My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

[dairyair]

I am under the assumption they have accepted a social construct.

They accept a social construct?
As the being they feel they are?

You really don't have an interest in understanding the trans people at all?

 

[dairyair]

There are people called Furries who have fursonas and ascribe to identifying as an animal. How would that be any different than a trans person?

I don't know.
I don't have either of those issues.

7B ppl in the world. And 7B types.

 

[dairyair]

I believe there are people who don't ascribe to gender normative stereotypes for a variety of reasons.

I agree.
Humanity, genes, hormones, brain function, all play in the makeup.
And it is a sliding scale. Far far from binary.

 

[dairyair]

Medical doctors today have too much faith in drugs. If we are not skeptical, most of us will take many drugs that are unnecessary and harmful.

And gender re-assignment surgery is a horrible idea, in my opinion. I don't have to be an MD to feel that way. I'm sure I am not the only one.

I bet to the majority of those that have the surgery, they have 100% opposite opinion.

 

[Integrityrespec]

I'll assume that you're of the male gender just for demonstrative purposes. Could you, as a male, imagine living your life being considered and accepted by society as a whole as being female? Could you wear the clothes a woman wears or join all women team sports, could you apply for a job and check the box for gender as 'female'. In other words, could you imagine yourself living your entire life feeling entirely disconnected and naturally alien to every fiber of your emotional being as a human because you were born with male genitalia?

You have completely misinterpreted transsexuals. They are not "fixated at being the opposite sex", they are the opposite sex. They live their true gender in the same way you live yours, which happens to be male. If you were forced to live as a female you would not be happy because that's not who you are. They are making difficult social choices to live in their own personal identity, it's as simple as that. Gender doesn't always correspond with birth sex.

So is this a physical thing, or is it a cognitive thing. Body doesn't match the brain or brain doesn't match the body?

 

[Good4Nothin]

Many people do just that. They are not. They are fallible people just like the rest of us.

Medical science today is capable of some pretty interesting, at times scary, things. Things that really make us have to consider medical ethics etc., in many ways we really can "play God" now.

And we'd better be careful, very careful with that, because we're NOT God and cannot even imagine the consequences of what we may believe to be consequence free. .

Somewhere, someone WILL step way past the boundaries of good sense though - when have humans NOT done so ? ... and we'll pay the price.

Yes of course. If something can be done, it will be done, no matter how dangerous.

Medical scientists and doctors are taught that there is nothing mysterious about life, nothing ultimately beyond human comprehension. The philosophy is basically materialism. No "magic" involved, no life force, nothing beyond what science already understands. This results it reckless over-confidence.

Life, and the universe, is infinitely more intelligent than we are. We are better at technology than the other earth animals, but we aren't nearly as smart as we think we are. The unknown is still infinite, and infinitely beyond our greatest experts.

 

[Irredentist]

It might as well be a magical process. That's how well scientists understand it. Development is extremely complex, and very poorly understood. Our society has too much faith in medical science. Because of a small number of effective medical interventions, you assume medical doctors are all-knowing gods.

There is a vast, vast realm of difference between thinking of doctors as all knowing gods, or quack magicians. I think that most people fall somewhere in between.

Our understanding of the science behind gender is incomplete, true. But it's a far beyond "magic" levels of understanding, seeing as we can actively tinker it.

 

[Good4Nothin]

There is a vast, vast realm of difference between thinking of doctors as all knowing gods, or quack magicians. I think that most people fall somewhere in between.

Our understanding of the science behind gender is incomplete, true. But it's a far beyond "magic" levels of understanding, seeing as we can actively tinker it.

By giving sex hormones. You think that if something is partly understood, then it's mostly understood. No, the unknown is unknown.

 

[captaintrips]

Yes of course. If something can be done, it will be done, no matter how dangerous.

It is true. Mankinds arrogance has always hurt mankind. We seem unable to learn from our mistakes.

Medical scientists and doctors are taught that there is nothing mysterious about life, nothing ultimately beyond human comprehension. The philosophy is basically materialism. No "magic" involved, no life force, nothing beyond what science already understands. This results it reckless over-confidence.

It IS materialism and does too often result in arrogance/over-confidence.

Life, and the universe, is infinitely more intelligent than we are. We are better at technology than the other earth animals, but we aren't nearly as smart as we think we are. The unknown is still infinite, and infinitely beyond our greatest experts.

Humility will come to us by our own choice, or the hard way, given by nature or God - whichever "preference" certain of us may have LOL But it comes, always.

 

[captaintrips]

There is a vast, vast realm of difference between thinking of doctors as all knowing gods, or quack magicians. I think that most people fall somewhere in between.

Our understanding of the science behind gender is incomplete, true. But it's a far beyond "magic" levels of understanding, seeing as we can actively tinker it.

A LITTLE bit.

The human genome is huge, with links and relations we don't, and may NEVER know or understand.

Fiddling around with it isn't as safe and easy as some may think it is.

I always tell people to take college Microbiology.

Interesting class and good at showing how really complex even the "simplest" life forms are.

We're fantasizing when we believe we can tinker around, or make "changes," improvements so easily.

 

[Lursa]

Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.

Would your gender identity change at all, for you, depending on what you wore or didnt wear? Or demonstrate to the world?

 

[CriticalThought]

They accept a social construct?
As the being they feel they are?

You really don't have an interest in understanding the trans people at all?

