• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

NATO is Now Dead

NJBob said:
I’ll help you out since you seem to be unable find info on your own; Khrushchev Remembers, page 155 of the 1970 edition.



Looks like you are just another victim of Russian lies and propaganda.
Click to expand...
😂

Hilarious that you think well established historical fact is “Russian propaganda”.

They didn’t lose anywhere near a million men during the Winter War. They didn’t even deploy a million men during the Winter War.

Your claims are laughable.

As mentioned....prove it. Let’s see a picture, or a screenshot, or literally anything that isn’t you just saying “dude, trust me he totally said it”.
 
Surrealistik said:
I asked for sources that clearly demonstrate that NATO, as an organization, has specifically worked to stop member countries from leaving; you have not provided.


I have never seen Trump, who is the primary pusher of this 51st state nonsense, ever refer to Russia as The reason for it, or even A reason for it. Again, please source your claims.

And yes, it is very much irrelevant to me and my motives for opposing Russia. I don't care about what you deem to be Trump's propaganda, but I do care that Russia's invasion is blatantly in the wrong.
Click to expand...
The repeated coups carried out by NATO backed “stay behinds” in places like Turkey and support for fascist terrorists elsewhere, who carried out attacks designed to prevent the Left in places like Italy from winning democratic elections(and leaving NATO) demonstrates that clearly.

Trump has repeatedly cited the idea of Canada joining the US to be “protected”. Who, exactly, do you think he was talking about there if not Russia?
 
Tigerace117 said:
😂

Hilarious that you think well established historical fact is “Russian propaganda”.

They didn’t lose anywhere near a million men during the Winter War. They didn’t even deploy a million men during the Winter War.

Your claims are laughable.

As mentioned....prove it. Let’s see a picture, or a screenshot, or literally anything that isn’t you just saying “dude, trust me he totally said it”.
Click to expand...
Since when do you have a problem with Russian propaganda? You live and breathe the stuff.

I told you what Khrushchev said and I even bothered to tell you where you could find it. Now you want a screenshot? Stop it, I’m not your Google.

Just have the grace to admit you were wrong or at a minimum stop making yourself look ever more pathetic.
 
NJBob said:
Since when do you have a problem with Russian propaganda? You live and breathe the stuff.

I told you what Khrushchev said and I even bothered to tell you where you could find it. Now you want a screenshot? Stop it, I’m not your Google.

Just have the grace to admit you were wrong or at a minimum stop making yourself look ever more pathetic.
Click to expand...
You claimed Khrushchev said something which I’ve already established is utterly false. When challenged to prove it you panicked and started wailing about “Russian propaganda”, and still haven’t managed to provide any evidence other than “dude, just trust me he totally said it dude”.

If you are going to make a laughably false claim that flies in the face of well established historical evidence, I expect you to do the work to back it up, yes. Refusing to provide any actual evidence that a source says what you claim makes it seem pretty likely you simply invented said claim.

Why would I admit that when your claim is blatantly and utterly false? It’s indeed pathetic that the West needs to invent fairy tales about Russia losing a “million” men in the few month long Winter War, but that doesn’t change the facts.
 
Tigerace117 said:
The repeated coups carried out by NATO backed “stay behinds” in places like Turkey and support for fascist terrorists elsewhere, who carried out attacks designed to prevent the Left in places like Italy from winning democratic elections(and leaving NATO) demonstrates that clearly.
Click to expand...
In otherwords, you cannot source or link a single instance of NATO undertaking a mission specifically to compel or coerce a nation that sought to leave it into remaining; so noted.

Tigerace117 said:
Trump has repeatedly cited the idea of Canada joining the US to be “protected”. Who, exactly, do you think he was talking about there if not Russia?
Click to expand...
First of all, if he did (and I cannot find an instance of that with a google search despite your claims of him repeatedly doing so), that does not actually substantiate your claims. Second, sources please.
 
Surrealistik said:
In otherwords, you cannot source or link a single instance of NATO undertaking a mission specifically to compel or coerce a nation that sought to leave it into remaining; so noted.


