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Obamacare Architect - If You Like Your Doctor, You Can Pay More

You don't get it, do you? I told you, I don't care about other forum members. When you make blanket statements about people being surprised, I expect something about the American public.

You want to get into a pissing contest with other forum members, have at it, but I'm not interested. Give me facts about the American people or don't bother me.
You hit the nail on the head, reinoe reminds me of another forum member who likes to drag what other people in other threads have said into threads they are neither present in or have said a thing about. It is offered as an excuse for going off course and off topic to whine about nebulous other people elsewhere. Apparently so that stereotypes and generalizations can be foisted rather and getting down to specifics staying on the topic he is whining rather hypocritically about just up the scroll.:doh
 
You don't get it, do you? I told you, I don't care about other forum members. When you make blanket statements about people being surprised, I expect something about the American public.

You want to get into a pissing contest with other forum members, have at it, but I'm not interested. Give me facts about the American people or don't bother me.
Then let's get back to square one which you've ignored yet again...

Plans that have higher re-imbursement rates typically have higher premiums and a more expansive network with more providers. Money=access. Do you have a problem with this?

How many times should I ask you this question, or better yet, how long do you plan to ignore it?
 
Then let's get back to square one which you've ignored yet again...

Plans that have higher re-imbursement rates typically have higher premiums and a more expansive network with more providers. Money=access. Do you have a problem with this?

How many times should I ask you this question, or better yet, how long do you plan to ignore it?

I thought I already addressed that. I understand how insurance works and I don't have a problem with it. Okay?

Look, all I have been addressing is the lying and subsequent tap dances by the Obama people. That's it. They made the statement that, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period." That was a lie. I knew it was a lie way back when Obama first said it. Now he and his buddies are bending over backwards, coming up with more and more idiotic spin to minimize their lie. This guy in the OP's article is just the latest...and dumbest. I mean, if you are going to spin, at least spin on a network and on a show that's going to drink your kool-aid. Not on Fox News Sunday and definitely not with Chris Wallace. Heck, he puts REPUBLICAN's feet to the fire.
 
I thought I already addressed that. I understand how insurance works and I don't have a problem with it. Okay?

Look, all I have been addressing is the lying and subsequent tap dances by the Obama people. That's it. They made the statement that, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period." That was a lie. I knew it was a lie way back when Obama first said it. Now he and his buddies are bending over backwards, coming up with more and more idiotic spin to minimize their lie. This guy in the OP's article is just the latest...and dumbest. I mean, if you are going to spin, at least spin on a network and on a show that's going to drink your kool-aid. Not on Fox News Sunday and definitely not with Chris Wallace. Heck, he puts REPUBLICAN's feet to the fire.
Then we're actually in agreement. Obama lied, and this toady isn't doing the administration any favors.;)
 
I thought I already addressed that. I understand how insurance works and I don't have a problem with it. Okay?

Look, all I have been addressing is the lying and subsequent tap dances by the Obama people. That's it. They made the statement that, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period." That was a lie. I knew it was a lie way back when Obama first said it. Now he and his buddies are bending over backwards, coming up with more and more idiotic spin to minimize their lie. This guy in the OP's article is just the latest...and dumbest. I mean, if you are going to spin, at least spin on a network and on a show that's going to drink your kool-aid. Not on Fox News Sunday and definitely not with Chris Wallace. Heck, he puts REPUBLICAN's feet to the fire.
One of the more humorous things I have heard in the wake of Emanuel's latest appearance on Fox News Sunday came today on NPR from Noah Adams. Adams speculated that perhaps the last person the administration needs to be sending around to try to defend or shore up Obamacare is Emanuel. Who comes across as caustic and combative in the best of circumstances. This performance with him trying to dance on the head of a pin was just embarrassing and did the administration no favors at all.
 
Then we're actually in agreement. Obama lied, and this toady isn't doing the administration any favors.;)

LOL!!

Well, GLORY BE!!

You should have just agreed with my first post in this thread...#4. It would have saved you a boatload of off-topic stuff.
 
One of the more humorous things I have heard in the wake of Emanuel's latest appearance on Fox News Sunday came today on NPR from Noah Adams. Adams speculated that perhaps the last person the administration needs to be sending around to try to defend or shore up Obamacare is Emanuel. Who comes across as caustic and combative in the best of circumstances. This performance with him trying to dance on the head of a pin was just embarrassing and did the administration no favors at all.

Yeah...I don't think he'll be their go-to guy from here on out.
 
it was intuitively obvious to a lot of us that the safe auto plans would be junk. there were two options that would have stopped this from happening :

1. medicare for all covers all basic care, and physicians have to accept it, like other first world countries.

this option was off of the table almost from the beginning.

