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New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere [W:152]

Anomalism

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I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

A new study, just published in Environmental Research Letters by Steven Sherwood and Nidhi Nashant, has answered a number of questions about the rate at which the Earth is warming. Once again, the mainstream science regarding warming of the atmosphere is shown to be correct. This new study also helps to answer a debate amongst a number of scientists about temperature variations throughout different parts of the atmosphere. When someone says “The Earth is warming”, the first questions to ask are (1) what parts of the Earth? and (2) over what time period? The Earth’s climate system is large; it includes oceans, the atmosphere, land surface, ice areas, etc. When scientists use the phrase “global warming” they are often talking about increases to the amount of energy stored in oceans or increases to the temperature of the atmosphere closest to the ground. By either of these measures, climate change has led to a progressive increase in temperatures over the past four decades. But what about other parts of the climate system? What is happening to them?

One important area to consider is the troposphere. It is the bottom portion of the atmosphere where most weather occurs. Tropospheric temperatures can be taken by satellites, by weather balloons, or other instruments. In the past, both satellites and weather balloons reported no warming or even a cooling. However, that original work was shown to be faulty and now even the most strident sceptics admit that the troposphere is warming. But obtaining an accurate estimate of the rate of warming is difficult. Changes to instruments, errors in measurements, short term fluctuations all can conspire to hide the “real” temperature. This is where the new study comes in. The authors develop a new method to account for natural variability, long-term trends, and instruments in the temperature measurement. They make three conclusions.

First, warming of the atmosphere in the tropical regions of the globe hasn’t changed much since the late 1950s. Temperatures have increased smoothly and follow what is called the moist-adiabatic rate (temperature decrease of humid air with elevation). This result is in very close agreement with climate computer models and it contradicts the view that there is a slowdown in climate change. Second, the vertical height of the tropics that has warmed is a bit smaller than the models predict. Finally, there is a change in observed cooling in the stratosphere – the layer of the atmosphere above the troposphere. Taken together, these results show that the tropospheric warming has continued as predicted by scientists years ago. Embedded in this research is a conclusion about the so-called “tropospheric hot spot”. This “hot spot” refers to expectations that as global warming progresses, the troposphere will warm faster than the Earth surface. The hot spot is really hard to detect; it requires high quality measurements at both the surface and throughout the troposphere. Past studies which could not detect a hot spot were often used by climate contrarians to call into question our simulation models and even our basic understanding of the atmosphere.

But this new study finds a clear signal of the hotspot. In fact, the temperature in the troposphere is rising roughly 80% faster than the temperature at the Earth’s surface (within the tropics region). This finding agrees very well with climate models which predicted a 64% difference. And this is exactly how models are supposed to work. Models can be used to predict changes that will occur in the future. Once we make measurements, we can compare them with the models. If the two disagree, it either means our models are wrong, our measurements are wrong, or both are wrong. More often than not, the models have been found to be vindicated. In the case of the tropospheric temperatures, initially the models and experiments disagreed. Both were rechecked and scientists found the experiments were misinterpreted. When improved experiments were obtained, we see atmosphere temperature studies in agreement. This study also helps us see that the troposphere is warming as we expected. Furthermore, this is yet another study that calls into question the significance of the so-called “hiatus.” I am hopeful that more studies on this important topic will be completed in the near future. Measurements of the Earth’s climate system and their comparison against climate models provide excellent test cases for scientists to improve their understanding of the processes that drive today’s and tomorrow’s climate.
 
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Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

A new study, just published in Environmental Research Letters by Steven Sherwood and Nidhi Nashant, has answered a number of questions about the rate at which the Earth is warming. Once again, the mainstream science regarding warming of the atmosphere is shown to be correct. This new study also helps to answer a debate amongst a number of scientists about temperature variations throughout different parts of the atmosphere. When someone says “The Earth is warming”, the first questions to ask are (1) what parts of the Earth? and (2) over what time period? The Earth’s climate system is large; it includes oceans, the atmosphere, land surface, ice areas, etc. When scientists use the phrase “global warming” they are often talking about increases to the amount of energy stored in oceans or increases to the temperature of the atmosphere closest to the ground. By either of these measures, climate change has led to a progressive increase in temperatures over the past four decades. But what about other parts of the climate system? What is happening to them?

