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NATO is a Bargain for the U.S.

Jack Hays said:
The US is a maritime trading nation. A stable international order serves our interests.
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Yes it does and as the good superpower and then the lone superpower running things globally was our job, and if we are going to run things we have a obligation to pay more than our share, and we made the choice to pay almost all of the cost because we are a generous people.

THings have changed. We are Broke and we are a failing superpower that has done very little good things with our military recently mainly because the political leadership that runs it has long sucked.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Yes it does and as the good superpower and then the lone superpower running things globally was our job, and if we are going to run things we have a obligation to pay more than our share, and we made the choice to pay almost all of the cost because we are a generous people.

THings have changed. We are Broke and we are a failing superpower that has done very little good things with our military recently mainly because the political leadership that runs it has long sucked.
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We are neither broke nor failing.
 
I read the article. It's a lot of fluffy language. At the end of the day, I don't see any NATO forces doing anything about Ukraine. They're yelling, they're screaming, and even pleading, but nothing.

If the argument is that Europe is paying it's way by virtue of having goods flow through the continent then I'm not impressed. And I found the paragraph of "Europe invests heavily in the European Union" just stupidly written. It's a piece that seems written for the explicit purpose of making Europeans feel good about their taker status.
 
reinoe said:
I read the article. It's a lot of fluffy language. At the end of the day, I don't see any NATO forces doing anything about Ukraine. They're yelling, they're screaming, and even pleading, but nothing.

If the argument is that Europe is paying it's way by virtue of having goods flow through the continent then I'm not impressed. And I found the paragraph of "Europe invests heavily in the European Union" just stupidly written. It's a piece that seems written for the explicit purpose of making Europeans feel good about their taker status.
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The author is with Princeton and The Brookings Institution, AKA a member of the elite hierarchy in good standing....these cats tend to not understand that America is failing under their leadership and also that they have no idea where the people are. AND they have developed a nasty habit for lies and deception.

These days everything the elite say needs to be take apart and examined for both meaning and truth. Often their long winded oratory is found to be lacking in both once examined. In this case once I ascertained that the premise of the piece is false I felt no need to waste more time on it.
 
I really don't want an up armed EU thank you very much.
I like the EU weak and easy to crush.
 
reinoe said:
I read the article. It's a lot of fluffy language. At the end of the day, I don't see any NATO forces doing anything about Ukraine. They're yelling, they're screaming, and even pleading, but nothing.

If the argument is that Europe is paying it's way by virtue of having goods flow through the continent then I'm not impressed. And I found the paragraph of "Europe invests heavily in the European Union" just stupidly written. It's a piece that seems written for the explicit purpose of making Europeans feel good about their taker status.
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No Western policy is more critical to keeping Russia at bay than Europe’s $9 billion in annual economic aid and debt relief to Ukraine, without which the country would long since have collapsed. This is about 10 times more than the United States provides. Europe has a similar though smaller assistance program for other countries in Russia’s neighborhood.
 
Jack Hays said:
No Western policy is more critical to keeping Russia at bay than Europe’s $9 billion in annual economic aid and debt relief to Ukraine, without which the country would long since have collapsed. This is about 10 times more than the United States provides. Europe has a similar though smaller assistance program for other countries in Russia’s neighborhood.
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With all of the corruption there that as is sure to be as effective as is pissing against at 30 mph wind.


Every time.


We are fvcking idiots, we NEVER learn.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
With all of the corruption there that as is sure to be as effective as is pissing against at 30 mph wind.


Every time.


We are fvcking idiots, we NEVER learn.
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Who's "we?" The Euros are the ones putting in the money.
 
Jack Hays said:
Who's "we?" The Euros are the ones putting in the money.
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And we put the CIA in to start an anti Moscow revolution when we knew that the place is corrupt from start to finish, and has only very rarely managed to get anything done right.