Look, a lot of people are super proud of being American. But what does that mean? They were born within a certain set of imaginary lines on a map. Some of the people who are proud to be American fight in the armed services or take part in the civics of their community but most do not and the social construct of being American is extremely important to them emotionally and to their sense of identity. Understanding that does not mean I have no interest in understanding them, it is recognizing a reality that few of those people take into consideration when they throw an American flag on their pickup and shout about how their country is the best in the world.

 

[Irredentist]

By giving sex hormones. You think that if something is partly understood, then it's mostly understood. No, the unknown is unknown.

The unknown is unknown, wow, thanks for explaining that to me. Can you now explain to me how we go about learning things? Oh wait it's by experimentation, by research. The only way to learn how effective gender reassignment is, and how to improve it, is to research those who undergo it. I support this scientific process of technological advancement.

 

[CriticalThought]

Would your gender identity change at all, for you, depending on what you wore or didnt wear? Or demonstrate to the world?

You are what you practice. So eventually, yes I could condition myself to feel differently. But we are dealing with a hypothetical, so who knows.

 

[Irredentist]

A LITTLE bit.

The human genome is huge, with links and relations we don't, and may NEVER know or understand.

Fiddling around with it isn't as safe and easy as some may think it is.

I always tell people to take college Microbiology.

Interesting class and good at showing how really complex even the "simplest" life forms are.

We're fantasizing when we believe we can tinker around, or make "changes," improvements so easily.

As far as I understand gender reassignment does not involve any genetic changes. Just hormone therapy and sometimes surgery. But perhaps new technologies will become available in the future.

 

[Lisa]

My facts are different than your facts.

Your facts are opinions because I am citing medical science.

 

[Lursa]

You are what you practice. So eventually, yes I could condition myself to feel differently. But we are dealing with a hypothetical, so who knows.

Thank you. That assumes you had a goal in mind by presenting yourself that way.

And that it's conditioning...not natural brain chemistry. So there would have to be a choice to 'condition' oneself. (since according to you, the presentation of dress, attitude, would come first and create the conditioning.)

So then you believe that you could be conditioned to identify as a woman?

Interesting. The evidence indicates that the identity drives the dress, attitude, etc, rather than the opposite I mean, why is the person dressing, acting, like that if not because that's how they identify? (I dont mean actors, of course)

 

[CriticalThought]

?? That assumes you had a goal in mind. And that it's conditioning...not natural brain chemistry.

So then you believe that you could be conditioned to identify as a woman?

Interesting. The evidence indicates that the identity drives the dress, attitude, etc, rather than the opposite I mean, why is the person dressing, acting, like that if not because that's how they identify? (I dont mean actors, of course)

We change our brain chemistry all the time by what choices we make. Identity is pretty fickle. This idea that it is fixed, innate, and immutable is very recent and has very little evidence to support it aside from, "they told me this is how they feel".

 

[Lursa]

We change our brain chemistry all the time by what choices we make. Identity is pretty fickle. This idea that it is fixed, innate, and immutable is very recent and has very little evidence to support it aside from, "they told me this is how they feel".

But why would a person, or you in the example, be externalizing a woman's persona to begin with? (Again, aside from some professional reason) What drove that, esp. to the extent that you would eventually have your brain chemistry changed?

 

[CriticalThought]

But why would a person, or you in the example, be externalizing a woman's persona to begin with? (Again, aside from some professional reason) What drove that, esp. to the extent that you would eventually have your brain chemistry changed?

I assume some sort of predisposition. We are creatures of a never ending interaction between nature and nurture.

 

[Irredentist]

We change our brain chemistry all the time by what choices we make. Identity is pretty fickle. This idea that it is fixed, innate, and immutable is very recent and has very little evidence to support it aside from, "they told me this is how they feel".

There is actually evidence to support the idea of gender identity being innate. David Reimer was a Canadian boy whose penis was accidentally burnt off during circumcision. His parents then attempted to raise him as a girl with the help of a Psychologist from Johns Hopkins named John Money. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this was unsuccessful, as David Reimer transitioned back to living as a man before ultimately committing suicide.

 

[Lursa]

I assume some sort of predisposition. We are creatures of a never ending interaction between nature and nurture.

Then a person starts out (if given the opportunity and doesnt have gender stereotypes forced on them) presenting their "natural gender identity" and so then I dont understand why you brought up the outward presentation of that?

 

[captaintrips]

As far as I understand gender reassignment does not involve any genetic changes. Just hormone therapy and sometimes surgery. But perhaps new technologies will become available in the future.

It doesn't, that's correct.

What I wrote was in the context of what I was replying too, which was only tangential to the thread topic.

 

[CriticalThought]

Then a person starts out (if given the opportunity and doesnt have gender stereotypes forced on them) presenting their "natural gender identity" and so then I dont understand why you brought up the outward presentation of that?

I think I more or less said so in my OP.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women.

 

[dairyair]

Look, a lot of people are super proud of being American. But what does that mean? They were born within a certain set of imaginary lines on a map. Some of the people who are proud to be American fight in the armed services or take part in the civics of their community but most do not and the social construct of being American is extremely important to them emotionally and to their sense of identity. Understanding that does not mean I have no interest in understanding them, it is recognizing a reality that few of those people take into consideration when they throw an American flag on their pickup and shout about how their country is the best in the world.

300M American. 300M reasons one will be proud to be an American.
Or for a certain percentage, not proud to be an American. Some of time or maybe all of the time?

Sorry if I misunderstand your posting on this topic. It seemed at one point I took you as thinking trans folks are, for lack of a better term, nuts. Not living in reality.
But I say, there reality is different than ours, ie non trans.
And IMO, not better or worse. For I don't know. But they do.