One important area to consider is the troposphere. It is the bottom portion of the atmosphere where most weather occurs. Tropospheric temperatures can be taken by satellites, by weather balloons, or other instruments. In the past, both satellites and weather balloons reported no warming or even a cooling. However, that original work was shown to be faulty and now even the most strident sceptics admit that the troposphere is warming. But obtaining an accurate estimate of the rate of warming is difficult. Changes to instruments, errors in measurements, short term fluctuations all can conspire to hide the “real” temperature. This is where the new study comes in. The authors develop a new method to account for natural variability, long-term trends, and instruments in the temperature measurement. They make three conclusions.

First, warming of the atmosphere in the tropical regions of the globe hasn’t changed much since the late 1950s. Temperatures have increased smoothly and follow what is called the moist-adiabatic rate (temperature decrease of humid air with elevation). This result is in very close agreement with climate computer models and it contradicts the view that there is a slowdown in climate change. Second, the vertical height of the tropics that has warmed is a bit smaller than the models predict. Finally, there is a change in observed cooling in the stratosphere – the layer of the atmosphere above the troposphere. Taken together, these results show that the tropospheric warming has continued as predicted by scientists years ago. Embedded in this research is a conclusion about the so-called “tropospheric hot spot”. This “hot spot” refers to expectations that as global warming progresses, the troposphere will warm faster than the Earth surface. The hot spot is really hard to detect; it requires high quality measurements at both the surface and throughout the troposphere. Past studies which could not detect a hot spot were often used by climate contrarians to call into question our simulation models and even our basic understanding of the atmosphere.

But this new study finds a clear signal of the hotspot. In fact, the temperature in the troposphere is rising roughly 80% faster than the temperature at the Earth’s surface (within the tropics region). This finding agrees very well with climate models which predicted a 64% difference. And this is exactly how models are supposed to work. Models can be used to predict changes that will occur in the future. Once we make measurements, we can compare them with the models. If the two disagree, it either means our models are wrong, our measurements are wrong, or both are wrong. More often than not, the models have been found to be vindicated. In the case of the tropospheric temperatures, initially the models and experiments disagreed. Both were rechecked and scientists found the experiments were misinterpreted. When improved experiments were obtained, we see atmosphere temperature studies in agreement. This study also helps us see that the troposphere is warming as we expected. Furthermore, this is yet another study that calls into question the significance of the so-called “hiatus.” I .....rrow’s climate.

It is certainly fine to more research. Pitty the climate pessimists acted so arrogantly sure of themselves before they had the facts right. As it is now, they have lost so much credibility that nobody in her right mind will believe them till there is highly precise knowledge.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

And it's any surprise that re-interpreting the data reveals just what they were expecting ahead of time how? And this, if accurate and not just more modeling for success of your theory, proves AGW how?
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

A new study, just published in Environmental Research Letters by Steven Sherwood and Nidhi Nashant, has answered a number of questions about the rate at which the Earth is warming. Once again, the mainstream science regarding warming of the atmosphere is shown to be correct. This new study also helps to answer a debate amongst a number of scientists about temperature variations throughout different parts of the atmosphere. When someone says “The Earth is warming”, the first questions to ask are (1) what parts of the Earth? and (2) over what time period? The Earth’s climate system is large; it includes oceans, the atmosphere, land surface, ice areas, etc. When scientists use the phrase “global warming” they are often talking about increases to the amount of energy stored in oceans or increases to the temperature of the atmosphere closest to the ground. By either of these measures, climate change has led to a progressive increase in temperatures over the past four decades. But what about other parts of the climate system? What is happening to them?

