New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics[W:80]

[the_recruit]

A New Physics Theory of Life - Scientific American

Very far from being fact, but still very interesting and worth studying. If he's right it would have profound implications on the prevalence of life elsewhere in the universe. Instead of being a one-in-a-billion lucky roll of the die, life becomes something that will tend to happen on planets bathed in sunlight for eons.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

A New Physics Theory of Life - Scientific American

Very far from being fact, but still very interesting and worth studying. If he's right it would have profound implications on the prevalence of life elsewhere in the universe. Instead of being a one-in-a-billion lucky roll of the die, life becomes something that will tend to happen on planets bathed in sunlight for eons.

Mr. England should stick to physics, and avoid treading in biology and philosophy.

First of all, he doesn't actually explain how exactly entropy, the process by which energy levels tend to equilibrium, would cause the creation of anti-entropic systems. And pointing out the obvious that anti-entropic systems increase entropy in the rest of the world doesn't cut it, as the rest of the world isn't calculating how to increase its entropy, it just tends to do so.

Second, life is not simply a system which dissipates energy with a level of uniformity, there are plenty of systems that do that, that aren't alive.

Third, this relates to the second point, it is impossible for life to come from non-life, just as it is impossible for a photon striking a nucleus to produce negative mass particles and antiparticles, because a thing cannot give what it does not have, thus any speculative discussion about the origins of life which ignores the existence of the Creator, is based on bad premises. So again, there is no reason to believe that life exists anywhere other than on Earth and anywhere in the solar system our probes have brought it.

 

[chromium]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

What makes it compelling to me is the self replication of nonliving things, which they'll be able to test. Interesting too how it can account for traits that aren't really driven by natural selection.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Third, this relates to the second point, it is impossible for life to come from non-life

So where does the matter that makes up my body come from? Are the water molecules and carbon atoms somehow alive?

 

[DDD]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

A New Physics Theory of Life - Scientific American

Very far from being fact, but still very interesting and worth studying. If he's right it would have profound implications on the prevalence of life elsewhere in the universe. Instead of being a one-in-a-billion lucky roll of the die, life becomes something that will tend to happen on planets bathed in sunlight for eons.

Thanks,

This theory could too be put nicely with the rest of theories of origin of life in here, could it not?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/science-and-technology/153227-origins-life.html

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

So where does the matter that makes up my body come from? Are the water molecules and carbon atoms somehow alive?

The matter itself came from the core of a star. However the form of a living thing, was created by God.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

The matter itself came from the core of a star. However the form of a living thing, was created by God.

So then life can come from non-life. Otherwise it would nit be possible for life to continue.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Mr. England should stick to physics, and avoid treading in biology and philosophy.

"England, who is trained in both biochemistry and physics, started his own lab at MIT two years ago and decided to apply the new knowledge of statistical physics to biology."

:lol:

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

So then life can come from non-life. Otherwise it would nit be possible for life to continue.

The matter which makes up life comes from non-living things, but that's not the point.

 

[prometeus]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

thus any speculative discussion about the origins of life which ignores the existence of the Creator, is based on bad premises.

One just has to love the dismissal of any premise that could possibly be tested, in favor of mindless blind dogma which of course can never be tested.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

One just has to love the dismissal of any premise that could possibly be tested, in favor of mindless blind dogma which of course can never be tested.

I haven't cited dogma at all in this thread.

And by all means, test this man's theory. Of course it is unfalsifiable.

 

[prometeus]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

I haven't cited dogma at all in this thread.

Right you just declared that without the Creator nothing can or should be considered.

And by all means, test this man's theory.

That is not the point. Your baseless dismissal in favor of untestable religious dogma is the point. Had you had the least bit of open mind or intellectual curiosity you would want to see it tested first before declaring it a failure. Then again, it is you who would want to return the world to the dark Middle Ages.

Of course it is unfalsifiable.

And you know this how or can support it with what?

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Right you just declared that without the Creator nothing can or should be considered.

1. The existence of the Creator is deductible from natural reason, without Christian dogma.

2. I said that without the Creator, the means of the origin of life cannot be reasonably considered. Of course things occurring within the order of nature, such as an object falling to the ground or natural generation, even though the Creator is their ultimate cause, can be discussed without reference to him.

