grievously disappointed. We aren't gathered in one room where votes can be done quickly. It will be more as if the initial convention was held by postal mail. I know Sangha, Paleocon and VasaudaTorrent will help move the process along as expediently as they can. But there are going to be delays, especially during the holiday season, but even after it.

If we were willing to take more direction from the officers and weren't so gosh-darned independent, it could probably move faster, but I know this crowd... we're going to insist on input at every step!

Agreed. I'm figuring this is going to take a couple of years.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

Yes! That is correct.

If my vote is invalid then so is the unofficial vote count or the poll itself!

 

[vasuderatorrent]

I would disagree. We have too few people involved. I won't speak for Sangha but I have received very little input from the membership.

This means we have to make our best efforts. Please let us know what you believe our next action should be.

Remember: It isn't a problem unless you have a solution.

Welcome to my concern. We have too many involved in this that are far more interested in playing politics for who has what rank over doing anything for the purpose of development of a Constitution.

 

[OrphanSlug]

I would disagree. We have too few people involved. I won't speak for Sangha but I have received very little input from the membership.

This means we have to make our best efforts. Please let us know what you believe our next action should be.

Remember: It isn't a problem unless you have a solution.

Two points.

1. One can identify a problem and offer to the group a means to discuss resolution. It is epic BS to suggest one cannot point out a concern without offering the solution on the spot. And it is immaterial anyway, my solution was obvious. Lets end the political drama and theatrics and get to the business of the project we are interested in here.

2. Brings me to point 2. I will also offer the possibility to you that one reason you have received very little input from the membership is perhaps, just perhaps, the drama of getting everyone into a position of authority has turned people away from the real goal. The participation in designing a new Constitution. That has interest and real debate in front of us. Deciding who writes names on a chalkboard for the teacher and jockeying for position may not be doing everything you think it is. IMO.

 

[sangha]

Two points.

1. One can identify a problem and offer to the group a means to discuss resolution. It is epic BS to suggest one cannot point out a concern without offering the solution on the spot. And it is immaterial anyway, my solution was obvious. Lets end the political drama and theatrics and get to the business of the project we are interested in here.

2. Brings me to point 2. I will also offer the possibility to you that one reason you have received very little input from the membership is perhaps, just perhaps, the drama of getting everyone into a position of authority has turned people away from the real goal. The participation in designing a new Constitution. That has interest and real debate in front of us. Deciding who writes names on a chalkboard for the teacher and jockeying for position may not be doing everything you think it is. IMO.

I agree that there may have been too much attention paid to mechanics and not enough to any substantive political discussion. However, what is past is past. Can't change that, but if you think we should go in a new direction, you should try to encourage people to go in that direction

We have a thread for discussing this:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-constitutional-convention/210546-poll-setting-priorities.html

If you (or I) want this convention to include more substantive discussions, we (you, vasuda, and I) can't do it on our own. Substantive discussions require a number (higher than three) to take part in them. If you have any ideas as to how we spark such discussions and get people interested in participating in them, please post them in the thread I linked to above. I would appreciate hearing any ideas you may have on this matter

 

[US Conservative]

I would disagree. We have too few people involved. I won't speak for Sangha but I have received very little input from the membership.

This means we have to make our best efforts. Please let us know what you believe our next action should be.

Remember: It isn't a problem unless you have a solution.

You are making them less involved by being uninteresting and convoluted. This should have been a spirited brief experiment, it actually sounded like a lot of fun. But its turned into waiting in line at the DMV and lost any spontaneity. How long has this thing taken up till now and we haven't even decided our officers/positions fully yet?

Consider the fleeting nature of message boards. People come here for a period of time, and then go elsewhere. This means the more rules and structure added (and therefore the harder to follow), and the longer the period of time the less likely it is to be a completed and cohesive snapshot in time. At the same time, people rapidly lose interest when they see there are still 5 days left on an unimportant poll before anything interesting happens.

Its a shame to see what this experiment has become up till now, but it still is a learning opportunity.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

You are making them less involved by being uninteresting and convoluted. This should have been a spirited brief experiment, it actually sounded like a lot of fun. But its turned into waiting in line at the DMV and lost any spontaneity. How long has this thing taken up till now and we haven't even decided our officers/positions fully yet?

Consider the fleeting nature of message boards. People come here for a period of time, and then go elsewhere. This means the more rules and structure added (and therefore the harder to follow), and the longer the period of time the less likely it is to be a completed and cohesive snapshot in time. At the same time, people rapidly lose interest when they see there are still 5 days left on an unimportant poll before anything interesting happens.

Its a shame to see what this experiment has become up till now, but it still is a learning opportunity.

Go make it happen. Don't be distracted. Just get to work and get it done.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

It is epic BS to suggest one cannot point out a concern without offering the solution on the spot.

I disagree on philosophical grounds. When a solution is offered that implies that there was a problem that required a solution. If it cannot be fixed it is not a problem. There is a difference between a problem and when it is just the way it is.

When it is a problem then you have to fix it immediately. No time can be spared at all. Otherwise it is just the way it is. The way it is may be bad but you have to learn to deal with it immediately. Either way immediate action is required.

If you have no solution then you must learn to deal with the bad parts immediately. If you have a solution then you must implement that solution immediately.

I stand firmly on my philosophical position: If you do not offer a solution then it isn't a problem. Stop complaining and try to think of a way to deal with it. ~My firm belief

 

[sangha]

You are making them less involved by being uninteresting and convoluted. This should have been a spirited brief experiment, it actually sounded like a lot of fun.

I have to disagree with you there. The nature of the task makes a brief effort insufficient. If this were something that could be done with a brief effort, all that would be required is starting one thread. The fact that so many people have agreed to come together and work to accomplish this task, and have made suggestions concerning how to go about accomplishing it, suggests that we all recognize that a brief effort is not good enough.

However, I do agree that up until now there has been a little too much focus on process and not enough on substance. However, the past is the past. That can't be changed. But where we go from here is up to all of us. In order to get us back on track, I have started a poll on setting priorities which I've noticed you have yet to vote on. You can find it at the link below. Please vote on it and help us refocus on what you think is important

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-constitutional-convention/poll-11570-a.html

And if you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to post them in the thread

 

[US Conservative]

I have to disagree with you there. The nature of the task makes a brief effort insufficient. If this were something that could be done with a brief effort, all that would be required is starting one thread. The fact that so many people have agreed to come together and work to accomplish this task, and have made suggestions concerning how to go about accomplishing it, suggests that we all recognize that a brief effort is not good enough.

However, I do agree that up until now there has been a little too much focus on process and not enough on substance. However, the past is the past. That can't be changed. But where we go from here is up to all of us. In order to get us back on track, I have started a poll on setting priorities which I've noticed you have yet to vote on. You can find it at the link below. Please vote on it and help us refocus on what you think is important

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-constitutional-convention/poll-11570-a.html

And if you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to post them in the thread

The task was intended as a spontaneous and free group coming together to make a constitution, it did not need to be comprehensive, and it did not need endless structure, but as you say thats water over the dam (unless its chased people off).

Ive not voted in that thread because I reject the choices "given" (by whom, I dont know-you?)
And it will stay that way, "other" option or not.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

The task was intended as a spontaneous and free group coming together to make a constitution, it did not need to be comprehensive, and it did not need endless structure, but as you say thats water over the dam (unless its chased people off).

Ive not voted in that thread because I reject the choices "given" (by whom, I dont know-you?)
And it will stay that way, "other" option or not.

It's possible that some of them ideas were from you unless you forgot to message Sangha with your ideas. Oh well. We have to work forward not backwards. What is your ideas? Post them here so that we can all read your ideas. I would love to hear what your plans are. Post them immediately.

 

[US Conservative]

It's possible that some of them ideas were from you unless you forgot to message Sangha with your ideas. Oh well. We have to work forward not backwards. What is your ideas? Post them here so that we can all read your ideas. I would love to hear what your plans are. Post them immediately.

First of all "immediately"? Really? :lol:

Second of all, I already sent you suggestions, that you promptly deleted. Not very inclusive from someone now demanding I do something immediately, is it?

 

[sangha]

First of all "immediately"? Really? :lol:

Second of all, I already sent you suggestions, that you promptly deleted. Not very inclusive from someone now demanding I do something immediately, is it?

If you have ideas, you can post them in the thread. If they get support from others, we will proceed with your suggestions.

It's going to be hard to gain support for your suggestions from others if you don't tell others what those suggestions are.

Post them whenever you want to. Or never. The choice is yours.

But this thread is about the VP.

 

[US Conservative]

If you have ideas, you can post them in the thread. If they get support from others, we will proceed with your suggestions.

It's going to be hard to gain support for your suggestions from others if you don't tell others what those suggestions are.

Post them whenever you want to. Or never. The choice is yours.

But this thread is about the VP.

I dont have a stake in steering the convention. It should be about debate regarding the constitution not the structure of the committee, that said, if I see a problem I reserve the right and duty to point it out. Expect that.

