My true colors.

[Jerry]

Responding to a post from Satan in the garden? and taking it here so as not to hijack that thread......

So you think the whole "thou shall not kill" was meant to be thou shall only kill legally or when the government permits it? With Roe vs Wade did God suddenly start supporting abortion?

"...........I’m just tired of men treating women like disposable people and women neglecting responsibility and dignity. If abortion weren’t being abused today I doubt that I would have much if any problem with it at all."

I'm going to do something that the vast majority of pro lifers don't understand about themselves, or don't have the balls, to do. I'm going to show you my true colors.

My last bit there?....about how men treat women and how women act?....that's my parents, how they acted toward each other, how they treated themselves, how my mother disregarded me and my sisters in favor of her own self interests (which reflects exactly many pro choice arguments) when she left our home when I was 5, how my dad treated my mother....etc.

The mainstream pro choice movement is all about women acting exactly as my mother did, and rendering women to the level that my dad treated my mother. I so passionately abhor those actions that I can not concede an abortion front while fascist feminizes and social/communists reinforce women acting in a similar way.

Even when all logic is absent of a pro life stance, I am literally not physically capable of typing a concession into a post, because to do so is to permit, condone and endorse they very behavior that so fractured and destroyed my family.

 

[talloulou]

Responding to a post from Satan in the garden? and taking it here so as not to hijack that thread......

I'm going to do something that the vast majority of pro lifers don't understand about themselves, or don't have the balls, to do. I'm going to show you my true colors.

My last bit there?....about how men treat women and how women act?....that's my parents, how they acted toward each other, how they treated themselves, how my mother disregarded me and my sisters in favor of her own self interests (which reflects exactly many pro choice arguments) when she left our home when I was 5, how my dad treated my mother....etc.

The mainstream pro choice movement is all about women acting exactly as my mother did, and rendering women to the level that my dad treated my mother. I so passionately abhor those actions that I can not concede an abortion front while fascist feminizes and social/communists reinforce women acting in a similar way.

Even when all logic is absent of a pro life stance, I am literally not physically capable of typing a concession into a post, because to do so is to permit, condone and endorse they very behavior that so fractured and destroyed my family.

I hear you Jerry. For all the arguments prochoicers give for me it all boils down to you just don't pay a dr to rip your fricken baby from the womb because the baby isn't "convenient" right now. It's dishonorable and cowardly. To me it's a selfish disgusting mentality and many of the arguments prochoicers use can in fact be used to justify treating even born children like crap ie....underdeveloped, low cognitive ability, not independent, ect. And I too have said many times that if the abortion numbers were reduced drastically so that basically it was only women whose health was in danger, rape cases, ect...then I wouldn't be as concerned. But the mentality the prochoice movement is selling is just so damn distasteful to me and the language they adopt in order to justify their selfish....the only one who matters is me.....mentality basically sickens me to the core. And it is the same exact mentality that has couples breakin up at the drop of a hat and completely turning their back on "Family First" values.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I'm going to do something that the vast majority of pro lifers don't understand about themselves, or don't have the balls, to do. I'm going to show you my true colors.

*applauds* Our disagreement on the issue itself aside, this is something that I wish more folk had the courage-- or the insight-- to do.

Reckon that I am the very last person you would expect support from, but I understand exactly where you are coming from-- and that is why so many of the liberal pro-choice arguments bother me. They don't concern themselves with parental responsibility at all, so they cannot define what makes a difference between a five-month fetus and a five-month-old.

Even when all logic is absent of a pro life stance, I am literally not physically capable of typing a concession into a post, because to do so is to permit, condone and endorse they very behavior that so fractured and destroyed my family.

Leaving aside abortion for the moment-- since I have neither hope nor intent of changing your mind, especially on this thread-- I must urge you to learn to see the difference between a moral position and the people that hold it, and the arguments used to support it.

Sometimes, you have to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with blackguards because you know that they're right-- even if they themselves do not understand why.

 

[Independent Patriot]

I have to agree with you here Jerry. I think if more people just took responsibility the abortion issue would be discussed and debated about by only the far leaning fringe groups.

 

[Enola/Alone]

I have to agree with you here Jerry. I think if more people just took responsibility the abortion issue would be discussed and debated about by only the far leaning fringe groups.

What do you mean?

 

[Enola/Alone]

The mainstream pro choice movement is all about women acting exactly as my mother did, and rendering women to the level that my dad treated my mother. I so passionately abhor those actions that I can not concede an abortion front while fascist feminizes and social/communists reinforce women acting in a similar way.

I'm not trying to belittle what you went through, but there's a difference between walking out on a child that knows and loves you, and is going to miss you, and aborting a non-sentient fetus, at least in my eyes. I don't see the two on the same level, but it must have taken guts to share that with us, so thanks for explaining your motivations on the subject.

 

[talloulou]

What do you mean?

I can't speak for independent but I would agree with his statement wholeheartedly. For me it means that the abortion numbers are so ridiculously high that you can't help but believe anything except that many many people are using it as a form of birth control. If people in general were more responsible the abortion numbers would be reduced. If the numbers of abortions were not so ridiculous and most people who had them had them for legitimate respectable reasons with only very small numbers having abortions for convenience then I for one wouldn't concern myself as much with the issue. As it is the abortion numbers represent, to me, a society that devalues life and responsibility. In fact, in my case, even if the prochoice movement just adjusted the language they use to justify abortion on demand I wouldn't be as concerned and I honestly believe that alone would bring the abortion numbers down. Regardless of why it is done abortion is sad and it should be sad. Now there are many reasons why one could justify why the sad choice to abort is the best choice but it still is a sad choice and the decision to end a life should be discussed in a respectful manner that dignifies human life. Instead the prochoice movement has adopted a callous attitude that is very hard to swallow.