That is not the point. Your baseless dismissal in favor of untestable religious dogma is the point. Had you had the least bit of open mind or intellectual curiosity you would want to see it tested first before declaring it a failure. Then again, it is you who would want to return the world to the dark Middle Ages.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that it's not possible to test this man's theory. And again, I didn't mention religious dogma.

And you know this how or can support it with what?

The dictionary.

 

[prometeus]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

1. The existence of the Creator is deductible from natural reason, without Christian dogma.

In your imaginary world.

2. I said that without the Creator, the means of the origin of life cannot be reasonably considered.

Which is itself irrational.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that it's not possible to test this man's theory.

Because you can not conceive it?

The dictionary.

OK quote the relevant definition.

 

[the_recruit]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

First of all, he doesn't actually explain how exactly entropy, the process by which energy levels tend to equilibrium,

No, entropy is not a process.

would cause the creation of anti-entropic systems.

There are no "anti-entropic" systems. There are systems. Some systems have high entropy. Some systems have low entropy.

And it is very well-known that local instances (read: open systems) of low entropy (highly ordered) can and do spontaneously emerge, especially within systems far from equilibrium. Look around, the world is utterly filled with them. Crystals, planets, viruses...

And pointing out the obvious that anti-entropic systems increase entropy in the rest of the world doesn't cut it, as the rest of the world isn't calculating how to increase its entropy, it just tends to do so.

:doh You just answered your own question. The world doesn't calculate how to increase its entropy production through ordering, it just tends to do so.

Laws are descriptions of how the world behaves. The world doesn't have to be "aware" of any law to follow that law. It just has to behave as the law says it behaves (ie, the law is true). The world doesn't have to "know" that it's moving toward higher entropy to move toward higher entropy. The world doesn't have to "know" that structures are emerging that increase entropy production for structures to emerge that increase entropy production.

Second, life is not simply a system which dissipates energy with a level of uniformity,

Indeed, "life" refers to one very specific such system. Turtles and oak trees and algae and mushrooms and humans, etc

there are plenty of systems that do that, that aren't alive.

No one said or implied all such systems are.

Third, this relates to the second point, it is impossible for life to come from non-life, just as it is impossible for a photon striking a nucleus to produce negative mass particles and antiparticles, because a thing cannot give what it does not have,

You are profoundly confused. No one is "giving" anything. Things are not "given" life. A thing is alive (or is not).

thus any speculative discussion about the origins of life which ignores the existence of the Creator, is based on bad premises.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

There are no "anti-entropic" systems. There are systems. Some systems have high entropy. Some systems have low entropy.

And it is very well-known that local instances (read: open systems) of low entropy (highly ordered) can and do spontaneously emerge, especially within systems far from equilibrium. Look around, the world is utterly filled with them. Crystals, planets, viruses...

Planets come into being through the force of gravity, as well as during very early formation do to molecular bonds. Crystals are created by extreme pressure. Viruses come from higher life forms.

There is no natural mechanism by which life is created new.

:doh You just answered your own question. The world doesn't calculate how to increase its entropy production through ordering, it just tends to do so.

Laws are descriptions of how the world behaves. The world doesn't have to be "aware" of any law to follow that law. It just has to behave as the law says it behaves (ie, the law is true). The world doesn't have to "know" that it's moving toward higher entropy to move toward higher entropy. The world doesn't have to "know" that structures are emerging that increase entropy production for structures to emerge that increase entropy production.

Because nature does not know what it is doing, it can only do things that can occur without intelligent direction.

You are profoundly confused. No one is "giving" anything. Things are not "given" life. A thing is alive (or is not).

Are you saying that life has existed forever?

 

[blarg]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

1. The existence of the Creator is deductible from natural reason, without Christian dogma.

2. I said that without the Creator, the means of the origin of life cannot be reasonably considered. Of course things occurring within the order of nature, such as an object falling to the ground or natural generation, even though the Creator is their ultimate cause, can be discussed without reference to him.



I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that it's not possible to test this man's theory. And again, I didn't mention religious dogma.



The dictionary.

bull **** your Thomas Aquinas arguments have never cut it in any other thread and you just run off rather then deal with it over and over

 

[mbig]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Planets come into being through the force of gravity, as well as during very early formation do to molecular bonds.

Not god/dog?

Crystals are created by extreme pressure.

"Extreme pressure" such as letting sugar water dry.

Viruses come from higher life forms.

Viruses Live IN higher life forms. Their origins more mysterious.

There is No natural mechanism by which life is created new.

Repeated baseless Religious statement.
You keep making it and can't prove it.
AGAIN: Life May arise naturally given certain molecules, condition, and time.
It may be plentiful and varied or even probable/inevitable in certain combinations of time/chemistry.

Because nature does not know what it is doing, it can only do things that can occur without intelligent direction.

Nature and the universe ARE chaotic. This more an UNWITting admission of No god than a claim for one.

Are you saying that life has existed forever?

non sequitur/deflection.
Obviously he isn't.
EVIDENCE is that life on earth is about 3.5 Billion years old and started extremely simply and EVOLVED Slowly through Unintelligent Mutation/trial-and-error to more complex forms.
There is NO divinity in the messy fossil record.
It TOO is filled with the failures/extinction and chaos of nature.
In a few million years post-sapien humanoids will laugh at our primitive minds and bodies and especially primitive gods/dogs/popes/poops/caliphates and other witch doctors, just as we marvel at primitive Neanderthals and the 'Fire god'/etc.

You also didn't/couldn't answer prometus' #14, poking the same Black Hole as everyone else has in your bizarro voodoo claims.

 

[the_recruit]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Planets come into being through the force of gravity, as well as during very early formation do to molecular bonds. Crystals are created by extreme pressure. Viruses come from higher life forms.

Uh-huh. All instances of nature ordering itself. Localized low entropy.

Self-organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Non-equilibrium thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no natural mechanism by which life is created new.

It's "created" by the very same mechanisms that have "created" everything around us. We call said mechanisms "the laws of physics".

Because nature does not know what it is doing, it can only do things that can occur without intelligent direction.

I couldn't agree more.

Are you saying that life has existed forever?

No

 

[Fearandloathing]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

A New Physics Theory of Life - Scientific American

Very far from being fact, but still very interesting and worth studying. If he's right it would have profound implications on the prevalence of life elsewhere in the universe. Instead of being a one-in-a-billion lucky roll of the die, life becomes something that will tend to happen on planets bathed in sunlight for eons.

I like that a whole lot better than the idea of primordial soup, random lightning and luck. I once had a mathematician explain to me that the chances of complex life emerging from that would be similar to lightening striking a junk yard and getting a Boeing 747 as a result

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

It's "created" by the very same mechanisms that have "created" everything around us. We call said mechanisms "the laws of physics".

Which laws of physics provide a mechanism for life to come into existence?

 

[mbig]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

1. Note Paleocon's posts got categorically SHREDDED by several posters on the last page, including me, and his only 'reply' was a 'question' to 'the recruit' on One portion of his.
Nada, ZIP, Zilch, WHIFF. His usual.

I like that a whole lot better than the idea of primordial soup, random lightning and luck. I once had a mathematician explain to me that the chances of complex life emerging from that would be similar to lightening striking a junk yard and getting a Boeing 747 as a result

2. One hardly needs a "mathematician" for that common/Trite creationist herring.
And even tho you're probably Lying, a biologist would have been better for the job and been able to explain to you that there was 3.5 BILLION years of slowly morphing/Evolving/progressing life between that "747" and ie, a bolt.
It was NOT instant and the analogy Inane/Obtuse.

I recently debunked another of the group that 'X Factor' Kweationist-Kwote mined: the explosion at the printing press leaving an in tact Bible.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...s-immediate-middle-finger.html#post1064035624
Didn't work well for him either. In fact a permanent disaster/discrediting it was.

I'm going to take this Op to start a string on your Bogus one (aka 'Junkyard Tornado'), which is the most famous of the BS simpleton 'analogies'.

 

[the_recruit]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Which laws of physics provide a mechanism for life to come into existence?

All of them, in some way or another have led to the current state of the universe (ie, led to the existence of life).

 

[Paleocon]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

All of them, in some way or another have led to the current state of the universe (ie, led to the existence of life).

Specifically?

 

[the_recruit]

Re: New ideas on the origins of life and thermodynamics

Specifically?

Electromagnetism, for example. Provides the bonds necessary for the various molecules and physical happenings that collectively form a living being.