Now is the time to pull out of NATO

[Burning Giraffe]

I have never really understood why the United States should belong to a mutual defense treaty with countries that are entirely incapable of defending us; nor would the vast majority of them really want to defend us. Outside of the United Kingdom and Ireland, how many significant allies do we have in Europe? Maybe the Swiss and the Danes? But neither of them can protect or help defend the United States should we go to war.

We have nothing to gain from an alliance with Europe when there are so many emerging powers in the world and as political power begins to even out as the age of "super powers" comes to an end. In a world without super powers, the United States should choose its friends more strategically. We must ask ourselves, are the Germans, French, Italians, and Spanish friends? No. Do we at least have a large economic interest in these countries? No. Are these nations helpless and in need of US protection? No.

So, what's the point? Russia is no longer a real military threat. Their population is shrinking and they can't afford the military they have. And besides, Americans shouldn't put up with European smugness, arrogance, and self-absorption anymore. They aren't our friends, they aren't even allies. They aren't really anything. So why should we... or why should they, for that matter, want to be in any kind of contractual agreement with us?

 

[Ambracia]

I have never really understood why the United States should belong to a mutual defense treaty with countries that are entirely incapable of defending us; nor would the vast majority of them really want to defend us. Outside of the United Kingdom and Ireland, how many significant allies do we have in Europe? Maybe the Swiss and the Danes? But neither of them can protect or help defend the United States should we go to war.

The reason were in NATO is that protecting the continent from domination by one or a coalition of powers is directly in our strategic interest. Part of our grand strategy is to prevent nations in Eurasia from becoming powerful by conquering their neighbors and if a single power (Russia) dominated Europe it would compromise our own long term security.

We have nothing to gain from an alliance with Europe when there are so many emerging powers in the world and as political power begins to even out as the age of "super powers" comes to an end. In a world without super powers, the United States should choose its friends more strategically. We must ask ourselves, are the Germans, French, Italians, and Spanish friends? No. Do we at least have a large economic interest in these countries? No. Are these nations helpless and in need of US protection? No.

I disagree strongly that we are coming to an end of the age of superpowers. By this you must assume that U.S power is either coming to an end or proportionally shrinking. If the first I disagree but would prefer to have you elaborate before I go on. If the second you have to assume that another superpower(s) is rising to match the U.S. The most commonly listed examples are India and China but both have major structural problems with their economic growth and are unlikely to become superpowers (I'll elaborate later but at the moment I'm working on a larger point). Even if Unipolarity comes to an end the need to build a coalition of allies will grow not decline.

So, what's the point? Russia is no longer a real military threat. Their population is shrinking and they can't afford the military they have. And besides, Americans shouldn't put up with European smugness, arrogance, and self-absorption anymore. They aren't our friends, they aren't even allies. They aren't really anything. So why should we... or why should they, for that matter, want to be in any kind of contractual agreement with us?

Russia is still very much a military threat. It may not be able to match the U.S by any means but it still has the largest population of any nation in Europe, its economy is growing, its defense budgets expanding, its shown an intention to regain its soviet era sphere of influence and NATO without the U.S is unstable. Germany, France and many other of the most powerful members have shown little regard for eastern europe if it means preventing a second cold war.

And lastly we have a love/hate relationship with the Europeans. We can bitch about each other all day long but fact is this country was colonized by Europeans, without Europeans we wouldn't have gained independence and without Europe's support in the cold war we wouldn't be where we are today. And in reverse without Americas revolution the french may never have occured, without U.S intervention in WWs 1 and 2 the European continent would have lost tens of millions more lives, fallen to totalitarianism and could have never recovered and without U.S support in the cold war the entire continent could have fallen to soviet communism. Lastly we share ideals that have spread to every corner of the globe and for that spread to continue we need to work together.

 

[Burning Giraffe]

The reason were in NATO is that protecting the continent from domination by one or a coalition of powers is directly in our strategic interest. Part of our grand strategy is to prevent nations in Eurasia from becoming powerful by conquering their neighbors and if a single power (Russia) dominated Europe it would compromise our own long term security.

Russia can't dominate Europe. It doesn't have the strength. Europe doesn't need our protection, they just want our bases and the revenue that comes from them.