One important area to consider is the troposphere. It is the bottom portion of the atmosphere where most weather occurs. Tropospheric temperatures can be taken by satellites, by weather balloons, or other instruments. In the past, both satellites and weather balloons reported no warming or even a cooling. However, that original work was shown to be faulty and now even the most strident sceptics admit that the troposphere is warming. But obtaining an accurate estimate of the rate of warming is difficult. Changes to instruments, errors in measurements, short term fluctuations all can conspire to hide the “real” temperature. This is where the new study comes in. The authors develop a new method to account for natural variability, long-term trends, and instruments in the temperature measurement. They make three conclusions.

First, warming of the atmosphere in the tropical regions of the globe hasn’t changed much since the late 1950s. Temperatures have increased smoothly and follow what is called the moist-adiabatic rate (temperature decrease of humid air with elevation). This result is in very close agreement with climate computer models and it contradicts the view that there is .snip...

But this new study finds a clear signal of the hotspot. In fact, the temperature in the troposphere is rising roughly 80% faster than the temperature at the Earth’s surface (within the tropics region). This finding agrees very well with climate models which predicted a 64% difference. And this is exactly how models are supposed to work. Models can be used to predict changes that will occur in the future. Once we make measurements, we can compare them with the models. If the two disagree, it either means our models are wrong, our measurements are wrong, or both are wrong. More often than not, the models have been found to be vindicated. In the case of the tropospheric temperatures, initially the models and experiments disagreed. Both were rechecked and scientists found the experiments were misinterpreted. When improved experiments were obtained, we see atmosphere temperature studies in agreement. This study also helps us see that the troposphere is warming as we expected. Furthermore, this is yet another study that calls into question the significance of the so-called “hiatus.” I am hopeful that more studies on this important topic will be completed in the near future. Measurements of the Earth’s climate system and their comparison against climate models provide excellent test cases for scientists to improve their understanding of the processes that drive today’s and tomorrow’s climate.

Prepare for the regurgitation of the Corporate/Media stenographic talking points denying AGW. They don't even know they are being brainwashed, so how ya' gonna fix their noodles on the inside. They already been fixed, with bad info, and "ignorance is bliss."
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

Then explain to me how it makes sense. If the troposphere in tropical regions have not changed since the 1950's, then it may not show a slow down in change, but it also does not seem to indicate that change existed in the first place. Please explain how no change proves change?

That is is hotter in the tropic troposphere than it is in the tropical surface just shows that heat rises does it not?

I do not see that this demonstrates anything one way or the other.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

Now, now...don't you think you're going too far? After all, as so many on the Right assure us, there's (1) no global warming at all, and (2) even if there is, there's no way that human civilization is at fault even when burning one gallon of gas puts twenty pounds of CO2 in the atmosphere (and humanity burns billions of gallons of gas per year). Even when all the rest of the world begins going to heck in a handbasket from climate change and rising ocean levels, we must not think that human civilization had anything to do with it...because if we did, that might cost Big Oil a couple pennies on the dollar...and THAT is flatly unthinkable!!!!
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I am always a bit skeptical with any bold new claim by someone claiming to have spotted something
no one else has. Lets look at a few thing, first the paper itself rather than an article about the paper.
http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/10/5/054007/pdf/erl_10_5_054007.pdf

So Sherwood claims there is a hot spot over the tropics at about 30,000',
that has warmed at between 0.25–0.3 K/decade since ether 1979 or 1959.
Yet the RSS has been sensing that range (TTS) since about 1985,
and shows warming of only .008 K/decade.
RSS / MSU and AMSU Data / Time Series Trend Browser
The question should become, How is the RSS (TTS) off by more than a factor of 2, when
the same process for TTL yielded a good correlation with ground stations up till 1998?
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

Prepare for the regurgitation of the Corporate/Media stenographic talking points denying AGW. They don't even know they are being brainwashed, so how ya' gonna fix their noodles on the inside. They already been fixed, with bad info, and "ignorance is bliss."

