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Even if they organize their votes smartly they are still left with a couple of bad candidates to choose from.
That's the point. He tried bipartisanship and it didn't work...
That's the point. He tried bipartisanship and it didn't work...
Translated Obama did not want one Republican idea, it was his way or the highway. And you say he tried bipartisanship, you got to be kidding. He is dictator in chief.
No, he was definitely compromising with the Republicans as well...
It can be equally arguable that he didn't try "bipartisanship", but that he had to take steps to win over the more conservative individuals in his own party and rather than portray it as a failure of his party to get the votes to get through what they wanted they decided to paint it as "bipartisanship". There's no greater argument that the actions that were undertaken to "water down" the health care bill away from what the Democrat Base wanted was done to "reach out to Republicans" then there is to suggest it was to reach out to conservative democrats. On the contrary, considering there was a time period that with Democrats and Democrat leaning Independents, the party had a Super Majority in congress and didn't even NEED to reach out to Republicans for health care.
For us to believe that the bending Obama did on Obamacare was for the benefit of the Republicans...we need to believe they were SO intent on trying to get Republicans to vote with them that they passed on a chance to pass through exactly what they wanted with a super majoirty but not so intent as to actually budge far enough to actually win over any Republicans. That, frankly, doesn't make sense. The far more likely conclussion to come up with is that Obama and the Democratic Party couldn't muster their own forces enough to pass through, even with a super majority, the type of health care reform they really wanted so had to "compromise" to get votes from their own party and pitched the "bipartisan" argument as a means of damage control.
Wow, wonderful job spewing rhetoric without any actual sense of...you know...reality.
The fact that the health care law that was passed was not the type Obama is reasonably believed to actually desire is proof positive he's not "dictator" in chief. This type of hyperbole does nothing but make your arguments look foolish.
Well, the mandate is actually an originally Republican idea and Obama did not get his way since we don't have his original healthcare plan. You're wrong on both counts.
I stated reality.
Bipartisanship is possible in the current day, just not as much as it previously was and especially not as much as it was in the 90's. Why? The best atmosphere for bipartisanship and compromise is a time where a party has enjoyed lengthy control and then has that threatened, as you have one side anxious to try and get ANYTHING done and another side willing to ride the current popular wave a bit until things go back to normal and they take control.
"Washington feels as broken as it did four years ago," Mr Obama said in an interview with CBS television, betraying the fact that Congress is more polarised than ever between rival Republicans and Democrats.
The past three-and-a-half years have been marked by blanket Republican opposition to Democratic initiatives as Mr Obama's opponents adopt a policy that any compromise that helps the president must be snuffed out at all cost.
Democrats, in turn, have refused to budge on protecting large social programs and insist that the wealthiest Americans should pay more tax if the poorest are to lose some of their state benefits.
Having struggled to break out of the stalemate, Mr Obama said the fact that he hadn't "been able to change the atmosphere here in Washington to reflect the decency and common sense of ordinary people" frustrated him most.
Do you honestly think that there was ANY comprehensive health care reform bill that Democrats could have proposed that wouldn't have been met with universal or near-universal condemnation by Republicans?
Wow, wonderful job spewing rhetoric without any actual sense of...you know...reality.
The fact that the health care law that was passed was not the type Obama is reasonably believed to actually desire is proof positive he's not "dictator" in chief. This type of hyperbole does nothing but make your arguments look foolish.
All true.
Dems have compromised many times to keep the federal government working and prevent the U.S. from defaulting on debts.
Dems, Moderates, Independents AND pragmatic Republicans understand that cutting spending is not enough at this point. Taxes must be raised.
Like George H. W. Bush said, who the hell is Grover Nordquist anyway?
That's like saying "I failed to prevent criminals from committing crimes in prison."
You made no point at all..and your post is moot..