I disagree strongly that we are coming to an end of the age of superpowers. By this you must assume that U.S power is either coming to an end or proportionally shrinking. If the first I disagree but would prefer to have you elaborate before I go on. If the second you have to assume that another superpower(s) is rising to match the U.S. The most commonly listed examples are India and China but both have major structural problems with their economic growth and are unlikely to become superpowers (I'll elaborate later but at the moment I'm working on a larger point). Even if Unipolarity comes to an end the need to build a coalition of allies will grow not decline.

America's power is over. We are no longer taken seriously by our enemies or our so-called friends in Europe. We are a weak, empty culture, much like the European Union. We lack strength of will, we lack strong education and creativity, innovation, motivation, and courage. We're a weak people now. Just like Europe. China. Russia. Japan. Everyone has become weak, except the Islamists, who are gaining in strength and courage. But they can't defeat the modern world's military's.

Russia is still very much a military threat. It may not be able to match the U.S by any means but it still has the largest population of any nation in Europe, its economy is growing, its defense budgets expanding, its shown an intention to regain its soviet era sphere of influence and NATO without the U.S is unstable. Germany, France and many other of the most powerful members have shown little regard for eastern europe if it means preventing a second cold war.

Come on. France and Germany could wipe out the Russians. They just don't want to fit the bill. France and Germany have as many troops and weapons as the Russians. Let them protect Europe. The European people are a proud people. They don't want Americans babysitting them any longer. They don't want us feeling like we have to clean up every mistake they make. They are their own thing now. Let them live in peace, without our meddling.

And lastly we have a love/hate relationship with the Europeans. We can bitch about each other all day long but fact is this country was colonized by Europeans, without Europeans we wouldn't have gained independence and without Europe's support in the cold war we wouldn't be where we are today. And in reverse without Americas revolution the french may never have occured, without U.S intervention in WWs 1 and 2 the European continent would have lost tens of millions more lives, fallen to totalitarianism and could have never recovered and without U.S support in the cold war the entire continent could have fallen to soviet communism. Lastly we share ideals that have spread to every corner of the globe and for that spread to continue we need to work together.

I love European history, I just don't respect Europeans. Nietzsche predicted their fall and humiliation and so it has come about. We aren't decades behind them. We're more lagging a matter of months behind.

 

[Ambracia]

Russia can't dominate Europe. It doesn't have the strength. Europe doesn't need our protection, they just want our bases and the revenue that comes from them.

It does have the strength to bring Eastern Europe back under its control if the rest of Euope is unwilling to assist (Which seems likely considering the political climates of France and Germany) and if that happens it essentially becomes a non communist reincarnation of the Soviet Union.

America's power is over. We are no longer taken seriously by our enemies or our so-called friends in Europe. We are a weak, empty culture, much like the European Union. We lack strength of will, we lack strong education and creativity, innovation, motivation, and courage. We're a weak people now. Just like Europe. China. Russia. Japan. Everyone has become weak, except the Islamists, who are gaining in strength and courage. But they can't defeat the modern world's military's.

You underestimate Americas strength. It has between a fifth and a quarter of global GDP under its belt, as much as the next four strongest economies combined. While I do agree that the rise of corporate culture has had a negative effect on our culture, our culture still permeates every corner of the globe and its still spreading. You can't hide from it. To say the U.S lacks or is losing strength of will is laughable. As of this moment the U.S has been at war for 8 years in a row, nearly the entire 21st century. As for radical islamists we beat them in Iraq, their momentum is slowing in afghanistan and their losing ground in Swat valley as I type. Their struggle in essence is one for traditional values in a world where secular values are surging. Their struggle is doomed to failure because it is against progress and the future of humanity.

Come on. France and Germany could wipe out the Russians. They just don't want to fit the bill. France and Germany have as many troops and weapons as the Russians. Let them protect Europe. The European people are a proud people. They don't want Americans babysitting them any longer. They don't want us feeling like we have to clean up every mistake they make. They are their own thing now. Let them live in peace, without our meddling.