DUMB.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Pull the USA money out of the NATO and see how long the Euro's last.
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You do know that the missile shield bases in Europe are more about stopping ballistic missiles on their way to America than they are about protecting Europe I hope?
However "Portraying Europe as a continent of slackers makes for rousing election-year rhetoric" I suppose.
 
Jack Hays said:
The Know-Nothings want the U.S. out of NATO. That would be a bad deal.

President Obama and Donald Trump rarely agree on foreign policy. Yet they share one core belief: Our closest allies in Europe are exploiting U.S. military might.
Trump says NATO should be renegotiated: It is “obsolete” and “unfair . . . to the United States . . . because we pay a disproportionate share.”
Obama has criticized Trump’s stance. Yet for years the president has been conducting his own NATO renegotiation — including demanding European leadership in the Libyan operation and telling Prime Minister David Cameron that if Britain wants to maintain the Anglo-American “special relationship,” it must increase defense spending to the recommended NATO minimum of 2 percent of gross domestic product. His explanation? “Free riders aggravate me.”
But Trump and Obama are both wrong. Although more foreign policy spending is always welcome, Europe already assumes more than its fair share of the regional security burden. It invests not only in its military but also in crucial geo-economic and institutional instruments that the United States does not possess — but needs. In this respect, the United States freerides on European power. . . .



The United States is riding Europe’s superpower coattails


It’s a misperception that allies are exploiting U.S. military might.


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:lol:
you are the boss of Nato and you still complain ? if the president dislikes Nato ,he can walk out (if he can
 
Infinite Chaos said:
You do know that the missile shield bases in Europe are more about stopping ballistic missiles on their way to America than they are about protecting Europe I hope?
However "Portraying Europe as a continent of slackers makes for rousing election-year rhetoric" I suppose.
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Ahhhhh......the same missile defense systems with a proven track record of failure, and a potential enemy with thousands of decoy missiles.

Security blankets from "Toys R Us" might have been a better investment.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Ahhhhh......the same missile defense systems with a proven track record of failure, and a potential enemy with thousands of decoy missiles.

Security blankets from "Toys R Us" might have been a better investment.
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There may be a failed track record (I don't follow that side of the record) but nevertheless General Karakaev who heads the Russian ballistic missile program took it seriously enough to ask for and get proposed all new ballistic systems by 2020.

Anyway, in the context of the discussion - NATO and what the US gets from it - you still got to station patriot systems and similar as close to Russia as possible (thereby annoying the f**k out of them) which you wouldn't have if you weren't getting cheap territorial gains through us.
 
NATO is the single biggest reason for the renewal of the cold war between Russia and the West. The sooner its disbanded the sooner there will be peace.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
There may be a failed track record (I don't follow that side of the record) but nevertheless General Karakaev who heads the Russian ballistic missile program took it seriously enough to ask for and get proposed all new ballistic systems by 2020.

Anyway, in the context of the discussion - NATO and what the US gets from it - you still got to station patriot systems and similar as close to Russia as possible (thereby annoying the f**k out of them) which you wouldn't have if you weren't getting cheap territorial gains through us.
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A quick study of the MDA might get you up to speed, but stand by to be really pissed off if you do take the time. It is a shameful waste of money and should be exposed. Missiles have not stopped Russian mischief in the Ukraine, Crimea, or any wheres else.
 
RetiredUSN said:
~ Missiles have not stopped Russian mischief in the Ukraine, Crimea, or any wheres else.
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Isn't that the point I was making?

US presence in Europe is primarily for staging posts to elsewhere and the missile shield on European soil isn't about Europe anyway.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Isn't that the point I was making?

US presence in Europe is primarily for staging posts to elsewhere and the missile shield on European soil isn't about Europe anyway.
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The theory of the Pentagon is that it has a dual role of protection. (US and Europe)
 
RetiredUSN said:
The theory of the Pentagon is that it has a dual role of protection. (US and Europe)
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I like you: I hope you can hear my HUGE chuckle over here right now. I'll have a glass of whiskey as a toast to you tonight my friend. I'm sure you kept a serious look on your face as you typed that.
 
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