The exact same can be said of the AGW cultists.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

The exact same can be said of the AGW cultists.

I see! All these people in the real World dealing with numbers, math and science are
cultists. My buddy, Justin O. Peewillie, knows a shaman that will get you really good
info to substantiate any viewpoint on any subject, no math or science required. Do the
Math.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I see! All these people in the real World dealing with numbers, math and science are
cultists. My buddy, Justin O. Peewillie, knows a shaman that will get you really good
info to substantiate any viewpoint on any subject, no math or science required. Do the
Math.
I suspect he is speaking not about the Scientist, but the pro AGW folks who blindly accept
what the what is said about AGW without actually looking at the math and the science themselves.
I would recommend everyone be skeptical and look over the data for themselves.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I see! All these people in the real World dealing with numbers, math and science are
cultists. My buddy, Justin O. Peewillie, knows a shaman that will get you really good
info to substantiate any viewpoint on any subject, no math or science required. Do the
Math.
Yeah, well, 9-11 truthers claim to deal with math and science, too, and just take a look at those knuckleheads.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

Then explain to me how it makes sense. If the troposphere in tropical regions have not changed since the 1950's, then it may not show a slow down in change, but it also does not seem to indicate that change existed in the first place. Please explain how no change proves change?

That is is hotter in the tropic troposphere than it is in the tropical surface just shows that heat rises does it not?

I do not see that this demonstrates anything one way or the other.

One hypothesis is that CO2 actually has no significant effect, and changes are due to changing absolute humidity. The tropics might be already saturated in not being able to have more warming.

Warming is the greatest in the polar regions, where the absolute humidity is the least and changes the most, and effectively nonexistent in equatorial areas.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

Pretty easy, really.

New satellite analysis fails to find the hot spot, agrees with millions of weather balloons


Here I go, harping on about the missing hot spot again.
Roy Spencer has been hunting for the famous missing hot spot (like half the climate world) but he’s been looking in the UAH satellite temperature data. Last week Sherwood et al claimed they finally found it (again!) in an iteratively reiterated homogenized and adjusted version of radiosondes. Spencer was not impressed with the black box statistics approach. As I pointed out here, the Sherwood results was adjusted so much it did not look like the original data, and they somehow found the hotspot by adding in data from years when a hot spot shouldn’t occur. They mushed the data to fit one part of their model, but it broke in other parts.
Roy Spencer has used new methods to improve the satellite signal of the hot spot, and is “increasingly convinced” the all important mysterious hot spot is really not there, which fits with 28 million weather balloons and humidity data too. Satellites are not particularly good at finding the hot spot because it is a very thin layer over the tropics and satellites peering down from on high find it difficult to measure signals from 10km up and separate them from signals, say 8km up. Radiosondes are much better at resolving the different layers, which is really what matters — only the uppermost layer of water vapor counts, not the total column. Having said that, satellites are pretty handy over the oceans where not many weather balloons get released, and it would be good if we could use them.
See my last post on the missing hot spot if you can’t figure out why I go on and on about this mythical zone. It’s the key flaw in the models that amplifies the effects of CO2, but which study after study, and millions of measurements, show is probably just a bad guess that ought to have died properly long ago.
What Roy Spencer found was confirmation for the twentieth time that the models are wrong about this their major, most important feedback.
“…what is really striking in the above plot is how strong the climate models’ average warming trend over the tropical oceans is in the upper troposphere (+0.35 C/decade, dark red), which I calculate to be about 1.89 times the models’ average surface trend (+0.19 C/decade, dark green). This ratio of 1.89 is based upon the UT weighting function applied to the model average temperature trend profile from the surface to 100 mb (16 km) altitude.
So, what we see is that the models are off by about a factor of 2 on surface warming, but maybe by a factor of 5 (!) for upper tropospheric warming.


