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NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

Gaius46

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From the NY Times a couple of days ago

I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
All I can say is it's about time.



 
Yep, it's UnConstitutional alright.

But the down side is New Yorkers are now going to be subjected to a higher crime rate.

If it were up to me, and to keep it Constitutional, stop " stop and frisk" but allow New Yorkers to Conceal Carry.

That way their on equal footing with the criminals that chose to break the law.
 
The SCOTUS has upheld these type searches before in TERRY v. OHIO, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). (FindLaw | Cases and Codes)

Ehhh..that case was a bit more nuanced. The case dealt with "unreasonable" but didn't give a blank check to stopping an frisking on a large scale level.
 

Crime rates have been dropping in New York (and the rest of the country) for decades. It's not like crime rates dropped at a faster rate than they dropped pre-stop and frisk.

I also want to point out...I wonder how many individuals walking in certain neighborhoods were put in jail or charged for carrying small amounts of say marijuana while people in other neighborhoods weren't...
 
Ehhh..that case was a bit more nuanced. The case dealt with "unreasonable" but didn't give a blank check to stopping an frisking on a large scale level.

If police are encountering people, they have a right to conduct Terry searches for their own protection. That some do not does not mean that those who do are legally wrong. While I am conflicted on the politics of it, the law is not that nuanced--they can do it.
 

At question is the initial justification for the stop. Not the police' ability to do a protective pat down. Without a reasonable suspicion the stop itself is unconstitutional.
 

As Gaius mentioned...it's about justification for a pat down. Walking down a street doesn't make you a target or reasonable case for a pat down. In the case mentioned the individuals behavior warranted a pat down. They were casing a place and exhibited specific behavior.
 

The Bloomberg administration conveniently forgets this when it points to stop and frisk and the shrinking crime rates in NYC. the city has not put forth one single bit of evidence to prove causation.

4.4 million people have been stopped and frisked since 2002 - almost half a million a year on average. Some 90% were sent on their way. The majority of the rest were typically small time drug busts - and in the case of marijuana (the most typical drug bust) the NYPD brass has specifically ordered patrol officers to stop altogether (that's a topic for another post) and by all accounts the cop on the street has refused to.
 
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At question is the initial justification for the stop. Not the police' ability to do a protective pat down. Without a reasonable suspicion the stop itself is unconstitutional.


So you think that officers on foot have no legal justification to interact with others on the street? That is the only circumstance in which Terry would not allow them to do a cursory pat down. The case isn't about whether they can do it, but whether they can selectively do it to black people as opposed to similarly situated white people in such a manner as that it creates a de facto public policy against black people :2wave:
 


Well, the SCOTUS was wrong on that ruling too. They get it wrong sometimes. Bush v Gore!
 

"Interaction" and "stop" are not the same thing. the police do not have the right to pat you down without stopping you. And to stop you the must have reasonable suspicion.

And the judge found both indirect racial profiling and large scale disregard of the 4th amendment so her decision was not solely about race.
 

The supreme court ruled in the Terry case that a police officer "has reason to believe that he is dealing with an armed and dangerous individuals". That the individual "has commited, is commiting, or is about to commit a crime". That's the reason they are required to do a write up and can will put down "suspect looked over shoulder constantly" "suspect followed person for period of time". T
 
From the NY Times a couple of days ago

I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
All I can say is it's about time.

it'll be constitutional if Scalia et al. get it ...
 
Well, the SCOTUS was wrong on that ruling too. They get it wrong sometimes. Bush v Gore!

wrong does not make it invalid. the law is what it is.
 


There has been a long line of disturbing search and seizure case law since Terry due to the war on drugs not wanting to let any drug dealer get off. If this goes to the SCOTUS, you will see I am right in that the searches will be deemed legal whether I agree with them or not.
 
wrong does not make it invalid. the law is what it is.


Oh sure, I realize that. They gave us Bush, they were wrong, Sandra Day O'Conner has as much as admitted so, but we still had his sorry ass for eight years, lol.
 

I really you're wrong about that. The 4th is verging on becoming a fig leaf of a protection as it is.
 
From the NY Times a couple of days ago

I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
All I can say is it's about time.

Yes, it IS about time. That law was declared unconstitutional because it was racist as hell.
 
From the NY Times a couple of days ago

I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
All I can say is it's about time.
This law is a blatant violation of the 4th amendment. It should have been struck down when it was first created.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
From the NY Times a couple of days ago

I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
All I can say is it's about time.

Yes, it's about time that the rate at which young black men are being murdered picked up again. This will help a great deal. Congratulations.

However, the judge didn't strike down stop and frisk. (Especially since the SCOTUS has upheld the practice.) She just wants to see more white people and little old ladies frisked, I guess.

The evidence that police are frisking people in a "racially discriminatory" manner is that more blacks are stopped, of course. But then more blacks are involved in crime, a fact to which the judge is willfully blind.

I'd say that the blood of young men will be on her hands, but I don't think her ruling will survive appeal.
 
At question is the initial justification for the stop. Not the police' ability to do a protective pat down. Without a reasonable suspicion the stop itself is unconstitutional.
You're so right.

First, there is no stop and frisk "law" per se. Stop and question is a legal procedure, not a law and not even a NYC police. So the whole concept of bringing it before a judge is silly.
If a police officer has reasonable suspicion that someone did, is or will engage in a crime he can stop and question the suspect. If he feels there is a specific threat from a weapon or other concealed hazard, he can pat him down to protect himself. Anything less than that, the police officer is violating the law.
A police officer's right to do this doesn't come from NYC policy, it comes from the Constitution and the NYS Criminal Procedure Law.

So what did the judge's ruling accomplish?
Stated that it's illegal for the police to violate the correct procedure? That was already known.
State that the police can't conduct legal stop-and-question stops? No, the judge can't do that.

So what exactly was the point of all of this?
 

Has there been one shred of evidence presented anywhere pointing to stop and frisk as having played any part in the reduction in crime because I sure as hell haven't seen it.

And even if there is that does not justify the technique which the judge in fact did called Unconstitutional in its implementation in New York.

In one of the greater ironies here police commissioner Ray Kelly is crowing about the fact the
Judge found that 10 of the 19 specific stops she looked at were Constitutional. I guess Mr Kelly doesn't realize that that means that just under half the stops were not constitutional. Extrapolate that out to the 4.5 million stops the police have made and you get millions of 4th amendment violations.

That's why she stated in her opinion that the NYPDs violations of the 4th were widespread. By any measure that is a piss poor record.
 
Has there been one shred of evidence presented anywhere pointing to stop and frisk as having played any part in the reduction in crime because I sure as hell haven't seen it.

Of course it has reduced murders. Why do you want to obfuscate the issue by denying the obvious? Is your ideology that important to you, that you will sacrifice lives to it?

But it's much ado about not much, because this judge will have scorn poured on her head by the appeals court.
 
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