Sure, but whatever the conditions, it was an originally Republican idea and from your account, a proposal based on the very compromise that was being sought in this situation. Therefore, Obama took an originally Republican idea - one with a history of being used as a point of compromise by Republicans and proposed his bill with it which directly counters the point that I addressed.To be fair, it was a Republican idea floated at a time when their reasonable expectation of seeing a time where there'd be a legitimate shot at pushing and passing a Republican ideal plan was non-existant and where Democrats controlled the government and as such the Republicans were seeking to put forward a compromies bill that may perhaps have been able to win over Democrats and get a bill passed. It was also a bill and an idea quickly abandoned after it's inception and, in bill form, was one of numerous Republican bills that were put forward. It was also from nearly two decades ago, a time where the reality of politics was far different than it is today.
I agree.Part of it is that the political parties have moved over the past 20 years due to the realities of the political climate. Note, political parties...not ideology. There's no indication what so ever that IDEOLOGICALLY there's much difference between now and then. There is a difference however in how the politics of that ideology are pushed. The reason for this I believe is pretty simple. Prior to 1994, or perhaps more accurately 2000, the general wisdom was such....Democrats were almost always going to have control of the Congress and Republicans would almost never have control of it, with the President flipping around. What this meant was, for 40 to 50 plus years, the Republican reality was that the only way to ever see almost anything they wanted passed was to massively compromise on it. They had to start, from square one most of the time, from a compromised position not an ideological one. On the flip side, for 40 to 50 years, the Democratic reality was one where they could argue from an ideological point at the onset and if it was one of those rare times they didn't have control well then they could just bide their time till they got it back.
In the past 20 years the power in the Senate has shifted more than it has in the 50 before it, and it's changed the policy thinking of both parties. Democrats have begun to move from hard and solid left to solid and moderate left in its policy proposals....Republicans hav begun to move from moderate and solid right to solid and hard right on their policies. Democrats no longer have the unquestionable assurence that they're going to be in control and just can go about their ideas on a purely ideological basis...and Republicans now realize that they have a legitimate shot now to gain control so no longer have to start at a compromise position to hope to actually succeed at anything.
I agree and yet the fact still remains that it was a Republican idea. The political climate is relevant when it comes to determining why Republicans don't accept that proposed compromise today. However, it is not relevant for determining whether or not it was a Republican idea put forth by Obama as a potential compromise. Now one could argue that Obama proposing formerly Republican ideas that current Republicans aren't going to accept is not a legitimate attempt for compromise. However, that argument would be based on the premise that the Republicans would take any compromise with significant benefits for the Democrats, which I think is a false premise, particularly given the idea you've laid out about the shifts that have occurred within the parties over the last 20 years.Your 90's policy is less an indication of what is an acceptable "Conservative" idea and more an example of policy acceptable based on that potential political climate. However, that climate and reality is significantly different then it is now.
I agree with most of that. However, I don't believe that bipartisanship is possible, at least on significant issues. Well, I believe it's possible in the sense that I believe anything is possible, but I don't think the possibility exceeds 1%.Bipartisanship is possible in the current day, just not as much as it previously was and especially not as much as it was in the 90's. Why? The best atmosphere for bipartisanship and compromise is a time where a party has enjoyed lengthy control and then has that threatened, as you have one side anxious to try and get ANYTHING done and another side willing to ride the current popular wave a bit until things go back to normal and they take control.
We disagree here. Perhaps when it become clear that the Republicans weren't interested in the compromises Obama had to offer, his administration focused solely on getting moderate Democrats, but I do believe that he initially attempted bipartisan support because he was naive and in some ways, in love with the idea of becoming the President who would change Washington and unite the country. He didn't do that, unsurprisingly.So it some ways I buy the notion that the Republicans have moved more right and the Democrats more towards center...not ideologically speaking, but practically. And it's something that I think is reasonable and understandable given the significant changes in the way politics and the government have existed for the past 20 years compared to the 50 before it.
The issue with the health care law however was that you had disagreements between your Hard Left, Solid Left, and Moderate Left Democrats in the congress and needed to move more towards the Moderate side to even get anything passed...not to win Republican votes.
Sure. I imagine if a Democratic blue dog co-signed a bill with a Republican that was primarily or at least half filled with ideas in line with the political realities of the current Republican Party and didn't include any significant tax hikes, it'd get support. However, I don't think such a bill would be realistic and in general I don't think there was likely a bill that they could've proposed that would've actually managed to win enough Democrats AND Republicans to get it passed.
