Because American exports, they feel, bastardize their society leading to promiscuity, acceptance of more than one point of view, and a non religion based society. The exports reach around the world. They are not on the "other side" This is ignorance on your part.I've been getting far too worked up trying to get points across... lost in the translation of dry text and the odd picture.
Now, whatever the situation about the PNAC reports, and why there wasn't any identifying wreckage, nothing with a number, a serial number, whatever, whether flight 93 was shot down to protect the country, or taken down in a heroic sacrifice. Whether the towers could collapse naturally AS IT DID WITH the levels of work involved and the acceleration involved. Even IF the PNAC document DIDN'T call for 'A new pearl Harbor' in order to accomplish their military objectives into the next century, a plan which called for two simultaneous wars, one of them being the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
At what point does it get where you don't think SOMETHING WRONG started that day.... I mean, why would someone half-way around the world give two ****s about how 'free' our country is??? If they are legitimate terrorists, they hate us because the US is the 'bully of the world' to large segments of the world.
Not at all. Had parts of it been enacted prior to 9/11, we likely would not be talking about 9/11 right now.Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???
If that is the case, yes.Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??
Not so much. Often times victims families never feel that justice was served. Half? Puhleeze.... you're just making things up; again.Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
I'm never sure you told the truth...ever.The only times I am sure Bush told the truth about 9-11 was when he said "you're either with US or against US"... but the people thought that the 'US' included them... The US he meant was him and his 'cronies'... the people that ultimately planned and orchestrated it... whether it was by instigating an attack, knowing it was coming and 'allowing it to occur', or the deep covert tactics as I still do suspect.
Stalin knew about it at Yalta. You're simply ignorant of history.Think about it... the manhattan project was kept secret FOR YEARS before a single whistleblower came out...
Snicker....lolJFK was dead for close to 30 years before any real whistleblowers came out.
[/quote]This time any whistle blowers are demonized.
Can't you see the LIES??? I mean, if YOU HONESTLY are believing 'that we have to give up our rights and civil liberties, in the name of safety because the terrorists hate us because of our rights and liberties'... I mean, have you ever actually thought this belief set through, for yourselves??
So, I got a little too heated lately, so I'm not going to debate this issue for some time... all I'm asking, is do a gut check of where the world is today BECAUSE of 9-11... and really ask yourself why you would be so interested in demonize those who MOSTLY have a few questions...
Congressional investigations, a Commission Report, FBI investigations into all four plane crashes. Local investigations subordinate to those....you're simply not looking at the available evidence.that they don't feel were properly looked into...
This is beyond the science, beyond the theories, just honestly... did you ever think that you'd have to have someone look at your junk to get on a plane (even if it is on a computer monitor)?? It was bad enough having to take off my shoes.
See above for the right answer to your lame question.So, even if the government did ON 9-11 was good and well... how is it that 9-11 was conjured so many times in the aftermath in order to justify passing anti-constitutional legislation, like the "Orwellian named" patriot act?
We have done that. The perps are dead. The ones that organized it are in prison, and we're still going after other organizers. You're right for once.I thought after tragedy we mourned, we figured out what happened, and then we seek justice.
Must be in custody to extradite.We should have presented the evidence against bin laden to extradite him to the US....
Now the US is supplying opium to Europe and the black market. See you're not asking questions, you're making wild, unfounded accusations.The afghans aren't are enemies like that, but then in our 'search and arrest' operation we 'accidentally' took over their country and now police the opium trade, shipping it over to europe and the US on the black market, where the US govt will then place you in custody where you might have to work for 20cents/hr to get reduced time.
Between you and logic? You'd have to be blind not to see it.Can't you see the disconnect?? Can't you feel it in your gut?
And when you stop dreaming, perhaps you'll wake up and smell what you've been shoveling.You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
[/QUOTE]Finally, I know some of you gripe at being called a 'sheep' by truthers... here's the deal... a sheep cannot conceive in it's mind that the hand that feeds it one day will eventually be the hand to slit it's throat. That's the problem with dependence, and the government more and more is making people habituated to being dependent on govt.
Really... before you try to debunk this... just sit back and ponder it... please.
Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and
industrial policy will shape the pace and
content of transformation as much as the
requirements of current missions. A
decision to suspend or terminate aircraft
carrier production, as recommended by this
report and as justified by the clear direction
of military technology, will cause great
upheaval. Likewise, systems entering
production today – the F-22 fighter, for
example – will be in service inventories for
decades to come. Wise management of this
process will consist in large measure of
figuring out the right moments to halt
production of current-paradigm weapons
and shift to radically new designs. The
expense associated with some programs can
make them roadblocks to the larger process
of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter
program, at a total of approximately $200
billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus,
this report advocates a two-stage process of
change – transition and transformation –
over the coming decades.
At what point does it get where you don't think SOMETHING WRONG started that day.... I mean, why would someone half-way around the world give two ****s about how 'free' our country is??? If they are legitimate terrorists, they hate us because the US is the 'bully of the world' to large segments of the world.
Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??
Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
Can't you see the disconnect?? Can't you feel it in your gut?
Not at all. Had parts of it been enacted prior to 9/11, we likely would not be talking about 9/11 right now.
If that is the case, yes.
Not so much. Often times victims families never feel that justice was served. Half? Puhleeze.... you're just making things up; again.
Bush was not wrong about who attacked us; it was Osama Bin Laden's group Al Queda.
Bush was not wrong going after their training camps in Afghanistan. As a result of their training being disrupted, you see morons setting their under ware on fire or leaving their house keys on the key ring on cars they tried to blow up. Bad training = poor performance in the field. You should thank Bush for that.
Bush was not wrong when he said our law enforcement needs new tools.
Bush was not wrong when he gave them the new tools.
You're simply ignorant on this point. We have never, ever, had unabridged rights in this country. You could never yell "fire" in a crowded theater legally. You could never broadcast troop movements during a time of war. You could never point a gun at someone and think that you're protected by any law whatsoever.
If it saves one life or one planeload of passengers...totally worth it. If you don't like it, catch a ferry or drive to where you have to go.
Must be in custody to extradite.
Now the US is supplying opium to Europe and the black market. See you're not asking questions, you're making wild, unfounded accusations.
WebCite query result
So why in the world did you bring it up had you endeavored to read even the paragraph which was talking about the transformation of defense policy? The truth is you didn't. You and the other sheep saw this on one of your websites and you and the other sheep were off to the races repeating the lie over and over. When you come back and "ask your questions" again, you'll regurgitate the lie once more. So will creativedreams.
YOU are the sheep.
Part of the reason why your point 'isn't becoming fact for many people' is because it's mostly hypothesis. And what isn't hypothesis is sometimes based on eye witness accounts and 'expert' testimonies. But if I want I can find an eye witness which swears that Elvis is still alive, Aliens harvested their eyelashes, and that the Adkins diet is a safe and effective diet plan. I can also find experts that will tell you eating at White-Castle is health . . . and that irradiated water is good for your soul.
Ok - someone being *there* or *knowing alot of stuff* means nothing and most people *know* this is just a fact of life.
So - that adresses most theories and posts right there.
Your argument lacks substantial proof or evidence - it's just a theory.
Now - here's another part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. You believe and say stupid things like this.
"Why would they care?"
You need to take some time to LEARN why they *DO* care - why they have an opinion about us, our culture and our lifestyle. Dig deep into history and you'll be surprised and shocked at where their beliefs and opinoins DO come from. It's really interesting and very complicated.
But- yes- they DO care. THAT is not some estranged conspiracy that someone just *poof* came out with - please understand - many of *them* admittedly and hatedly *don't like us*
No, it doesn't bother me if it was written prior to 9/11 - because it was never presented "purely in response to 9/11"
Fighting terrorism is our new cold-war focus. With the Russians subdued, the Nazi's vanquished - we have to have something to focus on and the terrrorists are it. They were it for a long time before 9/11 - but you just don't seem interested in those facts.
Just the firefighters?
Just their families?
I believe a lot of people share the feeling and thought - but don't buy into the conspiracy theories presented, either - because that doesn't help when one is seeking real answers and trying to understand 'why'.
