Notes From The Didache On The Early Christian View Of Abortion

[Lursa]

No one committing the crimes of rape or kidnapping is an innocent person, a baby in the womb is. That's why I've used innocent as a description of human life in the womb but never would I use innocent to describe rapists or kidnappers

"Innocent?" The unborn arent capable of acting or even forming intent...that's not innocence, that's emptiness, a vacuum. It's the same "innocence" that a *couch or a flower have. Empty and meaningless except as an emotionally manipulative talking point. Right? What does it mean?

What's the pregnant woman guilty of? She's innocent too, "real" innocence as she's capable of committing evil or crime...but has not.

(*Cue the wailing, "she compared a baybee to a couch!" )

 

[Ganondagan]

And that's why I asked you if you did. Right?

So then your answer would be, "No, women that dont agree with my religion should not have to conform to my belief". Is this accurate? If not, please explain.

And you and any women that believe as you do get to practice your religious beliefs concerning abortion without any interference, correct? So what's the problem?

Seriously? I haven't said that enough already?

 

[Lursa]

Seriously? I haven't said that enough already?

And I asked you..."so then what's the problem?" You and anyone that believes as you do may practice your beliefs on abortion without interference.

If you dont want to "discuss" the issue on a "discussion forum" why did you post?

"God says so" isnt something to be debated...is it?

 

[Gordy327]

"God says so" isnt something to be debated...is it?

For some, that is a good enough explanation or cop out excuse.

 

[Ganondagan]

"Innocent?" The unborn arent capable of acting or even forming intent...that's not innocence, that's emptiness, a vacuum. It's the same "innocence" that a *couch or a flower have. Empty and meaningless except as an emotionally manipulative talking point. Right? What does it mean?

What's the pregnant woman guilty of? She's innocent too, "real" innocence as she's capable of committing evil or crime...but has not.

(*Cue the wailing, "she compared a baybee to a couch!" )

We are born innocent.

And I asked you..."so then what's the problem?" You and anyone that believes as you do may practice your beliefs on abortion without interference.

If you dont want to "discuss" the issue on a "discussion forum" why did you post?

"God says so" isnt something to be debated...is it?

People...well, normal people...make decisions not only what is legal but what is right, what is moral. That's one thing that is wrong with our country, for decades we've been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse.

 

[Gordy327]

We are born innocent.

Not according to some denominations and the concept of "original sin."

People...well, normal people...make decisions not only what is legal but what is right, what is moral. That's one thing that is wrong with our country, for decades we've been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse.

What's actually wrong is that people are irrational and make decisions more on emotion or belief rather than logic or reason.

 

[Lursa]

For some, that is a good enough explanation or cop out excuse.

It's fine for them. Not sure why they think there's anything to debate there. Obviously, millions of people dont accept that.

 

[Lursa]

We are born innocent.

So then the unborn isnt. It's empty, no more or less "innocent" than a couch or a flower. Thank you.

There is no value in that emptiness that I am aware of.

People...well, normal people...make decisions not only what is legal but what is right, what is moral. That's one thing that is wrong with our country, for decades we've been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse.

You havent proven abortion is immoral...remember? All you have is "God said so." Right?

 

[Gordy327]

It's fine for them. Not sure why they think there's anything to debate there. Obviously, millions of people dont accept that.

It seems more like a means or excuse to avoid a debate.

 

[Lursa]

It seems more like a means or excuse to avoid a debate.

Well I think many start out thinking that is debate...and then discover that it's not. I had to remind Gandogan a few times that a statement or belief isnt an argument and when it's a rigid belief like that, of course to them it's not debatable. So not sure what they expect.

 

[Ganondagan]

So then the unborn isnt. It's empty, no more or less "innocent" than a couch or a flower. Thank you.

There is no value in that emptiness that I am aware of.



You havent proven abortion is immoral...remember? All you have is "God said so." Right?