First of all, if he did (and I cannot find an instance of that with a google search despite your claims of him repeatedly doing so), that does not actually substantiate your claims. Second, sources please.
Click to expand...
In other words, you find the actions of the Contra-Guerilla and other such groups inconvenient, so you will simply ignore them.

“The following day on February 2, Trump reaffirmed his desire to annex Canada in a statement saying that Canada should become the "cherished 51st State", promising no tariffs and guaranteeing their military security if they do.[62] ”

For example

en.m.wikipedia.org

Movements for the annexation of Canada to the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

You didn’t look all that hard, apparently.
 
Tigerace117 said:
In other words, you find the actions of the Contra-Guerilla and other such groups inconvenient, so you will simply ignore them.
Click to expand...
No, I'm merely, and correctly, pointing out that you cannot produce any evidence that NATO ever undertook a mission specifically to compel or coerce a nation into remaining.
Tigerace117 said:
“The following day on February 2, Trump reaffirmed his desire to annex Canada in a statement saying that Canada should become the "cherished 51st State", promising no tariffs and guaranteeing their military security if they do.[62] ”

For example

en.m.wikipedia.org

Movements for the annexation of Canada to the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

You didn’t look all that hard, apparently.
Click to expand...
I didn't, it was pretty cursory with a search depth of about two pages running related key words, but I shouldn't have to for something supposedly 'repeatedly stated'.

Further as mentioned, Trump dropping a throw away line about 'guaranteeing military security' in a singular instance is not in any way comparable to stoking Russiaphobia, and as stated does not substantiate your claims to that effect.
 
Surrealistik said:
No, I'm merely, and correctly, pointing out that you cannot produce any evidence that NATO ever undertook a mission specifically to compel or coerce a nation into remaining.

I didn't, it was pretty cursory with a search depth of about two pages running related key words, but I shouldn't have to for something supposedly 'repeatedly stated'.

Further as mentioned, Trump dropping a throw away line about 'guaranteeing military security' in a singular instance is not in any way comparable to stoking Russiaphobia, and as stated does not substantiate your claims to that effect.
Click to expand...
Other than the numerous coups I already pointed out, and the sponsorship of terrorism across much of Europe, as in Italy itself.

So, again, who are you under the impression the US is claiming to be “defending” Canada from if not Russia?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Other than the numerous coups I already pointed out, and the sponsorship of terrorism across much of Europe, as in Italy itself.
Click to expand...
You are describing, at worst, the actions of individual NATO members, not the actions of NATO the organization. Moreover, you have failed to demonstrate that a core goal was specifically to stop NATO members from leaving.

Again, you'll need to actually link proof rather than simply allege things.
Tigerace117 said:
So, again, who are you under the impression the US is claiming to be “defending” Canada from if not Russia?
Click to expand...
A singular instance of Trump talking about 'guaranteeing military security' does not necessarily presuppose a specific focus against Russia and it certainly does not, in any meaningful or credible way, stoke Russiaphobia in Canada. If you would like to provide evidence that there is a concerted attempt by the States to incite Russiaphobia in Canada, you are welcome to provide it, but this isn't that.
 
Surrealistik said:
You are describing, at worst, the actions of individual NATO members, not the actions of NATO the organization. Moreover, you have failed to demonstrate that a core goal was specifically to stop NATO members from leaving.

Again, you'll need to actually link proof rather than simply allege things.

A singular instance of Trump talking about 'guaranteeing military security' does not necessarily presuppose a specific focus against Russia and it certainly does not, in any meaningful or credible way, stoke Russiaphobia in Canada. If you would like to provide evidence that there is a concerted attempt by the States to incite Russiaphobia in Canada, you are welcome to provide it, but this isn't that.
Click to expand...
Except for the fact the establishment of the “stay behinds” was a NATO initiative in the first place. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

Still avoiding the question, I see. Who, exactly, do you think Trump was talking about if not Russia?

