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No unborn human needs or wants legal rights

Wrong.

Can a brain dead person breathe?
When a person is brain dead, their brain cannot control any of these things. A brain-dead person cannot breathe on their own. They will never be able to wake up or be aware of what is going on around them. Sometimes, brain-dead people are kept alive with special machines and medication


They cannot breathe without a ventilator and their heart can't beat for long without that oxygen either. They also cannot maintain their own body temperature naturally.

Fetuses can do all of those things naturally -- they aren't brain dead.

To clarify I am separating persistent vegetative state from brain debate. It might be easier to frame that the fetus has a brain similar to someone in a PVS....and we kill those people all the time
 
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To clarify I am separating persistent vegetative state from brain debate. It might be easier to frame that the fetus has a brain similar to someone in a PVS....and we kill those people all the time

You just realized you were wrong the whole time, huh? :)
 
So..... all fetuses need unnatural means to live? Are you sure about that?

What does unatural have to do with this?


The argument is brain function
 
Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants
A fetus has the same eeg as a brain dead patient until well after 20 weeks. They are brain dead


This is biologically asinine.


Actually it is not biologically asinine. The neural connections simply have not developed. No connections = no brain waves = an eeg similar to brain dead.


Abstract
Human brain development is a protracted process that begins in the third gestational week (GW) with the differentiation of the neural progenitor cells and extends at least through late adolescence, arguably throughout the lifespan. The processes that contribute to brain development range from the molecular events of gene expression to environmental input. Critically, these very different levels and kinds of processes interact to support the ongoing series of events that define brain development. Both gene expression and environmental input are essential for normal brain development, and disruption of either can fundamentally alter neural outcomes. But neither genes nor input is prescriptive or determinative of outcome. Rather brain development is aptly characterized as a complex series of dynamic and adaptive processes that operate throughout the course of development to promote the emergence and differentiation of new neural structures and functions. These processes operate within highly constrained and genetically organized, but constantly changing contexts that, over time, support the emergence of the complex and dynamic structure of the human brain (Waddington 1939; Morange 2001; Stiles 2008).
This paper will review some of the major events that contribute to the development of the human brain from its early embryonic state through adolescence.

Two of the most important pathways in the brain are the ones that transmit sensorimotor information, the thalamocortical (TC) and corticothalamic (CT) pathways. The TC relays sensory and motor information from the receptors in the retina, cochlea, muscle or skin to the sensorimotor regions of the neocortex via the major subcortical sensorimotor relay, the thalamus. The CT pathway completes the feedback loop by transmitting information from cortex back to the thalamus. These essential pathways begin to form in the later part of the second trimester in humans, and are complete by GW 26 (Kostovic and Jovanov-Milosevic 2006). The cells of the transient subplate layer of the developing brain (see Fig.*9b) play an essential role in establishing these pathways. When TC axons arrive at the developing cortex during GW22 they do not immediately make connections with neurons in the primary input layer of cortex (layer 4). Rather, they initially make connections with the neurons of the subplate layer. The TC-subplate connections last for approximately 4*weeks, during which time the subplate neurons make connections with neurons in cortical layer 4. The subplate neurons appear to provide instructive input to the TC neurons during this period. In the absence of subplate neuron signaling, normal patterns of connectivity between TC axons and layer 4 cortical neurons do not develop. A similar pattern of instructive connectivity is seen in the development of the CT pathway. Prior to the establishment of connections between neurons from the deep layers of cortex (layers 5 and 6) and the thalamus, subplate neurons extend and establish connections with thalamic neurons. It is thought that the subplate connections may serve to guide the CT axons to their positions in the thalamus. Once the TC and CT pathways are complete, the subplate neurons retract their connections and the cells themselves gradually die off.
The Basics of Brain Development
 
Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants
A fetus has the same eeg as a brain dead patient until well after 20 weeks. They are brain dead





Actually it is not biologically asinine. The neural connections simply have not developed. No connections = no brain waves = an eeg similar to brain dead.


Abstract
Human brain development is a protracted process that begins in the third gestational week (GW) with the differentiation of the neural progenitor cells and extends at least through late adolescence, arguably throughout the lifespan. The processes that contribute to brain development range from the molecular events of gene expression to environmental input. Critically, these very different levels and kinds of processes interact to support the ongoing series of events that define brain development. Both gene expression and environmental input are essential for normal brain development, and disruption of either can fundamentally alter neural outcomes. But neither genes nor input is prescriptive or determinative of outcome. Rather brain development is aptly characterized as a complex series of dynamic and adaptive processes that operate throughout the course of development to promote the emergence and differentiation of new neural structures and functions. These processes operate within highly constrained and genetically organized, but constantly changing contexts that, over time, support the emergence of the complex and dynamic structure of the human brain (Waddington 1939; Morange 2001; Stiles 2008).
This paper will review some of the major events that contribute to the development of the human brain from its early embryonic state through adolescence.

Two of the most important pathways in the brain are the ones that transmit sensorimotor information, the thalamocortical (TC) and corticothalamic (CT) pathways. The TC relays sensory and motor information from the receptors in the retina, cochlea, muscle or skin to the sensorimotor regions of the neocortex via the major subcortical sensorimotor relay, the thalamus. The CT pathway completes the feedback loop by transmitting information from cortex back to the thalamus. These essential pathways begin to form in the later part of the second trimester in humans, and are complete by GW 26 (Kostovic and Jovanov-Milosevic 2006). The cells of the transient subplate layer of the developing brain (see Fig.*9b) play an essential role in establishing these pathways. When TC axons arrive at the developing cortex during GW22 they do not immediately make connections with neurons in the primary input layer of cortex (layer 4). Rather, they initially make connections with the neurons of the subplate layer. The TC-subplate connections last for approximately 4*weeks, during which time the subplate neurons make connections with neurons in cortical layer 4. The subplate neurons appear to provide instructive input to the TC neurons during this period. In the absence of subplate neuron signaling, normal patterns of connectivity between TC axons and layer 4 cortical neurons do not develop. A similar pattern of instructive connectivity is seen in the development of the CT pathway. Prior to the establishment of connections between neurons from the deep layers of cortex (layers 5 and 6) and the thalamus, subplate neurons extend and establish connections with thalamic neurons. It is thought that the subplate connections may serve to guide the CT axons to their positions in the thalamus. Once the TC and CT pathways are complete, the subplate neurons retract their connections and the cells themselves gradually die off.
The Basics of Brain Development

This was my point. Thanks

The cerebral cortex is the last thing to develop in a fetus
 
What does unatural have to do with this?


The argument is brain function

And now you realized you're wrong again, right? :)

You asked me the difference between a fetus and a persistent vegetative state person. I gave you the most important and unsubtle one. Here's more:

1. A PVS patient has brain damage. A normally-functioning fetus doesn't.
2. PVS is a long-term condition. A normally-functioning fetus has no brain damage, let alone long-term brain damage.
3. Most PVS patients don't respond to stimuli. Fetuses respond to stimuli well before the 24 week mark.
4. And, as we already mentioned, PVS patients need unnatural means to live. Normally-functioning fetuses use natural means to live, breathe and eat.

I know you want to compare the unborn to the brain dead or otherwise brain damaged because it makes you feel better about your position on killing those normally-functioning humans. It doesn't work and you should actually think out what you're thinking (metacognition) before typing.
 
Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants
A fetus has the same eeg as a brain dead patient until well after 20 weeks. They are brain dead





Actually it is not biologically asinine. The neural connections simply have not developed. No connections = no brain waves = an eeg similar to brain dead.


Abstract
Human brain development is a protracted process that begins in the third gestational week (GW) with the differentiation of the neural progenitor cells and extends at least through late adolescence, arguably throughout the lifespan. The processes that contribute to brain development range from the molecular events of gene expression to environmental input. Critically, these very different levels and kinds of processes interact to support the ongoing series of events that define brain development. Both gene expression and environmental input are essential for normal brain development, and disruption of either can fundamentally alter neural outcomes. But neither genes nor input is prescriptive or determinative of outcome. Rather brain development is aptly characterized as a complex series of dynamic and adaptive processes that operate throughout the course of development to promote the emergence and differentiation of new neural structures and functions. These processes operate within highly constrained and genetically organized, but constantly changing contexts that, over time, support the emergence of the complex and dynamic structure of the human brain (Waddington 1939; Morange 2001; Stiles 2008).
This paper will review some of the major events that contribute to the development of the human brain from its early embryonic state through adolescence.