2. a public option would be available to compete with the junk for profit plans.

this was whittled away in a vain attempt to woo those who were against any changes to the failing status quo. once this was off the table, the bill should have been vetoed.


the point? the fault is not on the shoulders of those of us who recognized that our health care system needed serious work. the fault is largely on the shoulders of those who fought any change to the system at every step. you got a for-profit compromise, and you also get to bitch about it and to pretend that everything would have just been hunky dory had we only kept on whistling down the road and acting like nothing was wrong.

we had a chance to make real and positive change to our health care system in 2010, but instead decided to settle for a continuation and amplification of the stupidity. many of us saw this coming, and now it's happening. it's not happening because we did something, though. it's happening because we allowed those who were willfully blind to the issue to steer the debate.
 
it was intuitively obvious to a lot of us that the safe auto plans would be junk. there were two options that would have stopped this from happening :

1. medicare for all covers all basic care, and physicians have to accept it, like other first world countries.

this option was off of the table almost from the beginning.

2. a public option would be available to compete with the junk for profit plans.

this was whittled away in a vain attempt to woo those who were against any changes to the failing status quo. once this was off the table, the bill should have been vetoed.

I would argue that what we're seeing now is what the public option was supposed to inspire: competition in the insurance market that would force private insurers to get serious about cost containment (particularly when it comes to negotiating reimbursements with providers). The robust version of the public option was going to initially reimburse at Medicare + 5% rates. To stay competitive and avoiding ceding too much market share to the public option, private insurers would've been under pressure to constrain ever-rising reimbursement rates to providers.

That was the real promise of the public option concept: giving private insurers incentive and leverage to push back on the provider side to get spiraling prices under control (i.e., what the providers are actually charging). It's still pretty early on but, as you can tell from this spate of threads, that might actually be starting to happen. Insurers are starting to respond to new market pressures--which, sadly, hadn't been there before--and thus are starting to get serious about tackling costs. That was what the public option was for but it seems to be happening anyway.
 
...I'm just curious about your rationale.

I'm not clear on the 'solution' part of your post. But the way I understand it the free choice voucher would enable employers to select plans that discriminate against 'high risk' employees. Enabling them to give these folks the vouchers AND avoid paying the penalty could motivate 'dumping' by the employers as it would reduce their premiums based on 'healthy' employees remaining in the group. The potential is especially acute in the small employer arena as their pool/group is small enough that a couple dozen 'high risk' folks would affect their premiums greatly. Larger employers' groups/pools are big enough that I question any potential advantage they would have doing so, which is also why I question Wyden's suspicions but there could be other issues that I'm unaware of.
 
...Plans that have higher re-imbursement rates typically have higher premiums and a more expansive network with more providers. Money=access...

I'm not sure this is accurate. Based on the research I performed for our personal coverage the three companies available in our area (BCBS, Cigna, United Hc) they offered only two networks, a broad one and a narrow one. Each companies 'broad' one included the same doctors/clinics/hospitals at all the 'metal' levels. The 'narrow' one was the same. Yes there was a higher premium for the 'broad' network within the same 'metal' but as far as I can tell the difference in premium WITHIN THE SAME NETWORK between the metals was deductible, Max, copays and prescription.

This somewhat disagrees with what Emanuel said on Sunday as if 'your doctor' is not in the two networks you cannot keep him. BUT you have the option to pay 'out of network' which is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive...I guess.
 
I would argue that what we're seeing now is what the public option was supposed to inspire: competition in the insurance market that would force private insurers to get serious about cost containment (particularly when it comes to negotiating reimbursements with providers). The robust version of the public option was going to initially reimburse at Medicare + 5% rates. To stay competitive and avoiding ceding too much market share to the public option, private insurers would've been under pressure to constrain ever-rising reimbursement rates to providers.

That was the real promise of the public option concept: giving private insurers incentive and leverage to push back on the provider side to get spiraling prices under control (i.e., what the providers are actually charging). It's still pretty early on but, as you can tell from this spate of threads, that might actually be starting to happen. Insurers are starting to respond to new market pressures--which, sadly, hadn't been there before--and thus are starting to get serious about tackling costs. That was what the public option was for but it seems to be happening anyway.

The problem with your assertion is it assumes the providers will merely comply/accept reduced reimbursements. This is a fallacy evidenced by the never-ending 'doc fix'. One also must question the value if insurance if there are no providers who will accept it.
 
I'm not clear on the 'solution' part of your post. But the way I understand it the free choice voucher would enable employers to select plans that discriminate against 'high risk' employees. Enabling them to give these folks the vouchers AND avoid paying the penalty could motivate 'dumping' by the employers as it would reduce their premiums based on 'healthy' employees remaining in the group. The potential is especially acute in the small employer arena as their pool/group is small enough that a couple dozen 'high risk' folks would affect their premiums greatly. Larger employers' groups/pools are big enough that I question any potential advantage they would have doing so, which is also why I question Wyden's suspicions but there could be other issues that I'm unaware of.