There is no sense communicating with you further. It seems you can not or will not make any effort to understand my moral and philosophical positions.

 

[Gordy327]

There is no sense communicating with you further. It seems you can not or will not make any effort to understand my moral and philosophical positions.

You failed to explain your position beyond "abortion is immoral." That's simply your own belief, but no substance.

 

[Gordy327]

Well I think many start out thinking that is debate...and then discover that it's not. I had to remind Gandogan a few times that a statement or belief isnt an argument and when it's a rigid belief like that, of course to them it's not debatable. So not sure what they expect.

Indeed. And when they cannot explain their assertion or position, they complain that others refuse to understand. How can there be understanding when there is no explanation provided to be understood?

 

[Lursa]

There is no sense communicating with you further. It seems you can not or will not make any effort to understand my moral and philosophical positions.

You have not articulated any moral argument. You seem to think I should accept an empty meaningless convenient definition of "innocence" wh ich then devalues it for all those people who fulfill it.

Aside from that...what is your argument? Morally, all you have produced is "Because God said so." That is not an argument. I OTOH, did provide a fairly detailed moral arguement...actually there were a few in there...and I dont remember you countering them or addressing them directly.

I "understand" your position. You clearly stated it. That doesnt mean it's debatable...you refuse to debate it...you only state it.

I'm a practicing Christian. IMO no one "likes" abortion but with compassion and God's Guidance, I understand that He values women more than the unborn and believes in our ability to make the best decisions for our lives and that of our families and those that depend on us, and those to whom we have obligations. You havent articulated a thing except a made-up, empty usage of "innocence."

 

[choiceone]

Oh, I disagree. At the instant of conception a unique individual human life is created.

And if you think so, then you grow it. You don't get to use another person's body to grow it without that person's consent.

 

[choiceone]

We are born innocent.

Tell it to a victim who has been raped with an embryo/fetus for nine months and injured in childbirth.

And in Christianity, why do you think people are baptised when christened, as they are in most sects? If you are not made by God, you have to have Jesus Christ's father as God by adoption. That's because you're NOT innocent. The notion that it's appropriate for kids to think they're wonderful and all the faults belong to mommy is truly a sick philosophy.

People...well, normal people...make decisions not only what is legal but what is right, what is moral. That's one thing that is wrong with our country, for decades we've been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse.

We've always been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse, because, at any given time, there have always been some people who have been engaged in immoral and degenerate behavior. The only reason you don't like our country today is because a lot of people think your behavior is immoral while you think their behavior is. That's why we're supposed to be true to a system that allows for toleration of differences in religion and philosophy.

 

[Lursa]

And if you think so, then you grow it. You don't get to use another person's body to grow it without that person's consent.

LOL succinct.

 

[weaver2]

There is no sense communicating with you further. It seems you can not or will not make any effort to understand my moral and philosophical positions.

Oh sweetie we understand every one of your deplorable morals and your philosophical position involves your head in a very dark place.

 

[VySky]

"Innocent?" The unborn arent capable of acting or even forming intent...that's not innocence, that's emptiness, a vacuum. It's the same "innocence" that a *couch or a flower have.

Non-sequtur

A coach of flower are not participants in the the evolution of humanity.

 

[Ganondagan]

Tell it to a victim who has been raped with an embryo/fetus for nine months and injured in childbirth.

And in Christianity, why do you think people are baptised when christened, as they are in most sects? If you are not made by God, you have to have Jesus Christ's father as God by adoption. That's because you're NOT innocent. The notion that it's appropriate for kids to think they're wonderful and all the faults belong to mommy is truly a sick philosophy.

We've always been experiencing a moral and cultural collapse, because, at any given time, there have always been some people who have been engaged in immoral and degenerate behavior. The only reason you don't like our country today is because a lot of people think your behavior is immoral while you think their behavior is. That's why we're supposed to be true to a system that allows for toleration of differences in religion and philosophy.