 

[talloulou]

I'm not trying to belittle what you went through, but there's a difference between walking out on a child that knows and loves you, and is going to miss you, and aborting a non-sentient fetus, at least in my eyes. I don't see the two on the same level, but it must have taken guts to share that with us, so thanks for explaining your motivations on the subject.

To me the major difference is that when you walk away from a born child that child is left to live with the feeling of abandoment. The aborted life however is no longer around to live or make you feel guilty about the abandonment. When you walk away from a child someone else has to step in and take responsibility where you failed to. With an abortion....problem solved. I personally would rather be abandoned vs killed.

 

[Enola/Alone]

I can't speak for independent but I would agree with his statement wholeheartedly. For me it means that the abortion numbers are so ridiculously high that you can't help but believe anything except that many many people are using it as a form of birth control.

Do you have any stasts on that? I know it does happen, I've seen friends use it in this manner, but it just doesn't make sense to me that many people would choose a medical/chemical procedure like abortion above a contraceptive.

If people in general were more responsible the abortion numbers would be reduced. If the numbers of abortions were not so ridiculous and most people who had them had them for legitimate respectable reasons with only very small numbers having abortions for convenience then I for one wouldn't concern myself as much with the issue.

How far would the abortion numbers need to fall for you not to consider them "ridiculous"? What's a legitimate reason in your mind? And what do you mean by "convience abortions" - those performed on mental/emotional health grounds?

As it is the abortion numbers represent, to me, a society that devalues life and responsibility.

I just see them as evidence of a society that respects a woman's right to control her body, although they do raise the question, "Why are these all taking place? Are contraceptives failing that much? Are women/men not using them correctly, or at all?" I'd like to see the numbers fall because abortions are medical/chemical procedures that carry risks for the womna involved, but not by putting restrcitions on abortion(I'm staunchly pro-choice) but by making contraceptives more widely avaliable and by improving sex ed.

In fact, in my case, even if the prochoice movement just adjusted the language they use to justify abortion on demand I wouldn't be as concerned and I honestly believe that alone would bring the abortion numbers down.

What do you mean?

Regardless of why it is done abortion is sad and it should be sad. Now there are many reasons why one could justify why the sad choice to abort is the best choice but it still is a sad choice and the decision to end a life should be discussed in a respectful manner that dignifies human life. Instead the prochoice movement has adopted a callous attitude that is very hard to swallow.

Again, what "callous attitude" are you talking about?

 

[Enola/Alone]

To me the major difference is that when you walk away from a born child that child is left to live with the feeling of abandoment. The aborted life however is no longer around to live or make you feel guilty about the abandonment. When you walk away from a child someone else has to step in and take responsibility where you failed to. With an abortion....problem solved. I personally would rather be abandoned vs killed.

But the born abondoned child can feel lonely, abondoned, can wonder "Why did this happen? Was I not good enough? Does no-one love me?", whereas the fetus has no concept of life or death or love or abondonemnt, it's not sentient. If you were abandoned, you would be upset, whereas if you were aborted, you wouldn't be capable of understanding death enough to be afraid or regretful or wonder what might have been. For me, that's why abandonement is the greater evil.

 

[talloulou]

Do you have any stasts on that? I know it does happen, I've seen friends use it in this manner, but it just doesn't make sense to me that many people would choose a medical/chemical procedure like abortion above a contraceptive.

Here's the thing most oral contraceptives and the shots women can get are 90+% effective at preventing pregnancy when used properly. Condoms break. Thus women having sex, in my opinion, should be on birth control or prepared to accept a pregnancy. That, to me, would be "responsible." If the only women getting abortions due to birth control failure were those using the pill the numbers would be alot lower. Also I don't believe you can rely on stats that suggest, "This % of women reporting having abortions after birth control failed...." because the fact of the matter is there is no way of proving that they didn't just lie out of guilt and claim they were using birth control. We have come along way in the birth control area and there is simply no reason for there to be that many "unwanted" pregnancies if women act responsibly.

The fact that you've seen friends use abortion as "birth control" and the fact that I know people who have done the same means women are not acting responsibly.

How far would the abortion numbers need to fall for you not to consider them "ridiculous"? What's a legitimate reason in your mind? And what do you mean by "convience abortions" - those performed on mental/emotional health grounds?

The numbers, in my opinion, need to come way down. Legitimate reasons in mind are women who have cancer, diabetes, or any other physical problem that would be further agitated by pregnancy. As far as mental health I think women who have severe legitimate mental health problems and those on medication that can not be taken during pregnancy have solid reasons for choosing abortion. However mental turmoil as in..."I don't want to be pregnant" doesn't in my opinion qualify as a true mental health issue.

I just see them as evidence of a society that respects a woman's right to control her body

People don't really control their bodies. This is the right the prochoice movement is built on but it's not actually a right at all. You don't control if your body gets cancer or an illness. You can attempt to live a healthy lifestyle thus increasing your chances of not getting sick but that's not a guarantee. You can attempt to have safe responsible sex and chances are you won't get pregnant or contract an STD but there are no guarantees with that either. We don't control our bodies we work to keep them as healthy as we can and hope for the best. Abortion takes the life of another. To me that is controlling the body and life of someone else and unless there is a damn good reason for it we shouldn't do that.

, although they do raise the question, "Why are these all taking place? Are contraceptives failing that much? Are women/men not using them correctly, or at all?"

I believe abortion provides an easy solution to unwanted pregnancy thus there is not as much risk for women when it comes to engaging in unsafe or unprotected sex. Women are more apt to have sex more casually and with partners that won't necessarily make great fathers. Now I'm not suggesting women shouldn't have sex, or that they shouldn't have tons of sex with whoever they want but I am suggesting that in life there are consequences. The fact that abortion has removed one of the biggest consequences of sex, parenthood, means that more women are acting in a way that they wouldn't have acted decades ago when they didn't have the same..."Get out of jail free card"....that is available today with abortion.

I'd like to see the numbers fall because abortions are medical/chemical procedures that carry risks for the womna involved, but not by putting restrcitions on abortion(I'm staunchly pro-choice) but by making contraceptives more widely avaliable and by improving sex ed.

I'd like to see better and more education sex ed as well. I'd also like to see cheaper birth control. Planned parenthood runs at a profit and it is my opinion that they could do more than they currently do to make birth control more widely and cheaply available. As it is they currently use a large portion of their money to continue to fight for abortion.

What do you mean?

If abortion was seen as the taking and destroying of a life people would be less inclined to have one. However we are bringing up girls today to believe that abortion isn't really taking a life and the thing being killed during an abortion is a thing...a non-person, non-being, undeveloped clump of cells similar to cancer or any other tissue that would be removed from your body. I have heard abortion compared to an appendectomy. The rhetoric is that it is like any other surgery used to treat a condition. A women has as much right to abortion as a man who is having surgery to treat lung cancer. I have heard the unborn called parasitic. The list goes on and on. Even when arguing the case for later pregnancies where a fetus is aborted many prochoicers will say things that I just can't stomach.

The gestational age of viability has gotten much younger since the time when Roe vs Wade was introduced. To some prochoicers this matters...to most it does not. I have seen a prochoicer, jfuh, on this very site claim the earliest preemie to survive actually died of underdevelopment. I believed him and went to research it. Come to find out he lied. Rather than being ashamed of his lie he claimed he was joking. That's just total BS and why I find so much of the prochoice movement intolerable.

Again, what "callous attitude" are you talking about?

Abortion does not kill a person or a being. It's a clump of tissue. It doesn't look human. It doesn't have cognitive ability. It's a parasite. I have a right to my body. I don't support ripping babies from the womb myself but it's cool if others do it. I don't like late term abortions but I don't want any restrictions on the time period when abortion can be done. Claiming the unborn are "mere animals" similar to rats or flies or mosquitos. Claiming newborns aren't human beings nor are the disabled or the old and senile. The prochoice movement embraces some of the most hateful inhumane rhetoric I have ever seen all in the name of feminism and some illusional supposed "right" that women have to control their bodies.

 

[talloulou]

But the born abondoned child can feel lonely, abondoned, can wonder "Why did this happen? Was I not good enough?

Yes and all of those feeling suck but they can be overcome and people can get on with their lives despite the fact that their biological parents were disgusting.

the fetus has no concept of life or death or love or abondonemnt, it's not sentient. If you were abandoned, you would be upset, whereas if you were aborted, you wouldn't be capable of understanding death enough to be afraid or regretful or wonder what might have been. For me, that's why abandonement is the greater evil.

This argument is the same as saying I think I can judge whether or not this human would choose suicide. Why not just go out and kill everyone you think has a crap life? There are people who off themselves but most people overcome and have productive lives despite the cards they were dealt. To make any claim that abortion is merciful on the grounds that the biological parents don't want a child is in my opinion outrageous. There are tons of people walking the earth who were abandoned by fathers or mothers and they have wonderful lives.

 

[Enola/Alone]

Here's the thing most oral contraceptives and the shots women can get are 90+% effective at preventing pregnancy when used properly.

That's the thing though, they're aren't always used properly. It's easy to forget a Pill not through irresponsibility but through humna error, and I don't believe women should be forced to carry unwnated pregnancies because of this.

Condoms break. Thus women having sex, in my opinion, should be on birth control or prepared to accept a pregnancy.

And what if the birth control fails?

That, to me, would be "responsible."If the only women getting abortions due to birth control failure were those using the pill the numbers would be alot lower. Also I don't believe you can rely on stats that suggest, "This % of women reporting having abortions after birth control failed...." because the fact of the matter is there is no way of proving that they didn't just lie out of guilt and claim they were using birth control. We have come along way in the birth control area and there is simply no reason for there to be that many "unwanted" pregnancies if women act responsibly.

The fact that you've seen friends use abortion as "birth control" and the fact that I know people who have done the same means women are not acting responsibly.

I think it means a minority are acting irresponisbility, I see no proof it's a wide spread problem.

If abortion was seen as the taking and destroying of a life people would be less inclined to have one. However we are bringing up girls today to believe that abortion isn't really taking a life and the thing being killed during an abortion is a thing...a non-person,

Personhood is a philosophical concept and therefore, because it can't be proved one way or the other, someone who says the fetus is a non-person isn't lying anymor than you are. It's just about your opinion on the matter.

non-being,

As above.

undeveloped clump of cells similar to cancer or any other tissue that would be removed from your body. I have heard abortion compared to an appendectomy. The rhetoric is that it is like any other surgery used to treat a condition. A women has as much right to abortion as a man who is having surgery to treat lung cancer.

Okay, personally, I endorse the last statement. Put simply, if there's something going on in your body you don't like, you should be able to remedy that.

I have heard the unborn called parasitic.

Biologically, it is.

The list goes on and on. Even when arguing the case for later pregnancies where a fetus is aborted many prochoicers will say things that I just can't stomach.

The gestational age of viability has gotten much younger since the time when Roe vs Wade was introduced. To some prochoicers this matters...to most it does not.

I don't think it's any more acceptable to force a woman to carry an unwanted prgnancy just because she's later in gestation, and since the woman is my primary concern, fetal viability comes second to me.

I have seen a prochoicer, jfuh, on this very site claim the earliest preemie to survive actually died of underdevelopment. I believed him and went to research it. Come to find out he lied. Rather than being ashamed of his lie he claimed he was joking. That's just total BS and why I find so much of the prochoice movement intolerable.

Is it really fair to malign an entire movemet based on a few bad incidences?

People don't really control their bodies. This is the right the prochoice movement is built on but it's not actually a right at all. You don't control if your body gets cancer or an illness. You can attempt to live a healthy lifestyle thus increasing your chances of not getting sick but that's not a guarantee. You can attempt to have safe responsible sex and chances are you won't get pregnant or contract an STD but there are no guarantees with that either. We don't control our bodies we work to keep them as healthy as we can and hope for the best.

You may not be able to stop undesirable things from occuring in your body, but once they're there, you do have the right to do something about it.

Abortion takes the life of another. To me that is controlling the body and life of someone else and unless there is a damn good reason for it we shouldn't do that.

I believe that while you're in someone else's body, while you lack sentience and then don't, their wishes take precedent.

I believe abortion provides an easy solution to unwanted pregnancy thus there is not as much risk for women when it comes to engaging in unsafe or unprotected sex. Women are more apt to have sex more casually and with partners that won't necessarily make great fathers. Now I'm not suggesting women shouldn't have sex, or that they shouldn't have tons of sex with whoever they want but I am suggesting that in life there are consequences. The fact that abortion has removed one of the biggest consequences of sex, parenthood, means that more women are acting in a way that they wouldn't have acted decades ago when they didn't have the same..."Get out of jail free card"....that is available today with abortion.

Abortion is hardly an "easy solution"- it's a medical procedure that in some cases you have to pay for out of your own pocket, and I really fail to see how any rational woman could be willing to leave herself open to the risk of falling pregnant on a regular basis. I really don't children should be treated as "consequences", unless we want children being brought up by seriously bitter resentful mothers. And with regards to having sex "casually"- do you have an ideological problem with this, or is it okay if the people in question use protection?

I'd like to see better and more education sex ed as well. I'd also like to see cheaper birth control. Planned parenthood runs at a profit and it is my opinion that they could do more than they currently do to make birth control more widely and cheaply available.

Why should it just be Planned Parenthood's responsivility? Your government, if it really wants to reduce abortions, should be giving it outfree of charge.

As it is they currently use a large portion of their money to continue to fight for abortion.

They support the whole range of reproductive freedom, so this makes sense.

Abortion does not kill a person or a being.

In my opinion, and in the opinions of many others, it's not. There's no way to "prove" personhood as it's a philosopical thing, and I don't see how this makes us callous.

It's a clump of tissue.

That's not exactly the best way of putting it.

It doesn't look human.

For quite a while, it doesn't.

It doesn't have cognitive ability.

Idon't believe there's any proof fetuses have cognitive abilities.

It's a parasite.

It's not a parasite, but it does have a parasitic relationship with it's mother.

I have a right to my body.

I think this is a basic human right.

I don't support ripping babies from the womb myself but it's cool if others do it. I don't like late term abortions but I don't want any restrictions on the time period when abortion can be done.

These from people who don't support pushing their morality on others with regards to something as personal as reproductive health.

Claiming the unborn are "mere animals" similar to rats or flies or mosquitos. Claiming newborns aren't human beings nor are the disabled or the old and senile.

I disagree with this, obviously.

The prochoice movement embraces some of the most hateful inhumane rhetoric I have ever seen all in the name of feminism and some illusional supposed "right" that women have to control their bodies.

The pro-life side isn't exactly innocent with regards to this. You have a militant wing just like we do. Both sides have bad apples.

 

[Enola/Alone]

Yes and all of those feeling suck but they can be overcome and people can get on with their lives despite the fact that their biological parents were disgusting.

Agreed.

This argument is the same as saying I think I can judge whether or not this human would choose suicide. Why not just go out and kill everyone you think has a crap life?

Because they have a right to life and are sentient human beings not reliant on anyone else's body for survival.

There are people who off themselves but most people overcome and have productive lives despite the cards they were dealt. To make any claim that abortion is merciful on the grounds that the biological parents don't want a child is in my opinion outrageous. There are tons of people walking the earth who were abandoned by fathers or mothers and they have wonderful lives.

And many who go to pieces as a result of their abandonment. A fetus can't feel guilt or rejection or sadness, a born child can, and I genuinely do feel that aboting a fetus isn't as cruel as walking out on a living child who loves you.

 

[Jerry]

Wow, I really appreciate everyone's support on this thread. I honestly expected to be attacked right off the bat.

I don't mean to like myself to the unborn. I mean to point to an "all-about-me" attitude, and how this attitude, in my experience, is a societal destructive behavior.

I see this attitude in the gay marriage debate as well. I am not necessarily opposed to gay marriage per se, I am opposed to everyone only looking out for themselves, giving no consideration for the unintended consequences of their actions. For example, in homosexual's grab for "rights", their established use of the 14th. amendment to gain a right to marry will ultimately, not immediately, dissolve every defining requirement of marriage. The 14th. will reduces marriage to a "strictly legal contract", and though "a strictly legal contract" is all the government can recognize marriage as, I do not believe that the existence of polygamy variants is beneficial to society. I believe that a lack of a sense of "normalcy" would place society in a state of flux, and that this state of flux is a great weakness and glowing invitation to those who would do us harm.

But enough about gay marriage.

The "my body, my choice" mantra is also short sided and selfish. In short, when a woman acts in a promiscuous, sluty manner, she is training men to treat women like sex objects. These men are not likely to stick around in a family, and the divorce rate goes up, giving the gay marriage folks even more to argue with.

Girls who are raised without a Father Archetype in these broken homes seek a father figure in their boyfriends. Not directly seeing their boyfriend as a father, but as the man that has been missing in their lives, they tend to *ahem* give themselves away....which only further trains men to treat women like sex objects, giving feminists even more ammo.

Boys who are raised with out a Father Archetype either "hyper masculine" in an attempt to become a man, or are feminized by the lack of a masculine role model. Not having a proper role model to teach them how to treat women (you know, with respect), they tend to go with the popular flow and seek to feel like a man through their sexual activities.

This is where I come from: I did not have a Mother Archetype. As a result of my mother's *quote* "It's my life, I'm board, I'm leaving" attitude, I now fight a daily demon casting doubt on my wife’s loyalty. I fear that she will either leave me and my boys or cheat on me. So far I have been able to keep emotions in check, but there have been times.....

I realize that this does not translate directly into abortion, but I see a commonality in the mindset, actions and attitude between my mother and the mainstream pro choice crowd.

I'm not sure how this fits in, but I feel it's somehow relevant: My concern on sex education in school. Giving children age appropriate information is fine, but I highly doubt that how-to sex ed. is appropriate universally, and I think that that decision should be left to the parents.

You see, I am one of those kids who found his dad's porno (no, not of him.....eeeewww) at a young age. I feel that this exacerbated my male instinct of promiscuity and greatly amplified my seeing women as sex objects. I confess, every single time I see an attractive woman my very first thought is of sex. Every-single-time (sorry Enola....nice avatar....)

I know that that is wrong and it is one of the reasons I follow the Christian path. The Christian path is one of repentance, redemption and correction; and though I know where my demons come, I realize that it is now my responsibility to correct myself.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit rambling. I've never tried to put these things to words before.

 

[talloulou]

That's the thing though, they're aren't always used properly. It's easy to forget a Pill not through irresponsibility but through humna error, and I don't believe women should be forced to carry unwnated pregnancies because of this.

Well I think using it properly should become a priority especially if that prevents the killing of a created human organism.

And what if the birth control fails?

If the majority of people were acting responsibly then the numbers for failure would be way less than the current abortion numbers.

Personhood is a philosophical concept and therefore, because it can't be proved one way or the other, someone who says the fetus is a non-person isn't lying anymor than you are. It's just about your opinion on the matter.

Personhood is a legal and political concept to argue that a human organism isn't a person or being is in my opinion weak and an argument based on semantics and manipulation of the english language.

Biologically, it is.

No it's not but thanks for proving my point. Do you care to point to any medical or scientific resources that point to a healthy pregnancy involving a healthy human organism where the drs and scientists use the terms parasite or parasitic? Good luck with that.

I don't think it's any more acceptable to force a woman to carry an unwanted prgnancy just because she's later in gestation, and since the woman is my primary concern, fetal viability comes second to me.

Right....see I embrace the tatoo you are contemplating. You know the wiccan one you mentioned about harm no one. I don't believe in one person killing another human for the sake of convenience and in cases where the fetus is viable it is particularly disgusting to me.

Is it really fair to malign an entire movemet based on a few bad incidences?

It's not a few it's many as you have shown with your response.

Abortion is hardly an "easy solution"

When compared to a lifetime practicing sexual responsibility and parenthood for 18 years abortion is an easy solution....thus the high numbers.

Why should it just be Planned Parenthood's responsivility? Your government, if it really wants to reduce abortions, should be giving it outfree of charge.

The government gives planned parenthood money. But I agree the government could do more as well. My point was that my country's biggest abortion provider has no incentive to reduce the numbers of abortions. They are a "profit" maker.

In my opinion, and in the opinions of many others, it's not. There's no way to "prove" personhood as it's a philosopical thing, and I don't see how this makes us callous.

It's a human at an early stage of development and by aborting you are killing it. Anything other than that is politics and semantics so have at it....