You have the adverse selection argument backwards. For a company plan of a given cost, the premiums will be a larger share of the income of lower wage/income employees, who are likely to be disproportionately younger (and thus healthier) employees. So, the argument goes, the employees more likely to be pushed above the voucher eligibility threshold are the younger, healthier ones, who can then take the employer contribution and depart the group's risk pool to shop in the open market, leaving behind the older, less healthy employees in the company plan.

It's a scenario in which the young-ish invincibles are flocking to the exchanges instead of remaining in the company plan. Of course, what fear of that would really do is add pressure to keep the employee's share of the premium affordable and offer plans at least as attractive as those in the exchanges.

But there's an additional dynamic at work for small employers, since small businesses will be able to use the exchanges to do a free choice voucher-like option for all of their employees by giving them a contribution and letting them shop in the marketplace:

For plan years beginning on or after January 1, 2015, each SHOP would be required to enable an employer to offer employees a choice among all qualified health plans (QHPs) at one level of coverage and would have the flexibility to provide additional methods to offer coverage. . . Following the transition, the Federally-facilitated SHOP will continue to allow small employers to offer a single QHP, but it will add the option of employee choice. Under employee choice, an employer picks a metal level of coverage (bronze, silver, gold or platinum) and defines a contribution towards its employees’ coverage; an employee then will apply that employer contribution toward the premium for the SHOP plan of his/her choice.

The free choice vouchers would've then been an option aimed at those in larger companies' plans or those in a small business where the employer still chooses a company-wide plan instead of allowing employees to shop. Anyway, I won't keep going, other than to say that adding market dynamics to more and more of the health insurance world (particularly to what for decades has been a sector dominated by a sclerotic employer-based system, in which limited choice or choicelessness on the part of the people ultimately buying the product were considered normal) is the future, and I don't see losing the free choice vouchers as particularly helpful for that evolution.

The problem with your assertion is it assumes the providers will merely comply/accept reduced reimbursements. This is a fallacy evidenced by the never-ending 'doc fix'. One also must question the value if insurance if there are no providers who will accept it.

There are larger changes that need to happen in the way insurers and providers each work and how they interact with each other (I imagine we'll be seeing more tiered networks, reference pricing, alternative payment arrangements, etc), and I'm certain there will be some back-and-forth struggles and growing pains as the system sorts itself out into something that works. There aren't any short-term fixes here, this is a process that's already begun but one that's likely to continue for a while. And that means continuing to feel out what can be done with different rates and provider networks and payment models. I have no doubt there will be adjustments from some of the payers and from some of the providers in the second year of the new marketplaces. And the third. And so on.
 
You have the adverse selection argument backwards. ...

Maybe so but:

However, under PPACA, some employers could have incentives to engage in
less positive behaviors, such as by redesigning their health benefits and cost-sharing packages
to encourage less-healthy employees to reject their employer’s coverage and seek a plan on the
exchange. By doing so, employers would be able to maintain a healthier risk pool and thereby
lower their costs
. But such behavior would also result in the exchanges taking on more high-cost
enrollees, which would cause adverse selection and higher premiums for exchange participants.
Employers who do engage in “dumping” sicker employees onto the exchanges would be subject to
penalties if any of those employees are eligible for premium or cost-sharing subsidies. But it is not
clear at this time how much of a disincentive those penalties will be for most employers. Employers’
responses to the new health care marketplace under PPACA will need to be closely monitored to
ensure the long-term viability of the exchanges and the accompanying health insurance reforms.
http://www.acscan.org/pdf/healthcare/implementation/background/OpportunitiesEmployees.pdf

...is one view point that is contrary to yours...but I'm sure you're right.
 
...There are larger changes that need to happen in the way insurers and providers each work and how they interact with each other (I imagine we'll be seeing more tiered networks, reference pricing, alternative payment arrangements, etc), and I'm certain there will be some back-and-forth struggles and growing pains as the system sorts itself out into something that works. There aren't any short-term fixes here, this is a process that's already begun but one that's likely to continue for a while. And that means continuing to feel out what can be done with different rates and provider networks and payment models. I have no doubt there will be adjustments from some of the payers and from some of the providers in the second year of the new marketplaces. And the third. And so on.

Nice optimistically hopeful fluff but you avoided my point. Ultimately the providers are empowered to decide the outcome as they are providing the service. The insurance companies are merely a facilitator. If they can't facilitate an acceptable arrangement with the provider the insured will be helpless.
 
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