So the Democrats tried to shore up their side to get enough votes and the Republicans went hog wild putting up things they knew full well would never pass. I don't really blame either for those actions. There was never an honest desire to be bipartisan, nor do I rightly fault that fact in theory, there was simply an attempt to push politcal spin to provide cover against their own base for having to bend to get those in their own party to join together for enough votes.
Sure, but whatever the conditions, it was an originally Republican idea and from your account, a proposal based on the very compromise that was being sought in this situation. Therefore, Obama took an originally Republican idea - one with a history of being used as a point of compromise by Republicans and proposed his bill with it which directly counters the point that I addressed.
I agree and yet the fact still remains that it was a Republican idea.
However, it is not relevant for determining whether or not it was a Republican idea put forth by Obama as a potential compromise.
Now one could argue that Obama proposing formerly Republican ideas that current Republicans aren't going to accept is not a legitimate attempt for compromise. However, that argument would be based on the premise that the Republicans would take any compromise with significant benefits for the Democrats, which I think is a false premise, particularly given the idea you've laid out about the shifts that have occurred within the parties over the last 20 years.
Perhaps when it become clear that the Republicans weren't interested in the compromises Obama had to offer, his administration focused solely on getting moderate Democrats, but I do believe that he initially attempted bipartisan support because he was naive and in some ways, in love with the idea of becoming the President who would change Washington and unite the country. He didn't do that, unsurprisingly.
Sure I made a point.
Obama isn't the "Dictator-in-Chief". Saying such is ridiculous hyperbole. If he was "Dictator-in-Chief" the health care law would look exactly like the one he wants, which is absolutely not the case.
Which would make sense, if he was tring to work with early 90's Republicans.
The Republican Party, policy ideas, and views have changed...as have Democrats...since the 90's.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with TPD. Obama started with a Republican proposal because he expected it would draw at least *some* Republican support.
I agree that both arguments - that he tried bipartisanship and that he did not - can be defended. However, I do not believe that the latter is accurate given my own perspective on Obama. In order to say that Obama did not attempt partisanship, then one would have to assume that he is a liar. While this assumption is exactly difficult to imagine given that we're talking about a politician, I don't believe it to be true in this case.It can be equally arguable that he didn't try "bipartisanship", but that he had to take steps to win over the more conservative individuals in his own party and rather than portray it as a failure of his party to get the votes to get through what they wanted they decided to paint it as "bipartisanship". There's no greater argument that the actions that were undertaken to "water down" the health care bill away from what the Democrat Base wanted was done to "reach out to Republicans" then there is to suggest it was to reach out to conservative democrats. On the contrary, considering there was a time period that with Democrats and Democrat leaning Independents, the party had a Super Majority in congress and didn't even NEED to reach out to Republicans for health care.
First, I do not believe that Obama's compromising was for the benefit of Republicans. I think it was for his own benefit and perhaps, if he really is/was as honorable as he portrays himself to be, for the benefit of the country.For us to believe that the bending Obama did on Obamacare was for the benefit of the Republicans...we need to believe they were SO intent on trying to get Republicans to vote with them that they passed on a chance to pass through exactly what they wanted with a super majoirty but not so intent as to actually budge far enough to actually win over any Republicans. That, frankly, doesn't make sense.
Obama and his administration were advocating bipartisanship on the campaign trail. It's not something that suddenly came up after negotiations on healthcare began. Therefore, I don't see much of an argument for using bipartisanship as damage control since it wasn't an afterthought, but an idea pressed by them long before the actual election.The far more likely conclussion to come up with is that Obama and the Democratic Party couldn't muster their own forces enough to pass through, even with a super majority, the type of health care reform they really wanted so had to "compromise" to get votes from their own party and pitched the "bipartisan" argument as a means of damage control.
Except that Gingrich was pushing a similar idea as recently as a few years ago, and of course Romney implemented a very similar plan around 2003 -- which received applause from the conservative Heritage Foundation.
He actually did a lot of compromising that pissed much of his constituency off, particularly on healthcare.
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