France and Germany of all European nations are the least willing to assist Eastern Europe as shown by their opposition to Georgia and Ukraines NATO membership, their unwillingness to aid Eastern Europe during this recession and their outrage at the missle defense shield in Poland. And on the contrary I'd say the majority of nations in NATO are in NATO to be allied with the U.S not France or Germany.

We aren't decades behind them. We're more lagging a matter of months behind.

I'm confused on what you mean by this on us being behind. Care to elaborate ?

 

[Burning Giraffe]

It does have the strength to bring Eastern Europe back under its control if the rest of Euope is unwilling to assist (Which seems likely considering the political climates of France and Germany) and if that happens it essentially becomes a non communist reincarnation of the Soviet Union.

Maybe. But that shouldn't be our problem. The Europeans should protect their own. We aren't their baby sitters.

You underestimate Americas strength. It has between a fifth and a quarter of global GDP under its belt, as much as the next four strongest economies combined. While I do agree that the rise of corporate culture has had a negative effect on our culture, our culture still permeates every corner of the globe and its still spreading. You can't hide from it. To say the U.S lacks or is losing strength of will is laughable. As of this moment the U.S has been at war for 8 years in a row, nearly the entire 21st century. As for radical islamists we beat them in Iraq, their momentum is slowing in afghanistan and their losing ground in Swat valley as I type. Their struggle in essence is one for traditional values in a world where secular values are surging. Their struggle is doomed to failure because it is against progress and the future of humanity.

The Islamists are gaining ground in Europe, Asia, Africa, and parts of North America. They have a very strong, very aggressive culture that is growing faster than any other culture in the world. They are breeding rapidly and immigrating to industrialized nations in substantial numbers. The Islamist militants aren't going to win many battles, but they don't need to. They just have to keep up the fight. Meanwhile, the Saudis and the Iranians can spread the ideology across the world. In fifty years we'll be waking up to the Islamic Republic of France. That is, unless French people start breading again.

America isn't that strong. We are still the strongest nation, but our people are pretty weak and self-loathing. A nation with a strong exterior but a hollow center won't last very long. There are few commonly shared values in America, few cultural truths. Multiculturalism and Relativism has pretty much destroyed everything "American" about America. So, I'm rather pessimistic about our future.

France and Germany of all European nations are the least willing to assist Eastern Europe as shown by their opposition to Georgia and Ukraines NATO membership, their unwillingness to aid Eastern Europe during this recession and their outrage at the missle defense shield in Poland. And on the contrary I'd say the majority of nations in NATO are in NATO to be allied with the U.S not France or Germany.

Yes, but that isn't the way it should be. Let the Europeans take care of Europe. They don't need us. Let them pressure France and Germany to take more responsibility over their region.

 

[Ambracia]

Maybe. But that shouldn't be our problem. The Europeans should protect their own. We aren't their baby sitters.

Were not their babysitters but we have a vested interest in making sure no nation arises that can match U.S power. The Europeans historically have proven to be pretty incompetent at working together and I wouldn't be surprised that if we left NATO the entire alliance broke down into the every man for himself politics of the past. Russia may or may not fit that bill but its better to be safe and hole it up in its own backyard than wait till its at the German border.

The Islamists are gaining ground in Europe, Asia, Africa, and parts of North America. They have a very strong, very aggressive culture that is growing faster than any other culture in the world. They are breeding rapidly and immigrating to industrialized nations in substantial numbers. The Islamist militants aren't going to win many battles, but they don't need to. They just have to keep up the fight. Meanwhile, the Saudis and the Iranians can spread the ideology across the world. In fifty years we'll be waking up to the Islamic Republic of France. That is, unless French people start breading again.

You confuse a people for an empire. I have muslim friends that act NOTHING like the stereotype. Their Americans first who just happen to be muslims. In France perhaps this is different The recent surge of radical islamic activity can be viewed as a surge ready to encompass the globe. But if you look beneath the lines you can see its more a last ditch attack, like a wounded animal pinned in a corner. Islam itself is changing, the wealthiest nation in the middle east is becoming the most secular, Turkey. The last bastions of radical Islam in the region, Iran in particular, are weakening.