Stoking fear and hatred of Russia has been standard in the West since long before the Romanovs fell. Russia is a convenient boogeyman, especially since that blame can be used to try and crush criticism of failing such as racism and economic inequalities in the West....as happened over, and over, and over again.
 
j brown's body said:
Putin is sort of the anti-juggernaut, waging a mostly low key cyberwar against the west. But his imperial ambitions are real. Making him a threat to liberal democracies everywhere.
Click to expand...
Threat, perhaps but not by launching a military attack against Western Europe. Cyber-attacks against the exposed financial sector is quite possible and as devastating as a military attack- perhaps more so because it attacks across the board but leaves them alive and suffering. Our society is just one massive financial failure away from a social meltdown.
Now back when I was dressed funny for Uncle Sam, I was part of the 1st Bde., 3rd AD. The Fulda Gap 'plug'. We had a rumor that the old WWII Russian generals were dying off and deeply regretted not taking on the Allies at the end of WWII. They were going to attack to gain Europe for the Soviet Union. I see Putin in the same light; he is very ill and wants a victory to seal his fame as Russia has a habit of erasing the last leader from history. The Ukraine would have been a plum, but his military is a corrupt, poorly lead rabble. I don't see him doing better attacking a dozen other nations.... ✌️
 
Tigerace117 said:
Except for the fact the establishment of the “stay behinds” was a NATO initiative in the first place. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
Click to expand...
These 'stay behinds' had policies that go well beyond a commitment to NATO, so no, you have not proved your point, and in order to do that, you need to link to some kind of backing credible analysis or report (or better yet recorded communications straight from the source) that first confirms they were backed in order to upkeep NATO membership as a specific motive, and secondly, that NATO was culpable for such.
Tigerace117 said:
Still avoiding the question, I see. Who, exactly, do you think Trump was talking about if not Russia?
Click to expand...
We've had more issues with the Dutch frankly (or with China along subterfuge and political inference lines), than with Russia lately. A singular assurance of general military security (not something repeatedly brought up as you claim) doesn't necessarily insinuate Russia, and even if it did, it's a terrible way to go about fomenting Russiaphobia. This is a stretch of a stretch and your point on the matter hasn't even begun to be proven.
 
Last edited:
Surrealistik said:
These 'stay behinds' had policies that go well beyond a commitment to NATO, so no, you have not proved your point, and in order to do that, you need to link to some kind of backing credible analysis or report (or better yet recorded communications straight from the source) that first confirms they were backed in order to upkeep NATO membership as a specific motive, and secondly, that NATO was culpable for such.

We've had more issues with the Dutch frankly (or with China along subterfuge and political inference lines), than with Russia lately. A singular assurance of general military security (not something repeatedly brought up as you claim) doesn't necessarily insinuate Russia, and even if it did, it's a terrible way to go about fomenting Russiaphobia. This is a stretch of a stretch and your point on the matter hasn't even begun to be proven.
Click to expand...
A commitment to NATO to keep their countries “in line” as their actions demonstrate quite clearly.

This pretense that NATO wasn’t complicit in the actions of the groups they organized, armed, and supported to begin with is laughable.

They don’t need an efficient way, since fear and hatred of Russia has been such an essential way of supporting bigotry and injustice in the West for over a century, and therefore is far too vital for those with power to ever let die out.
 
Tigerace117 said:
A commitment to NATO to keep their countries “in line” as their actions demonstrate quite clearly.

This pretense that NATO wasn’t complicit in the actions of the groups they organized, armed, and supported to begin with is laughable.
Click to expand...
In otherwords, you cannot prove NATO's organizational culpability.

Tigerace117 said:
They don’t need an efficient way, since fear and hatred of Russia has been such an essential way of supporting bigotry and injustice in the West for over a century, and therefore is far too vital for those with power to ever let die out.
Click to expand...
Or rather, they're not even doing it in the first place. You asserted America is fomenting Russiaphobia in Canada, and as your 'evidence' you're pointing to a one off comment that doesn't even really implicate Russia, lol.
 
Rich2018 said:
Because you said in post#174:


To which I responded:
"Russia dominates Europe ?
Since when ?"

Do try to keep up.
Click to expand...

"Why can't Europe keep Europe from being dominated by Russia? "

Future tense

"Russia dominates Europe ?
Since when ?"

Present tense.

Do try to keep up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom