• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

NKorea says UN resolution equivalent to 'declaration of war'

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative


Nuke this little tin-pot piece ofshit now Bush you ****ing dumbass it is abundantly clear that Kim Jong il is simply to unpredictable to be allowed to have nuclear weapons this is simply an unacceptable situation and can not be allowed.
 
Last edited:
They must not know the UN very well if they think the UN would actually declare war on anyone... :roll:
 
Leave 'em alone. This is China and Japan's problem, not ours.
 
Kandahar said:
Leave 'em alone. This is China and Japan's problem, not ours.

No this is most certainly our problem as well given the fact that North Korea has shown that they are more than willing to sell their military technology to the highest bidder and even has been proven to sell nuclear technology when Khadafi disarmed Libya.

And are you honestly asserting that we should not enforce the U.N. resolution on North Korea and allow them to continue with their nuclear proliferation?
 
Kandahar said:
This is China and Japan's problem, not ours.

China or Japan sucks down a Korean nuke, and we're going to lose a whole Hell of a lot of money.

They sell a nuclear bomb or missile to Al Qaeda, and we're going to lose a Hell of a lot more than just money.

It's our problem.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
China or Japan sucks down a Korean nuke, and we're going to lose a whole Hell of a lot of money.

They sell a nuclear bomb or missile to Al Qaeda, and we're going to lose a Hell of a lot more than just money.

It's our problem.

Not to mention we're not back stabing little bastards like the French, we defend our allies IE Japan and South Korea.
 
Cammie said:
They must not know the UN very well if they think the UN would actually declare war on anyone... :roll:

Aye aye, agreed to the fullest.
 

North Korea is hardly the best regime in the world to sell nuclear technology. Most rogue states/terrorists don't want nukes the size of a bus with no system to deliver them.

NK's entire nuclear program as we know it today is the result of a certain Pakistani rogue scientist. Where are the sanctions on this country? Not only do they have 'proper' nukes and delivery systems (developed in secrecy without international approval) the nation is also ruled by an unstable military dictator (who has twice been on the verge of nuclear war with India) who allows terrorists to roam free across his country. There is a clear case of double standards here. Further, didn't we just sell missile technology to this unstable, nuclear weapon supplied, terrorist supporting military dictator? Oh yeah, that right...he's our kind of bad guy!!

Its also difficult to see on what basis the UN can try to impose sanctions. NK is not a signatory to the NPT so in theory is free to develop any WMD programme it desires - although I could be wrong so pls post any international law/agreement they are breaching.
 

George W Bush should go on national television and state that any nuclear weapon used by any terrorist group anywhere in the world will be regarded as an attack by North Korea on the United States.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And are you honestly asserting that we should not enforce the U.N. resolution on North Korea and allow them to continue with their nuclear proliferation?

The UN resolution that calls for sanctions? Certainly not. That is the absolute worst thing we could possibly do. We should be working to open North Korea's economy to destabilize the regime.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
China or Japan sucks down a Korean nuke, and we're going to lose a whole Hell of a lot of money.

Not nearly as much as they would. They're both perfectly capable of defending themselves.

Korimyr the Rat said:
They sell a nuclear bomb or missile to Al Qaeda, and we're going to lose a Hell of a lot more than just money.

They can be deterred from doing so, to the same extent that they can be deterred from launching a nuke themselves.

This is not Iran, Kim Jong-il isn't suicidal.
 
we are eventually going to fight this guy.

the question is, do we do it before, or after he has the capability to nuke the entire region.
 


Lets examine the facts and start with the history of North Korea's nuclear program:

Nuclear Program:

1. North Korea signed and ratified the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty on December 12, 1985.

2. Their first nuclear reactor was completed in 1986. This one was a magnox reactor which was a technology developed by the UK in the late 50s and shared and exported by the UK in the late 70s and mid-80s. The North Koreans aquired the blueprints at the Atoms For Peace Conference in 1964 at which our friends the Brits foolishly made them publicly avaiable to all of the delegates at the Conference.

3. North Korea began construction of a new nuclear reactor in 1984 which was, once again, based on technology developed by the UK. Fortunatley, the construction of this one still hasn't been completed.

4. By 1993 North Korea had stockpiled enough processed plutonium to make an estimated 10 nuclear bombs and threatened to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

5. The Clinton administration gave North Korea two options after they threatened to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty: A) Continue to process and stockpile plutonium, withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and the U.S. will bomb you into the next century. or B) Make the terms of the Agreed Framework national policy. Of course, option A was a bluff since there was no way the Republicans would have allowed Clinton to break the ceasefire with North Korea and resume the Korean War. Luckily, North Korea didn't call the bluff and chose option B.

Agreed Framework:

1. The Agreed Framework was created in 1994 and it's terms were as follows:
A) North Korea would recieve fuel oil and economic aid until the United States, South Korea, Japan, Poland, Argentina, Canada, Chile, Australia, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, New Zealand, and the Czech Republic payed for and constructed two new nuclear reactors for civilian use.
B) In exchange, North Korea would stop processing and stockpiling plutonium,
shut down and dismantle it's nuclear reactors, and remain a signatory of the
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Why The Agreed Framework Worked:

1. The Agreed Framework was never designed or intended to completely eliminate North Korea's nuclear program. It's only real goal was to delay the inevitable until the United States could plan a better solution to the problem. It delayed North Korea for 8 years.


What Went Wrong:

1. North Korea did indeed shut down it's completed nuclear reactor, ceased construction of it's second reactor, and stopped processing and stockpiling plutonium but the Clinton administration suspected that North Korea had started processing and stockpiling uranium instead. In response to those allegations, North Korea stated that even if they were processing and stockpiling uranium, nothing about uranium was mentioned in the Agreed Framework, and therefore it was perfectly legal for them to do and not a violation of the Agreed Framework. Of course, the Clinton administration recognized that, although the North Korean's were right about uranium not being mentioned, North Korea was violating the spirit of the Agreed Framework and therefore the administration, along with the other parties involved, refused to provide the new reactors promised them.

2. The fuel oil and economic aid shipments ended in 2002 when the Bush administration was finally able to prove that North Korea was indeed processing and stockpiling both uranium and plutonium. North Korea announced it's withdraw from the Agreed Framework in January of 2003 giving the excuse that they shouldnt' have to abide by it's terms if the other parties involved wouldn't provide them with new reactors as was promised.

3. The Bush administration has continously provoked and stirred the metaphorical pot with North Korea since 2001 then assumes that all will be well if Powell or Rice are sent over there to do a square dance around the diplomatic table. Despite his tough talk regarding North Korea Bush has done absolutley nothing to solve the problem and nearly everything to make it grow.
 

lmfao you're kidding me right? It didn't delay jackshit Kim Jong il never ceased his nuclear weapons program, all this plan did was give Kim vital economic aid which his regime desperately needed and which kept his regime afloat long after it would have collapsed on its own. All Clinton did was pump more money into Kim Jong il's military and nuclear weapons program but hay go ahead and blame Bush and his hostile words. What a crock.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
What a crock.


yup yup.

They just decided to build a nuclear bomb in 2-3 years and POW there it is!
 

If you threaten someone or give them an ultimatum then I guess they are either going to sumbit or fight back. The US under Bush has pushed NK into a corner but they know that if they get 'the bomb' ,and a means of delivering it, the US cannot realistically threaten it again - its hardly a surprise they seek to develop such weapons.

Personally I wouldn't lay the blame on Bush's words, I would rather use his actions. He has his 'axis of evil' list and 2 of the members have already been invaded. Even little Kim must realise that the next target is either himself, Iran or Syria. He needs a deterrant and has sought WMD.

He's just doing the same as any leader across the world would do when threatened, building up his own defences.
 
G-Man said:
He's just doing the same as any leader across the world would do when threatened, building up his own defences.


If KJII was not such a wacko he would be sitting pretty anyway.
 
G-Man said:
If you threaten someone or give them an ultimatum then I guess they are either going to sumbit or fight back. The US under Bush has pushed NK into a corner.

Yes before Bush Kim Jong il was a lovable little fuzzbull and after the harsh words by Bush they created a nuclear weapon in only 3 years time, because ofcouse they couldn't have been working on them long before that.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Yes before Bush Kim Jong il was a lovable little fuzzbull and after the harsh words by Bush they created a nuclear weapon in only 3 years time, because ofcouse they couldn't have been working on them long before that.

They didn't 'create' a nuclear weapon in 3 years- our friends in Pakistan developed nuclear weapons technology just before this period and passed on all that knowledge to NK - they just simply bought the info. Without the assistance of the rogue Pakistani scientist it is extremely doubtedful NK would be anywhere near a fully functioning WMD.

Of course its impossible to determine whether he would have went down this path or not had US policy towards NK not been so hostile but it certainly didn't help.

Military dictator, terrorist sponsor and nuclear weapons technology supplier - maybe we should be taking this up with Pakistan first?
 
Well I hope to god that we don't elect a Clinton or a Bush in the next election, that way we can all blame both of them.

That being said, we need to somehow convince the UN to authorize something other than sanctions and "tough language". This little crazy SOB needs to be dealt with now, not 2 years from now.
 

Wrong. It slowed the program down considerably. As I already pointed out, North Korea had already stockpiled enough processed plutonium to make 10 nuclear bombs by the time the Reagan and Bush the Elder administrations were over. What exactly were they doing about it? The North Korean regime would not have collapsed on it's own without the Agreed Framework. They have a tidy black market for military goodies. The economic aid and fuel oil simply replaced what the North Korea's lost when they shut down their reactors.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
All Clinton did was pump more money into Kim Jong il's military and nuclear weapons program but hay go ahead and blame Bush and his hostile words. What a crock.

Bush needs to take the advice of Theodore Roosevelt ie "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Clinton was the first president to address the issue and stopping the problem without resorting to war was and is completely unrealistic due to the fact that Reagan and Bush the Elder neglected it. Bush pushed North Korea into reopening it's reactors and seeking out help in the development of it's nuclear program with his threats. I do, however, remain unconvinced that North Korea has conducted a real nuclear detonation. The radiation levels are almost nonexistent and, in my opinion, they just detonated a large dirty bomb to make it look like a nuclear detonation.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Wrong. It slowed the program down considerably.

No it didn't they never ceased their nuclear weapons program which is why they were never granted the light water reactors.
The North Korean regime would not have collapsed on it's own without the Agreed Framework.

Yes it would have:


<<<continued below>>>
 
Last edited:
<<<CONTINUED>>>


<<<continued below>>>
 
<<<CONTINUED>>>

 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
<<<CONTINUED>>>


Fact abuse. You arent supposed to use those in a political debate.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…