For quite a while, it doesn't.

A human organism at the embryonic or fetal stage looks exactly like a human organism looks at that stage. Just as a 20 year old human organism looks like a 20 year old while a 90 year old has the 90 yr old look.

Idon't believe there's any proof fetuses have cognitive abilities.

So what? I meet people all the time and I question their cognitive abilities.

It's not a parasite, but it does have a parasitic relationship with it's mother.

That is how humans gestate. The new human organism grows in it's mothers womb. Calling it a parasite while disgusting doesn't take away from what it actually is....a developing human. My 5 year old daughter is a developing human.

These from people who don't support pushing their morality on others with regards to something as personal as reproductive health.

Yeah that's great. Nice soundbite. Only see when it comes to one human killing another I have no qualms about speaking out or pushing my belief that it is wrong.

 

[talloulou]

And many who go to pieces as a result of their abandonment. A fetus can't feel guilt or rejection or sadness, a born child can, and I genuinely do feel that aboting a fetus isn't as cruel as walking out on a living child who loves you.

Why don't you ask an adopted person if they would have preferred their biological mother acted more mercifully and had them killed. :rofl They'll probably be offended but it'll show you how wrong your argument is.

 

[Enola/Alone]

Why don't you ask an adopted person if they would have preferred their biological mother acted more mercifully and had them killed. :rofl They'll probably be offended but it'll show you how wrong your argument is.

I'm not talking about whether adopted children would rather have been aborted I'm talking about the fact that an aborted fetus does not have the capability to suffer emotional trauma whereas a living child does. And differeing from you in opinion does not make me "wrong".

 

[tecoyah]

Why don't you ask an adopted person if they would have preferred their biological mother acted more mercifully and had them killed. :rofl They'll probably be offended but it'll show you how wrong your argument is.

What exactly....would we accomplish by asking this question? As the individual in question would be making the same judgement call you are, and everyone else is. No One Knows for sure if some soul is injected into an egg with the sperm, No One Knows. Instead we are left to use the two extremes as goalposts in this debate. One says Thes cells are Human , and to kill a Human is Murder. The other says these cells are...Cells, and cannot be Human for quite some time.
Because we must seemingly go to extremes....our arguments inevitable go to these same extremes, and end in the stale mate of disageement. What would happen if someday, people decided to actually think about what the other side thinks. What would happen if maybe....we all dropped our religious/scientific Dogma and seriously considered what this issue means.


It comes down to freedom people.

If the society you live in places something into the culture....and the population is split as to the Good/Bad of it all...by default, we look to law. Hell...thats the reason we HAVE laws.

There are Two levels of Law in play here:

1) constitutional (seperation of church and state)

Regardless of how its said, most oppsition to the Choice side comes from religion, to deny this is to lose all credibility. There are othere reasons but, the vast majority are Scripturally based.

2) federal (supreme court descisions)

Though mostly skirted by the courts, they have come down on the side of freedom of choice, if only for political reasons, it is still the reality.

We can all continue in the endless loop of Pseudo Debate on this issue, and keep saying the same damn thing over and over and over and.....you get the point. Or people can realize there MUST be compromise for the discussion to go forward. Otherwise we all yell to hear ourselves speak.....and personally, I dont like my phone voice.

 

[Enola/Alone]

Well I think using it properly should become a priority especially if that prevents the killing of a created human organism.

Obviously, but human error should not be punished with forced gestation.

If the majority of people were acting responsibly then the numbers for failure would be way less than the current abortion numbers.

I really don't think you can prove abortion is caused by "irresponsibility".

Personhood is a legal and political concept to argue that a human organism isn't a person or being is in my opinion weak and an argument based on semantics and manipulation of the english language.

And in my opinion, it's an important query and is integral to both the pro-choice and pro-life ideals.

No it's not

Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate returnhttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/parasitic

Number 3 describes fetuses biological relationship with the mother, it depends on her for survival but contributes nothing to do her. I'm not saying that makes it a parasite, I'm saying biologically, the relationship is parasitic.

Right....see I embrace the tatoo you are contemplating. You know the wiccan one you mentioned about harm no one. I don't believe in one person killing another human for the sake of convenience and in cases where the fetus is viable it is particularly disgusting to me.

Your support for forced gestation is equally repugnant to me, and I believe this does more herm than abortion could ever do.

It's not a few it's many as you have shown with your response.

Well, why don't you tell me exactly what you think I have "shown..."

When compared to a lifetime practicing sexual responsibility and parenthood for 18 years abortion is an easy solution....thus the high numbers.

That depends on the person. If you want kids, child-rearing is the easy option. If you don't, abortion is.

The government gives planned parenthood money. But I agree the government could do more as well. My point was that my country's biggest abortion provider has no incentive to reduce the numbers of abortions. They are a "profit" maker.

It's a human at an early stage of development and by aborting you are killing it. Anything other than that is politics and semantics so have at it....

Making the distinction between a living human person with rights, and a fetus, is not semantical, it's the crux of this whole deabte.

A human organism at the embryonic or fetal stage looks exactly like a human organism looks at that stage. Just as a 20 year old human organism looks like a 20 year old while a 90 year old has the 90 yr old look.

True, but what a zygote/embryo/fetus looks like early on in gestation bears little resemblance to what most of us would see as human.

So what? I meet people all the time and I question their cognitive abilities.

