Nationalism

[Harry Guerrilla]

I really do agree with you on this.

I really wish America could be broken up, so the right wingers could have their own country and people who are left wing can have their own.

I also think its inevitably going to happen.

Seriously, having one group who wants x, another who wants y and telling them tough **** you have to live together is just beyond dumb.

Let them have their respective paradises.

I'll choose the least crappy.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I see nothing wrong with nationalism as long as you don't let it blind you to the truth. No nation is perfect, no culture is perfect, no one nation is the best at everything or has any sort of god-given legacy to do anything. Its just plots of lands that are defended with some sort of common history and (hopefully) a cultural mandate which drives people to do better for themselves, their culture, and their nation every single day.

Our biggest problem these days is that no-one can agree what doing better means.

Unfortunately, the sort of nationalism I tend to see coming out of conservative circles is a bit frightening since it seems to be more about loyalty and less about rational assessment of the nation's strengths and weaknesses and a desire to fix its problems (to make it better).

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Is nationalism a good thing or a bad thing on balance?

A good thing.

Globalism leads to Mexico invading the US and the US president running all over place apologizing for nothing and everything.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

I assume that you're referring to the US in this case? How is the US not founded on blood and land?

Read the Declaration of Independence.

The United States was founded on an ideal.

 

[reefedjib]

LOLZ! Sorry, I am sure you did not intend it as such, but that is a effective example of the dangers of nationalism. :mrgreen:

One would need an intimate knowledge of the constitutional arrangements of every society on earth, an understanding of how they operated in each of those societies, a concurrence of value systems in every society on earth, and a consensus that the US Constitution, and thereby US society, was pre-eminent amongst them; before one could make such a pronouncement in the expectation of being taken seriously.

Since we were the first, we have seen them all come and go. There are only a handful of democratic republics. Only some of those, if any, have a non-parliamentary government. Thos then with three branches of government.

We are clearly the best.

 

[Cephus]

Nationalism taken to extremes is certainly a bad thing as is blind nationalistic idealism. The thought that your nation must always be right, always be superior, simply because it exists and regardless of the evidence is little more than fanaticism, it's not a rational, intellectual position to take. There's nothing wrong with being proud of the accomplishments of one's nation, but to say that anything and everything, by definition, that said nation does must be right borders on delusion.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

I really do agree with you on this.

I really wish America could be broken up, so the right wingers could have their own country and people who are left wing can have their own.

I also think its inevitably going to happen.

Here's an idea: There's only one America. That's the Right Winger's Home.

You want to live in a Left Winger Paradise? Move to Cuba or Venezuela.

 

[Leo]

Since we were the first, we have seen them all come and go. There are only a handful of democratic republics. Only some of those, if any, have a non-parliamentary government. Thos then with three branches of government.

We are clearly the best.

You were clearly not the first democracy. Every first former knows about Athenian democracy. And what makes a republican democracy any more democratic than a parliamentary democracy? England had a form of parliamentary democracy long before the United States was even dreamt of.

But why is this discussion devolving around the USA? Surely the principles behind patriotism and nationalism are universal? Or are the delusions of superiority so blinding that people cannot see the world around them? :mrgreen:

 

[Regicollis]

I think there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. To me nationalism is the idea that your own nation is superior, while patriotism is simply caring about your national roots.

I think nationalism is an evil to be fought as it offers itself as a ready cause for and justification of all sorts of atrocities like wars, discrimination and chauvinism.

Patriotism on the other hand allows you to protect and care about your own roots which I think is a good thing to do. Knowledge your own culture and history gives you a sense of identity which is very conductive of well-being.

 

[ZGM]

Is nationalism a good thing or a bad thing on balance?

I think it is a very handy sentiment with which to induce people (who might otherwise not be so inclined) to go to war.

I think it can also be an effective motivator in competitive international sporting events.

I think it can also be a motivator in building a competitive society, and thereby perhaps accelerating the growth of infrastructure and technology in an effort to outstrip other societies.

But I think it can also lead to a false sense of superiority, arrogance, racism, and in its more extreme forms, a dehumanising of other national groups.

So I have to be honest and say I think it is a negative sentiment on balance. But I am interested to learn what others here think about nationalism.

(I posted this at another place and got some very interesting responses. )

Well, Leo I think you're right. When a company is nationalized, they only distribute their products and services to the country they're located in. Weapons are a pretty good example.

 

[AgentM]

Read the Declaration of Independence.

The United States was founded on an ideal.

Maybe, but there was plenty of blood and land involved in trying to implement those ideals...just sayin'.

 

[spud_meister]

over-all i'd say nationalism is a good thing, i celebrate when we thrash the poms at cricket, get drunk on Australia day, and call people mate.

it goes bad when you tie race into nationalism, like early Australia, with the white australia policy, or pre civil rights movement america.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Here's an idea: There's only one America. That's the Right Winger's Home.

Wrong, it is the home to anyone who is a citizen, not just those of a certain ideology.

You want to live in a Left Winger Paradise? Move to Cuba or Venezuela.

Why Cuba or Venezuela when Finland or Germany is so much nicer? :lol:

 

[Boo Radley]

It depends entirely on what your nation is founded upon. If you are an Old World nation or (especially) a "splinter" nation then Nationalism can be very bad indeed.

But if your nation is founded not upon blood and land, but on an ideology; then Nationalism is as good or as bad as that ideology is.

I disagree. Nationalism often blinds one to the point of not being able to know if the nation's ideology is good or bad. Often the blind nationalist explains away the evil his nation does.

 

[liblady]

Nationalism to me is something mostly positive, people should be proud of their country and supportive of it and its leader's even if they may personally disagree with them from time to time. Viewing oneself as part of a greater whole and in a way as "team" is healthy and admirable in my opinion.

Of course all this can be taken too far.

wouldn't that depend upon your leaders and their ideals, and your country's history? north korea, for example, isn't a "greater whole".....

 

[AgentM]

I disagree. Nationalism often blinds one to the point of not being able to know if the nation's ideology is good or bad. Often the blind nationalist explains away the evil his nation does.

I agree, and I think cpwill's statement is a good example of nationalism.

 

[Z3n]

Is nationalism a good thing or a bad thing on balance?

I think it is a very handy sentiment with which to induce people (who might otherwise not be so inclined) to go to war.

I think it can also be an effective motivator in competitive international sporting events.

I think it can also be a motivator in building a competitive society, and thereby perhaps accelerating the growth of infrastructure and technology in an effort to outstrip other societies.

But I think it can also lead to a false sense of superiority, arrogance, racism, and in its more extreme forms, a dehumanising of other national groups.

So I have to be honest and say I think it is a negative sentiment on balance. But I am interested to learn what others here think about nationalism.

(I posted this at another place and got some very interesting responses. )

Nationalism, on my opinion, is nothing more than an idealistic rationalization for militarism and aggression.----Albert Einstein

You can have pride in an identity and a pride in your heritage, but not to the point of culturalistic prejudices that result in militarism.

 

[AgentM]

Nationalism, on my opinion, is nothing more than an idealistic rationalization for militarism and aggression.----Albert Einstein

You can have pride in an identity and a pride in your heritage, but not to the point of culturalistic prejudices that result in militarism.

Yeah, I'm proud of my country and my ancestry, that doesn't mean that I think my people are better than everyone else.