This is “preliminary” so needs confirmation, but the results are pretty stark.

Keep reading →
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere


[h=1]Uh, oh: Looks like Lewandowsky and Oreskes will be going after the AGU now for admitting the ‘hiatus’ exists[/h] Given Lew and Oreskes latest admonition to scientists who use the word “pause” or “hiatus” it looks like they’ll be applying the “D” word to the entire AGU community of scientists any minute now. From the AGU website, EOS: Tracking the Missing Heat from the Global Warming Hiatus Despite indications that the Pacific Ocean is…
Continue reading →
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere


[h=1]Claim: Climate scientists find elusive tropospheric hot spot over the Southern Ocean[/h] First of all, consider the source, UNSW is the same outfit that sponsored the disastrous “ship of fools” aka The Spirit of Mawson. Secondly, Dr. Roy Spencer has been looking for this for years in the satellite data and hasn’t found it. Thirdly, radiosonde coverage in their area of study is pretty sparse. From the…
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

Call me the basics one but surely if you put the amount of energy which is "missing" into a 1km colum of thin air at 10km up you could not avoid noticing it as the air might have turned into plasma. The heat capacity of thin air at 30,000 feet not being all that high even for a whole kilometer of the stuff.

Even if they manage to find a slight increas in temperature the energy in that air will be tiny.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I can't wait for the AGW deniers to tell me why this scientific study is nonsense.

New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

A new study, just published in Environmental Research Letters by Steven Sherwood and Nidhi Nashant, has answered a number of questions about the rate at which the Earth is warming... (clipped for length).

This is the same bunch who launched the Ship of Fools expedition.

Other groups have been trying to find the hot spot for many years. Satellite observations in particular haven't been able to demonstrate that it exists. Suffice to say that their findings require confirmation by other groups of scientists before we conclude that the existence of the hot spot is a reality.

To determine the rate at which the earth is warming one need only look at a thermometer. Playing hide the salami with heat is a perfectly ridiculous dodge played by perfectly ridiculous people.
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I am always a bit skeptical with any bold new claim by someone claiming to have spotted something
no one else has. Lets look at a few thing, first the paper itself rather than an article about the paper.
http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/10/5/054007/pdf/erl_10_5_054007.pdf

So Sherwood claims there is a hot spot over the tropics at about 30,000',
that has warmed at between 0.25–0.3 K/decade since ether 1979 or 1959.
Yet the RSS has been sensing that range (TTS) since about 1985,
and shows warming of only .008 K/decade.
RSS / MSU and AMSU Data / Time Series Trend Browser
The question should become, How is the RSS (TTS) off by more than a factor of 2, when
the same process for TTL yielded a good correlation with ground stations up till 1998?

I think you need to revisit that math
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

I think you need to revisit that math
On the RSS Time Series Trend Browse Tool,
RSS / MSU and AMSU Data / Time Series Trend Browser
You have to select the TTS Channel and the Tropics region.
http://data.remss.com/msu/graphics/TTS/time_series/RSS_TS_channel_TTS_Tropics_Land_And_Sea_v03_3.txt
I was eyeballing the graph, the series only goes back to 1987,
but the .008 K/ per decade was the RSS Figure, straight off the chart,
I am guessing you think they should revisit their math also?
 
Re: New study finds a hot spot in the atmosphere

On the RSS Time Series Trend Browse Tool,
RSS / MSU and AMSU Data / Time Series Trend Browser
You have to select the TTS Channel and the Tropics region.
http://data.remss.com/msu/graphics/TTS/time_series/RSS_TS_channel_TTS_Tropics_Land_And_Sea_v03_3.txt
I was eyeballing the graph, the series only goes back to 1987,
but the .008 K/ per decade was the RSS Figure, straight off the chart,
I am guessing you think they should revisit their math also?

So your claim is that 0.25/.008 ~=2.
 
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