Your need to understand something that is hard to swallow has led you down this path of paranoia, resentment (of regular citizens) and frustration - but at the same time you immediately and quickly right off FACTS and raise questions like "why on earth would they actually CARE about us at all?" . . . this shows that you want to find an answer that suits your desires in life - and you obviously have no real interest in *truth* because if you did then you'd be eyeballs deep in a stack of history books tracing their problems with us back to the conception of Islam and the birth of Christ.
I understand your passion because I have a very good friend who spent years on the subject...to the point where she lost friends with her obsession. I admire it because we need to ask questions and refuse to accept government truth out-of-hand. And you have done that, well, admirably.
Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. The reason they are successful in recruiti...ences, faulty science, mis-applied science combine to bring enough "truth" to the table to cause skeptics such as yourself to doubt. Understandable.
Example: Where truthers show us eye-witness testimony that people really DID hear explosions at Ground Zero, truthers extrapolate those explosions were explosives. The rest of us understand that thousands of tons of concrete pancaking down floor-by-floor can be easily misinterpretted by the most unreliable source of all -- eye-witness testimony. Boom-Boom-Boom-Boom.
The rest of us know in our hearts that if it was a black flag operation, we will probaby never-ever know. Many of the rest of us also believe that the amount of people it would take to make this a black flag operation would likely mean that someone, someone, would come forward. The rewards of capitalism are great. And seductive. The abilities of human beings to keep secrets like this stretches the imagination to the breaking point.
Anyhow, I'll end this where I started it. I admire your curiosity and understand your passion. I'm just not a believer. ;-)
Is it your last post? really? do you promise?
In all of the entries here and on other Forums does anyone recall much, or any Real compassion on the part of the "Truthers" for the victims of 9/11 ????
Is it your last post? really? do you promise?
Gee he wasn't being truthful. I, for one, am shocked. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So much less so then you realize... eyewitnesses only count if they don't oppose the 'official story'... people forget about the van bombs that went off that day and those perpetrators arrested, about the mossad agents that were arrested, about the lobbies of the towers, etc, etc, etc... I'm not going to delve any further into it.
Yes... the biggest problem from the muslims of the world is that there's not any muslims that will go out and say 'ya, flying planes into buildings is WRONG.'... even where different groups disagree, they will all be willing to justify why people must die in certain conditions. It makes it difficult if not impossible to distinguish 'good' groups from 'bad' groups...
Ultimately to address your point, which I feel is valid, because many of them DO admittedly HATE the US... we should try to ask 'why' that is the case? I'll tell you, it's NOT because 'we are free'...
Ok, that's fine... in that case, does it bother you that the legislation wasn't even written by an american?
That is true... and you don't HAVE to believe that this was an elaborate conspiracy to see that something doesn't add up between the event, the response and where that has brought our society almost 10 years later.
You misunderstood my point... perhaps I should have used 'indifference' rather then 'lack of caring'... as for the why you're presenting... that's more like a minor factor of what I'm talking about, and dates back hundreds of years... I was referring to something different... not completely unrelated but definitely different.
Curiosity kills - have you read the entire Patriot Act and all of it's alterations, expirations and enhancements?
Who cares *when* it was written or *why* it was written or even who wrote the damn thing - those things don't matter.
What does matter is *that* it was written *that* it was passed and *that* it has been amended and altered - and is still is in use, today.
You're focusing on the wrong things - perhaps if you focused on the right things you wouldn't be continually hitting the same wall.
Read the title "my final post ON 9-11". I don't intend to quit debating, I'm just not getting into that topic anymore. This is just my last posts...
Be thankful... when you're talking the most nonsense I won't be taking part anymore.
Curiosity kills - have you read the entire Patriot Act and all of it's alterations, expirations and enhancements?
Who cares *when* it was written
or *why* it was written
or even who wrote the damn thing - those things don't matter.
What does matter is *that* it was written *that* it was passed and *that* it has been amended and altered - and is still is in use, today.
You're focusing on the wrong things - perhaps if you focused on the right things you wouldn't be continually hitting the same wall.