Good for you, but I was pointing out that until fetal cognition is proved, claiming fetuses don't have cognitive abilities is not callous.

That is how humans gestate. The new human organism grows in it's mothers womb. Calling it a parasite while disgusting doesn't take away from what it actually is....a developing human.

Developing in a parasitic manner inside it's mothers body. I'm not calling it a parasite, just pointing out a fact.

My 5 year old daughter is a developing human.

Who isn't biologically dependant on another human being's body, unlike a fetus.

Yeah that's great. Nice soundbite. Only see when it comes to one human killing another I have no qualms about speaking out or pushing my belief that it is wrong.

I really don't see what right you have to attempt to control what goes on inside a woman's uterus, but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[talloulou]

What exactly....would we accomplish by asking this question? As the individual in question would be making the same judgement call you are, and everyone else is. No One Knows for sure if some soul is injected into an egg with the sperm, No One Knows. Instead we are left to use the two extremes as goalposts in this debate. One says Thes cells are Human , and to kill a Human is Murder. The other says these cells are...Cells, and cannot be Human for quite some time.

Actually I don't agree. Cells can be flakes of skin and what not. The embryo is a living human organism as you and I are living human organisms. Therefore to say it is not human is absurd and defies science, biology, embryology, ect.

If the society you live in places something into the culture....and the population is split as to the Good/Bad of it all...by default, we look to law. Hell...thats the reason we HAVE laws.

Yes but in my opinion roe vs wade was legislating from the bench and in no way was abortion ever a constitutional right. Thus I have a problem with it.

1) constitutional (seperation of church and state)

Total crap. One does not need to be religious to think abortion is wrong. To claim that this is a religious argument is fallacious.

 

[Enola/Alone]

The "my body, my choice" mantra is also short sided and selfish.

In what way?

In short, when a woman acts in a promiscuous, sluty manner, she is training men to treat women like sex objects.

I'm sorry, but just because a woman enjoys sex does not make her a sex object, or to blame for the objectification of women. I defineyely think that porn actresses need to take some of the blame for this, however ordinary women who enjoy sex are doing nothing wrong and should not be blamed for male mistreatment.

These men are not likely to stick around in a family, and the divorce rate goes up, giving the gay marriage folks even more to argue with.

Girls who are raised without a Father Archetype in these broken homes seek a father figure in their boyfriends. Not directly seeing their boyfriend as a father, but as the man that has been missing in their lives, they tend to * ahem* give themselves away....which only further trains men to treat women like sex objects, giving feminists even more ammo.

I think this is maybe a bit of an over generlisation: I was raised in a "broken home"(abusive father, parents split when I was a baby) and I don't behave in this way, and don't have any interest in the idea of sex outside of committed relationships. And once again, men who mistreat women have no one to blame but themselves.

Boys who are raised with out a Father Archetype either "hyper masculine" in an attempt to become a man, or are feminized by the lack of a masculine role model.

Again, neither of these was the case with my two brothers. This is an over-generlisation.

Not having a proper role model to teach them how to treat women ( you know, with respect), they tend to go with the popular flow and seek to feel like a man through their sexual activities.

They can see the proper way to treat women throgh other male relatives, through female relatives, teachers and good friends. It's not essential for this to be imparted by the father.

This is where I come from: I did not have a Mother Archetype. As a result of my mother's * quote* "It's my life, I'm board, I'm leaving" attitude, I now fight a daily demon casting doubt on my wife’s loyalty. I fear that she will either leave me and my boys or cheat on me. So far I have been able to keep emotions in check, but there have been times.....

I'm sorry that your mother's abandonement is still causing you problems Jerry, and believe me, I wish you all the best in rebuilding your self-belief.

I realize that this does not translate directly into abortion, but I see a commonality in the mindset, actions and attitude between my mother and the mainstream pro choice crowd.

I'm not sure how this fits in, but I feel it's somehow relevant: My concern on sex education in school. Giving children age appropriate information is fine, but I highly doubt that how-to sex ed. is appropriate universally, and I think that that decision should be left to the parents.

That's assuming that the parents will actually give their kids the facts though, when many are either ill-informed themselves or too embarrassed. I do personally feel that more emphasus on emotions and feelings and the confidence to say "Yes" when you wnat to and "No" when you don't is need in Sex Ed.

You see, I am one of those kids who found his dad's porno ( no, not of him.....eeeewww) at a young age. I feel that this exacerbated my male instinct of promiscuity and greatly amplified my seeing women as sex objects. I confess, every single time I see an attractive woman my very first thought is of sex. Every-single-time (sorry Enola....nice avatar....)

I don't believe there actually IS a male instinct of promicuity, I think that's just something manufactured to excuse infidelity in men while keeping it shameful for women, although I certainly think that porn has no place lying around where it can be found by children. Children need protecting from adult material.

I know that that is wrong and it is one of the reasons I follow the Christian path. The Christian path is one of repentance, redemption and correction; and though I know where my demons come, I realize that it is now my responsibility to correct myself.

It's good that you've found something to help you through.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit rambling. I've never tried to put these things to words before.

It was really brave of you to share this with us, Jerry, and it must have been quite strange putting it into words. Sorry if it feels like I'm criticizing you here, but I generally have empathy for what you've been through.