America isn't that strong. We are still the strongest nation, but our people are pretty weak and self-loathing. A nation with a strong exterior but a hollow center won't last very long. There are few commonly shared values in America, few cultural truths. Multiculturalism and Relativism has pretty much destroyed everything "American" about America. So, I'm rather pessimistic about our future.

America has always been multicultural, this isn't something that just happened yesterday. I argue that America is culturally radically successful. The incredibly high level of individuality that would tear other societies to pieces here is celebrated and rather a destructive force is a unifying one. Our peoples pessimism should not be confused for weakness ad a talk with anyone whos ever been in the Armed forces immediately reassures you about their strength of will.

Yes, but that isn't the way it should be. Let the Europeans take care of Europe. They don't need us. Let them pressure France and Germany to take more responsibility over their region.

Just because it isn't the way it should be doesn't mean its going to change.

 

[Burning Giraffe]

Were not their babysitters but we have a vested interest in making sure no nation arises that can match U.S power. The Europeans historically have proven to be pretty incompetent at working together and I wouldn't be surprised that if we left NATO the entire alliance broke down into the every man for himself politics of the past. Russia may or may not fit that bill but its better to be safe and hole it up in its own backyard than wait till its at the German border.

Given the expansion of the European Union, I'd say it is just as likely that the Europeans encroach on Russia as it is Russia encroaching on the Europeans. Russia is in no position to go to war and they are shopping for allies. The Europeans are still distrustful, but I don't understand why. Stalin and FDR were allies in the war against Germany. It was the Soviets that were our ally, not the Germans. I don't see how we have any interest in spending our money on troops in Europe, while the Europeans sink all of their money into infrastructure; meanwhile, we can barely afford our own infrastructure. Why not bring our troops home from Europe, where they aren't really do anything, and station them in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona? We'll save a fortune and we can let the experts protect our border.

You confuse a people for an empire. I have muslim friends that act NOTHING like the stereotype. Their Americans first who just happen to be muslims. In France perhaps this is different The recent surge of radical islamic activity can be viewed as a surge ready to encompass the globe. But if you look beneath the lines you can see its more a last ditch attack, like a wounded animal pinned in a corner. Islam itself is changing, the wealthiest nation in the middle east is becoming the most secular, Turkey. The last bastions of radical Islam in the region, Iran in particular, are weakening.

No, I'm very sorry, but this is simply not an accurate view of Islam. There is no reformation or secularization of the Islamic world. The number of Muslims becoming radicalized is increasing in the Near East, Persia, Europe, and even in North America. I don't think it has as much to do with religion as it does with culture, identity, and purpose.

What does it mean to be an American? What does it mean to be French? These are questions that used to have very specific and definite answers, or at least we thought we knew the answers. Now it means nothing to be an American or to be French. Most Americans don't even identify themselves as Americans, they are Christians, Muslims, Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians, Virginians, Southerners, or Bostonian. People are actively searching for identity and they are finding it in a lot of places. In the United States, boys and girls find identity in pop culture, in relationships and social groups. Often times children today identify more with their peer groups than they do their own family.

Islam provides a strong identity, real purpose, and a globally relevant culture. It answers all of Man's questions about what's wrong with the world and provides an alternative lifestyle. This is increasingly attractive to many people.

America has always been multicultural, this isn't something that just happened yesterday. I argue that America is culturally radically successful. The incredibly high level of individuality that would tear other societies to pieces here is celebrated and rather a destructive force is a unifying one. Our peoples pessimism should not be confused for weakness ad a talk with anyone whos ever been in the Armed forces immediately reassures you about their strength of will.

In my conversations with men and women serving in the Armed Forces, many of them don't believe that they actually serve their country. They feel like a political arm used by politicians and bureaucrats, corporations, and special interests. In a nation where it means nothing to be an American, what does it mean to protect America? It's increasingly difficult to tell friends from foes. We might protect the Saudis this decade, but attack them in the next. It just depends on whose in power and what their political interests are.

Now, I am speaking here of the changes that I've noticed. I know plenty of honorable and proud servicemen, I know plenty of Muslims who are perfectly modern, American, and Democratic. But things are becoming increasingly precarious, here at home, in Europe, and in the Middle East. I see no reason to waste our resources on Europe or to get bogged down in any of the troubles that may spring up there in the future.