 

[sangha]

I dont have a stake in steering the convention.

It doesn't matter if you have a stake or not; You can't steer this convention. No one can. It's a bunch of people on the internet, all with their own ideas. No one can tell them what to do.

The best any of us can do is put an oar in the water, start paddling, and pray that everyone else hasn't gone to the other side of the boat to paddle in the opposite direction.

It should be about debate regarding the constitution not the structure of the committee,

Thank you for sharing your opinion but this effort will be guided by consensus. It "should be" whatever the membership decides it should be.

that said, if I see a problem I reserve the right and duty to point it out. Expect that.

I not only expect it, I hope you do share your opinions on any matter that concerns the convention. I just ask that you do it in an appropriate place and not derail any threads. Like this one, which asks whether we need a VP. It doesn't ask about what you think about how things have gone so far, or what we should be doing in the future.

If you have any comments relating to whether we need a VP, feel free to post them here. Opinions about where we should go from here should go in the thread I created for that purpose.

 

[US Conservative]

It doesn't matter if you have a stake or not; You can't steer this convention. No one can. It's a bunch of people on the internet, all with their own ideas. No one can tell them what to do.

The best any of us can do is put an oar in the water, start paddling, and pray that everyone else hasn't gone to the other side of the boat to paddle in the opposite direction.



Thank you for sharing your opinion but this effort will be guided by consensus. It "should be" whatever the membership decides it should be.




I not only expect it, I hope you do share your opinions on any matter that concerns the convention. I just ask that you do it in an appropriate place and not derail any threads. Like this one, which asks whether we need a VP. It doesn't ask about what you think about how things have gone so far, or what we should be doing in the future.

If you have any comments relating to whether we need a VP, feel free to post them here. Opinions about where we should go from here should go in the thread I created for that purpose.

The consensus appears to be many people not voting because they are rapidly losing interest. Members have said as much. We need to pick this up fast.

 

[Threegoofs]

This thread is now defunct as the results of the Presidential election have been clarified.

I am now Vice-President.

I don't think a VP is needed, but one thing I'm certain of is no one needs a VP who uses Aaron Burr as his model.

 

[SlevinKelevra]

yes, you can never assume the president (elected) will survive a term in this hyperpartisan environment of anti-americanism.

 

[sangha]

Well, the official count has been announced and the "Ayes" have it. Tomorrow, I will start a thread for nominating candidates for VP.

This thread has run its' course and fulfilled its' purpose

 

[paddymcdougall]

You are making them less involved by being uninteresting and convoluted. This should have been a spirited brief experiment, it actually sounded like a lot of fun. But its turned into waiting in line at the DMV and lost any spontaneity. How long has this thing taken up till now and we haven't even decided our officers/positions fully yet?

Consider the fleeting nature of message boards. People come here for a period of time, and then go elsewhere. This means the more rules and structure added (and therefore the harder to follow), and the longer the period of time the less likely it is to be a completed and cohesive snapshot in time. At the same time, people rapidly lose interest when they see there are still 5 days left on an unimportant poll before anything interesting happens.

Its a shame to see what this experiment has become up till now, but it still is a learning opportunity.

Interesting. In no way did I think this would be a 'brief' experiment. A 'brief' experiment would be taking the existing constitution and voting aye or nay on each of its provisions.

Given the wide variety of opinions on this board - we are much more diverse than the initial white, male property owners who drafted the constitution - and given that we aren't in "real time" face to face mode, I assumed it would take a long time and, ultimately, not succeed, but have been a good learning experience along the way.

Heck, I've learned stuff about the committees used in the original drafting of the constitution that I never knew. A "leftovers" committee? cool, even though it WAS responsible for the electoral college.

 

[vasuderatorrent]

First of all "immediately"? Really? :lol:

Second of all, I already sent you suggestions, that you promptly deleted. Not very inclusive from someone now demanding I do something immediately, is it?

Just do what you can.

 

[Jango]

anyone who is expecting this process to be quick is going to be grievously disappointed. We aren't gathered in one room where votes can be done quickly. It will be more as if the initial convention was held by postal mail. I know Sangha, Paleocon and VasaudaTorrent will help move the process along as expediently as they can. But there are going to be delays, especially during the holiday season, but even after it.

If we were willing to take more direction from the officers and weren't so gosh-darned independent, it could probably move faster, but I know this crowd... we're going to insist on input at every step!

I don't expect it to be 'quick', kind sir, just to be off the ground floor...which is where we've been stuck for a while now hashing out the so-called necessary formalities.