 

[talloulou]

Number 3 describes fetuses biological relationship with the mother, it depends on her for survival but contributes nothing to do her. I'm not saying that makes it a parasite, I'm saying biologically, the relationship is parasitic.

Great find a dr that agrees with you. :rofl Prochoicers love this parasitic argument because then abortion is like ridding oneself of tapeworms. But how nice that you've adopted the feminist rhetoric without any legit sources to back up the claim. Bravo.

Your support for forced gestation is equally repugnant to me, and I believe this does more herm than abortion could ever do.

Am I forcing a women to get pregnant???? Outside of rape it was her actions that got her pregnant and it is her body that is gestating and I have nothing to do with that. Certainly I am not "forcing" her gestation. We have laws preventing women from killing their born children. If a group of women tried to argue that this was "forced parenthood" they would be viewed as hysterical losers just as I view the prochoice movement.

True, but what a zygote/embryo/fetus looks like early on in gestation bears little resemblance to what most of us would see as human.

So what are you saying we should base opinions on ignorance? If the world looks flat then it might as well be flat? A human embryo/fetus looks exactly as a human looks at that stage. From conception till death humans go through developmental changes and with these changes come changes in appearance.

Developing in a parasitic manner inside it's mothers body. I'm not calling it a parasite, just pointing out a fact.

Except for generally the reproductive process is not viewed as parasitic except by one group and one group only. The prochoicers. No one else agrees with them. Got any credible sources????

And don't bother showing me a dictionary cause I'll show you tons of dictionaries that refer to the unborn as baby, child, ect.....And certainly you don't buy those defs do you?

Who isn't biologically dependant on another human being's body, unlike a fetus.

You know what when I breastfed my daughter for a year she was biological dependent on me. She still is dependent on me. But let's assume you are right for a minute....Didn't you say before that you don't even care if the fetus is viable and could be removed from the mother and survive? You said it was still okay to terminate/kill that baby. So really what's the point of your "dependent" argument? You don't seem to care if this applies or not.

I really don't see what right you have to attempt to control what goes on inside a woman's uterus, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't see why women think they have the right to take a human life.

 

[Enola/Alone]

Great find a dr that agrees with you. :rofl Prochoicers love this parasitic argument because then abortion is like ridding oneself of tapeworms. But how nice that you've adopted the feminist rhetoric without any legit sources to back up the claim. Bravo.

Talloulou, was the description I gave you accurate or inaccurate? If inaccurate, why? Don't hide behind rofl's and generalisations abou pro-choicers.

Am I forcing a women to get pregnant???? Outside of rape it was her actions that got her pregnant and it is her body that is gestating and I have nothing to do with that. Certainly I am not "forcing" her gestation. We have laws preventing women from killing their born children. If a group of women tried to argue that this was "forced parenthood" they would be viewed as hysterical losers just as I view the prochoice movement.

Talloulou, if a woman falls pregnnat, do you or do you not support forcing her to carry to term?

So what are you saying we should base opinions on ignorance? If the world looks flat then it might as well be flat? A human embryo/fetus looks exactly as a human looks at that stage. From conception till death humans go through developmental changes and with these changes come changes in appearance.

I'm not saying anything of the sort, I was posting in respons eto your claim that saying the fetus didn't look human was "callous".

Except for generally the reproductive process is not viewed as parasitic except by one group and one group only. The prochoicers. No one else agrees with them. Got any credible sources????

And don't bother showing me a dictionary cause I'll show you tons of dictionaries that refer to the unborn as baby, child, ect.....And certainly you don't buy those defs do you?

What constitues baby, child etc, is up for deabte but parasitic indisputably means taking without giving. What does the fetus dow hile in the mother's body? Takes without giving.

You know what when I breastfed my daughter for a year she was biological dependent on me.

No, she was not biologically dependent on you in the sense that the fetus is on it's mother: the fetus can only be cared for for the body of the mother, whereas your daughter was not exclusively dependent on you because she could have been successfully cared for by another human being.

She still is dependent on me. But let's assume you are right for a minute....Didn't you say before that you don't even care if the fetus is viable and could be removed from the mother and survive? You said it was still okay to terminate/kill that baby. So really what's the point of your "dependent" argument? You don't seem to care if this applies or not.

Because I believe the dependence argument is a clear cut logical argument for abortion to be allowed up until viability, and because most abortions take place before viability.

I don't see why women think they have the right to take a human life.

I don't see why you feel you have the right to force your ideals on grown women, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[talloulou]

What constitues baby, child etc, is up for deabte but parasitic indisputably means taking without giving. What does the fetus dow hile in the mother's body? Takes without giving.

So you mean to tell me if I look up baby in a dictionary and it literally says in black and white easy to read no need to interpret print that a fetus may be considered a baby that is something that may be debated?

But on the other hand if I look up parasite and parasitic and it doesn't mention fetus or embryo or reproduction in any way shape or form it is still indisputable that the unborn are parasitic?

Let me make sure I have this straight....even though drs. commonly refer to the unborn as "baby" that term is disputable? And even though there are no sources where a dr. refers to reproduction or the healthy unborn as parasite or parasitic....that is indisputable??????


:2funny:

Once all logic has left the conversation there really is no need to continue. Clearly you are not debating you are just stating your opinions as facts and claiming they are indisputable when that clearly is not the case. Congratulations! You have now gone to the realm where I won't bug you anymore 'cause it's simply not worth it.