Newt Gingrich Rethinks Military Interventionism

[jonny5]

And yet, terrorism is alive and well:

According to data from U.S. government terrorism experts, which were reported in the Washington Post, in 2000, the year before the war on terror began, 37 suicide attacks occurred worldwide. Since 9/11, the total climbed steadily to several hundred attacks in each of 2005 and 2006 and then exploded to a whopping 658 attacks in 2007. What’s more, the attacks have occurred in dozens of countries on five continents. Yet according to U.S. intelligence officials, two-thirds of all suicide attacks since 1983 have targeted U.S. policy goals. In other words, the war has been disastrously counterproductive.
War on Terror Dangerously Counterproductive by Ivan Eland -- Antiwar.com



Do you blame Christianity for the violence Ireland experienced throughout the 20th century?

Not the religion itself as it doesnt preach violence. But I do blame Christians.

Also, I didnt claim our policies were effective. Thats debateable and just the opposite actually I said it may not be effective and thus I agree with the point Newt is making that we need to re-examine. My point was that the primary motivation for our policies is to defend Americans and our interests. We dont try to export democracy to cuba or north korea by force because they cant hurt us. Islamic terrorists can, and the reason is because their culture promotes it. So we try to change their culture.

 

[jonny5]

Just as how violence was 'fundamental' to the Christian and Jewish faiths?



Tell that to the self-described neo-cons.




You mean the 'isolationist' (non-interventionist) policies condemned by the GOP?! That could only bring more terrorist to the homefront!

Violence is not fundemental christianity. Fundementalist christianity is peace, love and forgiveness according to the Bible and prophets and whatever. Thats what fundamental is. Muhamed and the Koran, on the other hand, preach violence (which makes it fundamental).

But no, I dont mean isolationism. I mean non intervention. If Libya or Egypt or Syria wants to have a civil war, let them. If someone attacks (or plans to attacks) us or our allies, we defend ourselves.

 

[Fiddytree]

A self-proclaimed neoconservative acknowledging he wasn't right? I never thought this day would come.

Read more. You could have seen it for 30+ years.

 

[Geoist]

Not the religion itself as it doesnt preach violence. But I do blame Christians.

Really? Have you read the Old Testament?

Also, I didnt claim our policies were effective. Thats debateable and just the opposite actually I said it may not be effective and thus I agree with the point Newt is making that we need to re-examine. My point was that the primary motivation for our policies is to defend Americans and our interests.

Yeah, defend corporate interests. Doesn't that run counter to libertarian principles?

We dont try to export democracy to cuba or north korea by force because they cant hurt us. Islamic terrorists can, and the reason is because their culture promotes it. So we try to change their culture.

You know the best way to export democracy? Trade. Trade is the tried and true tool for an open and free society. You can see how isolating N. Korea and Cuba has essentially changed nothing in those countries.

 

[Geoist]

But no, I dont mean isolationism. I mean non intervention.

Same here. And it drives me up the wall when neocons pretend the two are the same. They are practically opposites.

If Libya or Egypt or Syria wants to have a civil war, let them. If someone attacks (or plans to attacks) us or our allies, we defend ourselves.

Fair enough. Though I am wary on alliances.

 

[jonny5]

Really? Have you read the Old Testament?

Yes, have you read the new testament? Are you really trying to say that the whole of Christianity tells people to be violent to people who dont agree with you?

 

[jonny5]

Yeah, defend corporate interests. Doesn't that run counter to libertarian principles?

I disagree, but no. Libertarianism is about defending individuals, whether they are in groups or not.

 

[Montecresto]

Nice of Newt to straighten up this late in the game. He needs to go home and be quiet, he's done enough damage supporting neo-con foreign policy for years. I'm sure the relatives of the hundreds of thousands killed in the ME in the meantime feel all better now that they know it was all just a big mistake.

 

[jonny5]

Nice of Newt to straighten up this late in the game. He needs to go home and be quiet, he's done enough damage supporting neo-con foreign policy for years. I'm sure the relatives of the hundreds of thousands killed in the ME in the meantime feel all better now that they know it was all just a big mistake.

Im sure that was the whole point of his comments, to make them feel better.

 

[Montecresto]

Can't tell if that was sarcasm or not.

 

[Montecresto]

Violence is not fundemental christianity. Fundementalist christianity is peace, love and forgiveness according to the Bible and prophets and whatever. Thats what fundamental is. Muhamed and the Koran, on the other hand, preach violence (which makes it fundamental).

But no, I dont mean isolationism. I mean non intervention. If Libya or Egypt or Syria wants to have a civil war, let them. If someone attacks (or plans to attacks) us or our allies, we defend ourselves.