Ya... pretty well... Total information awareness, state and federal crimes are domestic terrorism, controlling the movement of funds, ya... real freedom loving legislation.
When is important because of the pressures involved in passing it after 9-11...
If it was written to enable a police state in the US, wouldn't that concern you?? I mean, I couldn't prove that this was the case, but at least the original legislation and the first reauthorization are completely opposite the constitutional view of laws, in almost every sense.
I'd say it matters, how is a vietnamese lawyer going to have the knowledge and understandings of the constitution, and how are you certain this is being written in OUR interests rather than HIS interests, when he's studied HIS laws and customs, and not americas??
Mostly for drug crimes... now, if you want I can start searching for all the media examples of FBI/CIA drug running, then a different section of the agency polices the drugs, and incarcerates anyone caught using the product they are bringing in. It's a fact that opium production has been cultivated at record rates every year for the past number of years SINCE the invasion.
It's also a fact that the patriot act gets used thousands of times a year in drug related cases.
U.S. Uses Terror Law to Pursue Crimes From Drugs to Swindling - NYTimes.com
If the bill was passed to stop terrorism, what does that have to do with terrorism?? Oh, it 'funds' terrorists... but since on the other end we're helping to grow and / or ship the drugs INTO the country, why would the focus be on that??
I don't think it's as simple as money either, because a person in prison is not only profitable worker potentially, 20cents / hour and favorable treatment for good work... so, it's also about the control.
I am focused on making sure that the country stays a republic... to put it simply, and most can't seem to see how it is at risk... and I mean dire risk at this point... not so much as immediate, but imminent. I don't think it's really avoidable anymore.
As I said in the first post, a sheep is incapable of conceptualizing that the hand that feeds one day is the same hand that will come and slit it's throat some day. So far, the sheep are being 'sheared'... not slaughtered.... if we don't realize where the world is headed societally if we don't change the path soon, then we will be about as effective as sheep protesting the act of eating mutton.
Just for the comic image, picture a pasture of sheep protesting eating sheep... and the farmers looking at each other... 'damn sheep are protesting again, you hungry?'
I know I know, that 'can't happen in out modern society'.... to spite the fact that these types of systems have cost in the area of 150 million people... NOT INCLUDING Hitler, in just the past century. Think what the old Soviet russian system under stalin could have done with today's technology??
It's not to be paranoid, it's to be aware and active enough to see what's going on and to put the effort to change things in a better way, in the little ways you can....
It's like the Gandhi quote, "Even though what you do seems insignificant, it's very important that you keep doing it."
You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???
Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??
Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
Think about it... the manhattan project was kept secret FOR YEARS before a single whistleblower came out... JFK was dead for close to 30 years before any real whistleblowers came out. This time any whistle blowers are demonized.
all I'm asking, is do a gut check of where the world is today BECAUSE of 9-11... and really ask yourself why you would be so interested in demonize those who MOSTLY have a few questions that they don't feel were properly looked into... This is beyond the science, beyond the theories, just honestly... did you ever think that you'd have to have someone look at your junk to get on a plane (even if it is on a computer monitor)?? It was bad enough having to take off my shoes.
You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
Finally, I know some of you gripe at being called a 'sheep' by truthers... here's the deal... a sheep cannot conceive in it's mind that the hand that feeds it one day will eventually be the hand to slit it's throat. That's the problem with dependence, and the government more and more is making people habituated to being dependent on govt.
Really... before you try to debunk this... just sit back and ponder it... please.
No, not last post... the last I'm going to be debating issues surrounding 9-11...
At least in MY opinion, it is a DISHONOR to those that died and their families that 9-11 be used for this type of pretext and it be allowed to continue. It's also a dishonor to the army to be sacrificing themselves in an unjust war..
Well - that settles it.
Bman, I gave you an open opportunity and you just started talking about eating sheep and Gandhi. :shrug: If anything we should be equated to cattle. . . because sheep aren't traditionally consumed (at least in the US) - they're just used for their wool. Cattle on the other had are raised and then slaughtered for their meat, bone and hide.
<snip>
Well - that settles it.