 

[Ambracia]

Given the expansion of the European Union, I'd say it is just as likely that the Europeans encroach on Russia as it is Russia encroaching on the Europeans. Russia is in no position to go to war and they are shopping for allies. The Europeans are still distrustful, but I don't understand why. Stalin and FDR were allies in the war against Germany. It was the Soviets that were our ally, not the Germans.

Not by choice more sort of we were both attacked by the same country. The Geography of Russia makes defending it by using natural barriers impossible so historically the Russians have won wars by trading vast amounts of land for time as they wait for the winter to weaken the invaders. NATO is in the Baltics, Poland, Romania and Hungary. Looking at a map makes you quickly realize that St Petersburg and other major Russian cities are very close to NATO's border. This makes Russias defense situation intolerable, the Russians have no choice but to Regain control of Ukraine, Belarus and to try to break NATO so they can regain the baltics.

I don't see how we have any interest in spending our money on troops in Europe, while the Europeans sink all of their money into infrastructure; meanwhile, we can barely afford our own infrastructure. Why not bring our troops home from Europe, where they aren't really do anything, and station them in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona? We'll save a fortune and we can let the experts protect our border.

Just being there often does alot. It forces natins to counter the military threat by raising their own spending. We did it to the soviets until the strain became unbearable.

P.S I'll reply to the rest later.

 

[Burning Giraffe]

Just being there often does alot. It forces natins to counter the military threat by raising their own spending. We did it to the soviets until the strain became unbearable.

Yes, but now it appears we are doing it to ourselves.

 

[Mika-El]

I don't doubt we live in a different era then the cold war. If nothing else the inter-net and increased globalization makes an iron curtain problematic at best.

Some would argue the price the U.S. has to pay to keep its troops in Europe is prohibitive and there is more benefit to Europeans then the U.S..

Whether the U.S. is still needed militarily to check and balance Russia I do not know. Personally I see no difference between Putin and Breshnev with the exception Putin is in great physical shape and far more intelligent then Breshnev or the brute Krushchev.

Anyone who thinks Putin is harmless is dreaming. He is Stalin but with a cool dettached logic and completely controlled ruthlessness.

I really don't know what purpose Nato serves. Other then the Dutch who have always been Canada's most loyal ally never forgetting our fighting in Holland in WW2 and standing side by side with us in Khandahar and the British, no other NATO force has done anything in Afghanistan. Mind you others have token forces but they stay within their compounds. Canada has taken the brunt of deaths and now the Americans will. The Dutch took their share for their size. I just don't see what NATO does for the U.S. anymore other then that. Countries look after their own interests. Its everyone for themselves these days.

 

[Ambracia]

I really don't know what purpose Nato serves. Other then the Dutch who have always been Canada's most loyal ally never forgetting our fighting in Holland in WW2 and standing side by side with us in Khandahar and the British, no other NATO force has done anything in Afghanistan. Mind you others have token forces but they stay within their compounds. Canada has taken the brunt of deaths and now the Americans will.QUOTE]

Not to insult Canadas commitment which is far greater than that of many larger nations like France, but to say Canada has taken the brunt of the deaths and not mentioning the U.S as doing anything in Afghanistan is total BS. We've taken more than six times as many casualties and have nearly ten times as many in the field

 

[Mika-El]

...not mentioning the U.S as doing anything in Afghanistan is total BS. We've taken more than six times as many casualties and have nearly ten times as many in the field

Sorry Ambracia that was not my intent at all. If you notice I said the Americans will now take the brunt of deaths. They and the British as well as Dutch and Canadians and others have already died. I meant no disrespect. That was more of an oversight. Correct me if I am wrong but the deaths in Afghanistan of US troops is already established.

The real point is it is unfortunate if anyone has to die and all I meant was I don't think NATO acted or is acting cohesively in Afghanistan which is why the U.S. is now going to take the full brunt as the British completed their fair share and now Obama is faced with asking Canada and Holland to stay as no one else seems to want to commit to the theatre.

Now the issue of whether NATO can be used as a police force is another issue entirely.

Sorry for that unintended slight.