There are parts of the Koran that teach violence toward the heathen/infidel as there are parts of the Bible that teach violence toward the unrighteous. The history of Israel is full of war. And repeatedly Yahweh instructed them to attack neighbouring nations and kill men, women and children and often all their beasts. All for the crime of worshipping the wrong god and practicing paganism. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and the vast majority of them are peaceful and have no interest in violence and jihad. The US is a predominantly Christian nation with 75-80% professing. And the US has done things from dropping atomic bombs on non-military targets killing tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians in a single moment, to toppling democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictators who then brutalise their citizens, to attacking nations with ulterior motives, nations that haven't harmed us, to manipulating and controlling weak/poor nations thru the IMF and I could go on and on. The Westboro baptist church engages in nasty tactics, Timothy McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers all are engaged in violence for god, but the Christian community at large doesnt want to be judged by the radicals. Nor should they be. Equally, the Muslim community at large does not want to be judged by the radicals.

 

[jonny5]

Can't tell if that was sarcasm or not.

It was. I was answering your sarcasm.

 

[jonny5]

There are parts of the Koran that teach violence toward the heathen/infidel as there are parts of the Bible that teach violence toward the unrighteous. The history of Israel is full of war. And repeatedly Yahweh instructed them to attack neighbouring nations and kill men, women and children and often all their beasts. All for the crime of worshipping the wrong god and practicing paganism. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and the vast majority of them are peaceful and have no interest in violence and jihad. The US is a predominantly Christian nation with 75-80% professing. And the US has done things from dropping atomic bombs on non-military targets killing tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians in a single moment, to toppling democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictators who then brutalise their citizens, to attacking nations with ulterior motives, nations that haven't harmed us, to manipulating and controlling weak/poor nations thru the IMF and I could go on and on. The Westboro baptist church engages in nasty tactics, Timothy McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers all are engaged in violence for god, but the Christian community at large doesnt want to be judged by the radicals. Nor should they be. Equally, the Muslim community at large does not want to be judged by the radicals.

But if you beleive Christiantiy, God changed to peaceful, and sent prophets to tell everyone to be peaceful, and that is the current fundemental teachings. Islam is not. Its fundemental teaching have not renounced violence. And Im not judging the radicals, Im judging the prophet himself. They are just doing what he told them to do.

 

[Montecresto]

It was. I was answering your sarcasm.

Ok good.

 

[Montecresto]

But if you beleive Christiantiy, God changed to peaceful, and sent prophets to tell everyone to be peaceful, and that is the current fundemental teachings. Islam is not. Its fundemental teaching have not renounced violence. And Im not judging the radicals, Im judging the prophet himself. They are just doing what he told them to do.

That misses the point that the vast majority of Muslims see Mohamed's teachings on violence to the infidel as the vast majority of Christians view Yahweh's teaching on violence to the pagan. So it's moot. What is important however is what Christians support, and that is this perpetual, phoney war on Muslims that has taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians in the ME over the last 12 years. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard in conversation with my Christian friends that we should just turn the entire ME into a sea of glass, which of course would do violence to millions of innocents.

 

[jonny5]

That misses the point that the vast majority of Muslims see Mohamed's teachings on violence to the infidel as the vast majority of Christians view Yahweh's teaching on violence to the pagan. So it's moot. What is important however is what Christians support, and that is this perpetual, phoney war on Muslims that has taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians in the ME over the last 12 years. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard in conversation with my Christian friends that we should just turn the entire ME into a sea of glass, which of course would do violence to millions of innocents.

But technically its the peaceful muslims who are the radicals. Killing infidels is what Mohamed WANTS you to do. Wheras God/Jesus wants you to be peaceful. So, violent Christians are indeed radical and going against their religion. Wheras violent Muslims are just doing what their religions orders them to do.

 

[Montecresto]

Technically!?!? There are thousands of jihadists around the world contemplating and executing their crimes against humanity. But there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, going to work, raising a family, eager to live and live at peace and in safety. It is very unkind of you to broad brush the entire religion because of the radical few. Stop acting as though Christianity is superior to the Muslim faith or any other religion for that matter.

 

[jonny5]

Technically!?!? There are thousands of jihadists around the world contemplating and executing their crimes against humanity. But there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, going to work, raising a family, eager to live and live at peace and in safety. It is very unkind of you to broad brush the entire religion because of the radical few. Stop acting as though Christianity is superior to the Muslim faith or any other religion for that matter.

Im not. I stating factual differences. Fundemental Christianity is about peace. Fundemental Islam is about war. Only one of them is trying to kill ME.

 

[Montecresto]

Really now! There are millions of Muslims in the ME that think Christian America is trying to kill them, A and B, you have a far greater chance of dying by a bee sting than at the hands of a terrorist. Your promoting the phoney meme.

 

[jonny5]

Really now! There are millions of Muslims in the ME that think Christian America is trying to kill them, A and B, you have a far greater chance of dying by a bee sting than at the hands of a terrorist. Your promoting the phoney meme.

Their words, not mine.

Fataw

 

[Montecresto]

Oh, I see.