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Noam Chomsky responds to a caller's request for his thoughts on socialism, during a 2003 interview by Brian Lamb, for C-SPAN's "In Depth" program. He describes how socialism was equated with the Leninist model of the Soviet Union by both the USA and its allies on the one hand, and the USSR and its allies on the other.
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".I agree Chomsky is a great thinker and a brilliant man. I agree with most of his basic ideas. That being said, he is idealistic, and he fails to apply human nature into is ideas, and understand that they are not workable in the real world. The world as I would like to see it, and the world as it really exists, taking into account basic human urges and psyches, are incompatible.
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers.
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers.
Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.
So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers. Socialism posits, and in fact requires, that we can rise above being afraid of one another, and work together.
Libertarians often seem to take the position that this default position of selfishness is a given, without realizing what kind of a miserable world we would live in if it were true. They fight endlessly for the notion that helping others must be voluntary, without understanding that the right they are fighting for is the right to not help others.
Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.
I
The extension of social Darwinism that is used to justify this massive disparity, that some people are just naturally more apt to succeed and everyone else is a failure... that sounds a lot like the invocation of divine right to me.
I guess that seems to be the underlying difference between libertarianism and socialism. Libertarianism is built on the idea that people are inherently bad and that prosperity only comes from winners defeating losers. Socialism posits, and in fact requires, that we can rise above being afraid of one another, and work together. Libertarians often seem to take the position that this default position of selfishness is a given, without realizing what kind of a miserable world we would live in if it were true. They fight endlessly for the notion that helping others must be voluntary, without understanding that the right they are fighting for is the right to not help others.
Human beings are not selfish, terrified, petty little creatures. We are so much more. Our greatest accomplishments come not from fear, or self-interest, but from love.
Noam sums it up pretty well. He talks about business feudalism, which is exactly how it works. A wealthy owner now is just like a duke or an earl was in the dark ages. And the rest of us are consigned to a state of serfdom, toiling our lives away, receiving a tiny portion of the benefits of our labor. Breaking away from monarchy and aristocracy took government away from that system, but in the last two centuries, we replaced it with business instead. Socialism is nothing more than applying the democratic principals that made the United States stand out in the world to the sphere of business. Our collective production should benefit us all, not just the parasites (to take a term from TD and apply it in a way that's accurate) whose only contribution is to sign their names to dotted lines and trade pieces of the pie back and forth.
A representative government, by, for, and of the people took power from the few and entrusted it in the hands of the many, to work for the benefit of all. Representative business should do the same. Anyone can see the astounding ways that wealth is used to circumvent the democratic process. Rich companies and the wealthy elite who own them hire legions of lobbyists and lawyers, and control who does or does not get elected. Their wealth buys up the democratic process. By not taking the reins of business from the few and gearing it towards the benefit of all, we are giving up the very core of American ideals and allowing ourselves to slip back into feudalism. The extension of social Darwinism that is used to justify this massive disparity, that some people are just naturally more apt to succeed and everyone else is a failure... that sounds a lot like the invocation of divine right to me.
Libertarianism is simply the philosophy that it is wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property. OMG leaving one's fellow man in peace! Oh, the horror!So you advocate libertarianism, i.e. the caricature extreme of leaving people, especially employers, to their "basic urges and psyches".
Libertarianism is simply the philosophy that it is wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property. OMG leaving one's fellow man in peace! Oh, the horror!
But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view? You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.
The thing about bees, is that yes, their only impulse is the survival of the hive. What most people don't know, though, is that bees kill off any bee which doesn't contribute to the survival of the hive. If a bee isn't pulling its share of the load, he is killed within the hive, or dragged out and not allowed to re-enter.
So there's no such thing as bee welfare then.... wow.
It is an ethical axiom. It can’t be proven, nor can it be proven to be better or worse than other ethical axioms. One either agrees that it is wrong to initiate force against others, or one does not.But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view?
Yes, some people think it’s immoral to initiate force against others, while some people think this is ok. It’s simply a matter of having different sets of fundamental moral principles.You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.
I am not a consequentialist. I don’t argue that any particular morality isn’t “true” based on its economic effects. If something is ethically wrong, it’s wrong. Arguing that any particular morality could lead to a slippery utilitarian slope. Why not kill the elderly or disabled? It would certainly be economically cheaper than keeping them alive.So rather than making moral arguments that you can't "win", just make the effort to learn the economic arguments. Don't say it's "wrong to initiate force or fraud against one's neighbor or his property"....instead point out why it's economically advantageous to allow people to determine the best uses of their limited time/money. If you can't explain it...then don't complain when people fail to see the advantages of freedom. If they can't see the advantages of freedom then it's because you're not showing it to them.
So you agree that the government should take as much of your money as is necessary to keep the elderly or disabled alive for as long as possible?I am not a consequentialist. I don’t argue that any particular morality isn’t “true” based on its economic effects. If something is ethically wrong, it’s wrong. Arguing that any particular morality could lead to a slippery utilitarian slope. Why not kill the elderly or disabled? It would certainly be economically cheaper than keeping them alive.
Holy crap that's quite a leap. I say that it is wrong to kill the elderly and disabled, so you infer that I think that people should take other's money to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible??!!So you agree that the government should take as much of your money as is necessary to keep the elderly or disabled alive for as long as possible?
Well...you're the one that started leaping so I thought we were playing leap frog. You should join the Ron Paul Forums so you can read this thread...Where do Ron Paul's Ideas Come From. Where I linked you to is the start of a good discussion on the opportunity cost concept...it should help you better understand consequentialist arguments for liberty. Plus...you'll fit right in there. There's a ton of anarcho-capitalists. Maybe you can encourage some of them to participate here as well. The more the merrier.Holy crap that's quite a leap. I say that it is wrong to kill the elderly and disabled, so you infer that I think that people should take other's money to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible??!!
To answer your question, no, I don't think that money should be forcibly taken from people in order to keep the elderly and disabled alive as long as possible. Forcibly taking the property of others is wrong, and I will never advocate doing so.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?
How did I start leaping? I was simply stating why I disagree with utilitarian arguments. Killing the elderly might very well be the economically sensible thing to do, but to most people, the utilitarian argument is completely outweighed by the deontological argument that murder is wrong. It wasn't a leap. Merely an example.Well...you're the one that started leaping so I thought we were playing leap frog.
That's not a leap? It's less than a half step away from saying...well...it might be the economically sensible thing for me to stop eating. I could sure save a few bucks that way.How did I start leaping? I was simply stating why I disagree with utilitarian arguments. Killing the elderly might very well be the economically sensible thing to do, but to most people, the utilitarian argument is completely outweighed by the deontological argument that murder is wrong. It wasn't a leap. Merely an example.
But what makes your moral view "better" than somebody else's moral view? You're going to say that theft is immoral....and then the opposition is going to say that it's immoral not to contribute to the common good. Your focus is on protecting the bee and their focus is on protecting the hive. They see libertarians as bees that do not want to protect the hive. In their mind, the existence of people that don't want to pay taxes justifies forcing people to pay taxes.
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If they can't see the advantages of freedom then it's because you're not showing it to them.
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