When have I ever said otherwise? It is you who can't stand that other people have different opinions, it's obvious in this very post you've just made.

 

[Ganondagan]

Oh sweetie we understand every one of your deplorable morals and your philosophical position involves your head in a very dark place.

No, you don't. My question is are you just unwilling to understand or are you incapable of understanding.

 

[Lursa]

Non-sequtur

A coach of flower are not participants in the the evolution of humanity.

As usual, you cant even understand an analogy. Altho if I do use 'your interpretation,' it implies that the unborn, "also empty and a vacuum"...are NOT participants in the evolution of humanity. That was the common element...I just connected them for you again...and I'll accept your conclusion.

 

[Lursa]

It's your OP and you have abandoned any attempts to actually discuss it. You seem to just come in and cherry pick...and still make no arguments.

It is murder. I thought I made that clear.

Your OP wasnt about murder...why are you still discussing it? How about focusing on what you have "claimed" it's about...if it's wrong.

My topic stands as to why abortion is wrong.

What if people that dont believe in your Bible...or for their personal reasons...also dont believe it's murder or wrong? Here it is again:

If they dont think it's wrong, why should they be concerned either way? There is a much safer medical procedure that woman can have that enables them to keep working, continuing their education, not being sick and in pain, not requiring them to go on public assistance to pay the rent or feed their families, risking their lives over 9 months, etc.

I'm directly addressing what you stated. Can you debate it or not?

 

[Lursa]

No, you don't. My question is are you just unwilling to understand or are you incapable of understanding.

The same can be said for your posts...except you dont explain/argue your position. You just make a statement but that statement completely leaves the woman's life out of it. It disregards her as an individual with her own moral agency, future, self-determination. It reduces her to merely a uterus and as long as she has a heartbeat, she must do as (you believe) God demands.

That's not remotely a Christian perspective at all. It's disrespectful, lacking in compassion, lacking in love for fellow man, lacking in social responsibility, etc.

Why do you place all that the unborn may be ahead of all that the woman is?

The woman's life has meaning to her loved ones and friends and community, contributing to society. None of that applies to the unborn. Do you believe her loved ones love her unborn more than her? That that unborn is of more value to her friends and community? It seems to me...depending on your answer...the only one doing that is you.

 

[choiceone]

When have I ever said otherwise? It is you who can't stand that other people have different opinions, it's obvious in this very post you've just made.

Not at all. You have every right to an alternative opinion. What you don't have is the right to impose your opinion in law. The idea is this. Some people do believe that a "conception" is a person. Some others believe that an embryo is a person. Still others believe that a pre-viable fetus is a person. And still others believe that a viable fetus is a person. But everyone believes that a newborn is a person.

We know that, at the time of the founding of the US, it was not a widely held belief that a fetus was a person because, in the one comprehensive work on English law widely influential in America, that of Blackstone, induced abortion was definitely not murder, and that means a fetus was not considered a person.

There is evidence, moreover, that the use of herbs to restore menstruation when it was "blocked" was widespread and the remedy was even included in a handy pamphlet for do it yourself health care published as part of Ben Franklin's work on do it yourself math.

There is not one piece of evidence that the founders or, indeed, the Constitution or its federal court applications ever recognized a fetus as a person. That was restricted to those born alive.

Hence, the appropriate legal definition of person in the US is restricted to those born alive. If there are individuals who want to believe otherwise, that's their business. But they have no warrant to impose that belief on others.

Hence, in this country, it's appropriate to let people believe what they want about this issue, but it isn't appropriate for them to impose any definition that would restrict abortion by virtue of that belief.
That is my understanding of the meaning of tolerance - believe what you want but the law imposes the one definition of person on which we universally agree.

The notion that legislatures of states have a right to claim that abortion is murder in light of existing Constitutional law is not correct. And what I can't stand is someone trying to impose it in law or even in Biblical morality, given the fact that the Bible admits of more than one interpretation on this issue.