Bman, I gave you an open opportunity and you just started talking about eating sheep and Gandhi. :shrug: If anything we should be equated to cattle. . . because sheep aren't traditionally consumed (at least in the US) - they're just used for their wool. Cattle on the other had are raised and then slaughtered for their meat, bone and hide.
I don't believe you've read the Patriot Act in the slightest bit of depth. Whereas I have - because I truly did have interest in what everyone else was so twisted up over.
I have concerns over the act - individual concerns over portions of it and certain goals of certain parts. But I'm not constructing a web of conspiracy to support my opinions - I'm purely letting the facts of the bill itself support my opinions. No web necessary.
Same thing with the Health Care Act - and other things. I've never disagrees 100% with anything in it's entirety - but in portions, yes.
To me that's the sign of a reasonable person - when they're willing to say "I don't agree with this and this - but right here, this line, this isn't that bad" :shrug:
Even I with the TARP and AAHCA found things within them that weren't actually a problem.
If you're frustrated it's purely because of your own blockers you've been wearing and the brick wall you built around yourself.
Do you see yourself as Neo or Morpheus?
B'man but NOT one of those points shows, or even mildly infers, that it was a deliberate act by your government.
Just because Bush disgracefully took advantage afterwards, showed not enough care to the Fire Fighters and left families asking for more, does NOT mean they should be accused of causing it ... don't you see that ???
And there is zero credible proof that there is any conspiracy surrounding Kennedys death either ...
Couldn't have said it better myself.The "Magic Bullet" has been proven conclusively to be without merit.
B'man ... this is all well and good, but mistrust and suspicion alone is NOT enough, you need to understand you need MORE than a general dislike and misgivings about how the world is going before you trumpet claims of mass murder against those you so distrust ... you NEED hard facts, proper evidence ... not speculation and possibilities.
Do you know how often I have argued against the Nibiru guff ... yet anyone with even the merest scintilla of understanding easily saw the (again) impossibility of it ... yet despite bombarding them with legitimate astronomical information, it was outright rejected, because they really do need feel above the rest of us mortals just following da gubmint lie ... they were given REAL facts and found them false, through faith in the conspiracy.
Most conspiracy believers genuinely do "want" it to be true, depsite denial, for not only does it make life more interesting and exciting, it also elevates their own perceived status against us sheeple types ... and will outhand reject all opposing information, even demonstrable truth, preferring their "conspiracy" ... they MAKE reality as they wish it to be !!!
You also need to learn to do better and more thourough double-checking of facts presented by conspiracy sites ... especially considering how often they have been shown flawed and/or outright lying then you SHOULD in future take them with more than automatic belief and agreement ... you SHOULD subject their claims to the same standards of checking as the opposing.
You should always look equally at infomation that "rejects" your claims as much as supports it ... that is the mark of the true skeptic, if nothing else you can then see and predict which part of your arguments will be attacked and so be better prepared with your defence of it.
And the bigger the lie the more likely people are to believe it.Ultimately it is quite simple B'man ... the more outrageous the claim the less likely true in reality !!!
No B'man this is just psyco-babble, weak, weak psychological justification for a thinking style you should have grown out of years ago.
People are not as "asleep" as you think ... we all know what is wrong with the world, we do know.
Obviously the planet is too big, but we all do our small and important bits ... show some faith in your fellow humans B'man ... for they are not quite as gullible and blindly docile as you think !!!
Go and do my challenges ... see for YOURSELF if your grasp of science and physics is good enough.
B'man, my country has more government dependancy than yours ... we have a free health system, education system, more free services than yours and yet we haven't fallen that much into Hell.
Yes, we do have some, just some, whom are wholly dependant by choice and are a drain and waste of resources but it hasn't ruined civilisation as we know it ... most people are still good, good enough and concerned enough to not allow things to go too far ... history is littered with proof of this !!!
Life changes, moves on but it should not be feared, the unknown is fearful ... but mostly you have nothing to fear but fear itself ...
Stop fretting about stuff that will not come to pass !!!
And yet here you are. :shrug:
Who the **** are you to think you speak for me tin foil man? I was there, I lost family and friends, you don't speak for me. Also how dare you lecture me on honor.
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