Two of the most important pathways in the brain are the ones that transmit sensorimotor information, the thalamocortical (TC) and corticothalamic (CT) pathways. The TC relays sensory and motor information from the receptors in the retina, cochlea, muscle or skin to the sensorimotor regions of the neocortex via the major subcortical sensorimotor relay, the thalamus. The CT pathway completes the feedback loop by transmitting information from cortex back to the thalamus. These essential pathways begin to form in the later part of the second trimester in humans, and are complete by GW 26 (Kostovic and Jovanov-Milosevic 2006). The cells of the transient subplate layer of the developing brain (see Fig.*9b) play an essential role in establishing these pathways. When TC axons arrive at the developing cortex during GW22 they do not immediately make connections with neurons in the primary input layer of cortex (layer 4). Rather, they initially make connections with the neurons of the subplate layer. The TC-subplate connections last for approximately 4*weeks, during which time the subplate neurons make connections with neurons in cortical layer 4. The subplate neurons appear to provide instructive input to the TC neurons during this period. In the absence of subplate neuron signaling, normal patterns of connectivity between TC axons and layer 4 cortical neurons do not develop. A similar pattern of instructive connectivity is seen in the development of the CT pathway. Prior to the establishment of connections between neurons from the deep layers of cortex (layers 5 and 6) and the thalamus, subplate neurons extend and establish connections with thalamic neurons. It is thought that the subplate connections may serve to guide the CT axons to their positions in the thalamus. Once the TC and CT pathways are complete, the subplate neurons retract their connections and the cells themselves gradually die off.
The Basics of Brain Development

It is biologically asinine to say a fetus is brain dead.
 
This was my point. Thanks

The cerebral cortex is the last thing to develop in a fetus

Which is a normal, developing human -- not a brain dead or brain damaged human.
 
And now you realized you're wrong again, right? :)

You asked me the difference between a fetus and a persistent vegetative state person. I gave you the most important and unsubtle one. Here's more:

1. A PVS patient has brain damage. A normally-functioning fetus doesn't.
2. PVS is a long-term condition. A normally-functioning fetus has no brain damage, let alone long-term brain damage.
3. Most PVS patients don't respond to stimuli. Fetuses respond to stimuli well before the 24 week mark.
4. And, as we already mentioned, PVS patients need unnatural means to live. Normally-functioning fetuses use natural means to live, breathe and eat.

I know you want to compare the unborn to the brain dead or otherwise brain damaged because it makes you feel better about your position on killing those normally-functioning humans. It doesn't work and you should actually think out what you're thinking (metacognition) before typing.

Their brain function is very similar manner. The next of kin can end the life of someone with that type of brain function.


That is true in both cases.


It is morally consistent.


Of course we can also add the the brain dead fetus is also inside the next of kin and poses a risk to her life. All the more reason for her to have the ability to kill it
 
Their brain function is very similar manner. The next of kin can end the life of someone with that type of brain function.


That is true in both cases.


It is morally consistent.


Of course we can also add the the brain dead fetus is also inside the next of kin and poses a risk to her life. All the more reason for her to have the ability to kill it

In other words "It's true because I want it to be true, dammit!"
 
Which is a normal, developing human -- not a brain dead or brain damaged human.

Yet currently undeveloped.....which is the justification given for every abortion
 
That is pure unadulterated BS. The only agenda is protecting innocent life.

Really? OK You make a list of the phrases that say something about protecting innocent life and compare them to my list of phrases describing the punishment of women.

Quote Originally Posted by 2distracted View Post
People are known for believing what they want to believe.. it's human nature rearing its ugly head.. we try to justify all our evil but some day we will be forced to face the truth.. and as Jesus said
By what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you.
Maybe God will say to some in the end
You wanted to live..you always wanted to be free and enjoy life but you didn't give that to others..so you will know in hell what abortion feels like.... forever
 
Sounds good to me.

Abortion only if one has been impregnated by a rapist or a family member or is about to die isn't choice. "Choice" is the right to make a personal decision without interference from the state, a religion, or an organization about the intimate personal life of a woman, her family and the potential child.
 
In other words "It's true because I want it to be true, dammit!"

Or ............ " If I acknowledge that a fetus prior to GW22-26 has an embryologically immature nervous system incapable of feeling pain or being aware, then I can't keep on accusing liberals, women, Democrats and pro-choice advocates of being immoral murderers, baby killers, un-Christian, vicious ideologues. What's the fun in that?"
 
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