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My final post on 9-11

BmanMcfly

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I've been getting far too worked up trying to get points across... lost in the translation of dry text and the odd picture.

Now, whatever the situation about the PNAC reports, and why there wasn't any identifying wreckage, nothing with a number, a serial number, whatever, whether flight 93 was shot down to protect the country, or taken down in a heroic sacrifice. Whether the towers could collapse naturally AS IT DID WITH the levels of work involved and the acceleration involved. Even IF the PNAC document DIDN'T call for 'A new pearl Harbor' in order to accomplish their military objectives into the next century, a plan which called for two simultaneous wars, one of them being the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

At what point does it get where you don't think SOMETHING WRONG started that day.... I mean, why would someone half-way around the world give two ****s about how 'free' our country is??? If they are legitimate terrorists, they hate us because the US is the 'bully of the world' to large segments of the world.

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??

Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...

The only times I am sure Bush told the truth about 9-11 was when he said "you're either with US or against US"... but the people thought that the 'US' included them... The US he meant was him and his 'cronies'... the people that ultimately planned and orchestrated it... whether it was by instigating an attack, knowing it was coming and 'allowing it to occur', or the deep covert tactics as I still do suspect.

Think about it... the manhattan project was kept secret FOR YEARS before a single whistleblower came out... JFK was dead for close to 30 years before any real whistleblowers came out. This time any whistle blowers are demonized.

Can't you see the LIES??? I mean, if YOU HONESTLY are believing 'that we have to give up our rights and civil liberties, in the name of safety because the terrorists hate us because of our rights and liberties'... I mean, have you ever actually thought this belief set through, for yourselves??

So, I got a little too heated lately, so I'm not going to debate this issue for some time... all I'm asking, is do a gut check of where the world is today BECAUSE of 9-11... and really ask yourself why you would be so interested in demonize those who MOSTLY have a few questions that they don't feel were properly looked into... This is beyond the science, beyond the theories, just honestly... did you ever think that you'd have to have someone look at your junk to get on a plane (even if it is on a computer monitor)?? It was bad enough having to take off my shoes.

So, even if the government did ON 9-11 was good and well... how is it that 9-11 was conjured so many times in the aftermath in order to justify passing anti-constitutional legislation, like the "Orwellian named" patriot act? I thought after tragedy we mourned, we figured out what happened, and then we seek justice. We should have presented the evidence against bin laden to extradite him to the US.... The afghans aren't are enemies like that, but then in our 'search and arrest' operation we 'accidentally' took over their country and now police the opium trade, shipping it over to europe and the US on the black market, where the US govt will then place you in custody where you might have to work for 20cents/hr to get reduced time.

Can't you see the disconnect?? Can't you feel it in your gut?

You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...

Finally, I know some of you gripe at being called a 'sheep' by truthers... here's the deal... a sheep cannot conceive in it's mind that the hand that feeds it one day will eventually be the hand to slit it's throat. That's the problem with dependence, and the government more and more is making people habituated to being dependent on govt.

Really... before you try to debunk this... just sit back and ponder it... please.
 
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usda select

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I've been getting far too worked up trying to get points across... lost in the translation of dry text and the odd picture.

Now, whatever the situation about the PNAC reports, and why there wasn't any identifying wreckage, nothing with a number, a serial number, whatever, whether flight 93 was shot down to protect the country, or taken down in a heroic sacrifice. Whether the towers could collapse naturally AS IT DID WITH the levels of work involved and the acceleration involved. Even IF the PNAC document DIDN'T call for 'A new pearl Harbor' in order to accomplish their military objectives into the next century, a plan which called for two simultaneous wars, one of them being the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

At what point does it get where you don't think SOMETHING WRONG started that day.... I mean, why would someone half-way around the world give two ****s about how 'free' our country is??? If they are legitimate terrorists, they hate us because the US is the 'bully of the world' to large segments of the world.
Because American exports, they feel, bastardize their society leading to promiscuity, acceptance of more than one point of view, and a non religion based society. The exports reach around the world. They are not on the "other side" This is ignorance on your part.

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???
Not at all. Had parts of it been enacted prior to 9/11, we likely would not be talking about 9/11 right now.

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??
If that is the case, yes.

Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
Not so much. Often times victims families never feel that justice was served. Half? Puhleeze.... you're just making things up; again.

The only times I am sure Bush told the truth about 9-11 was when he said "you're either with US or against US"... but the people thought that the 'US' included them... The US he meant was him and his 'cronies'... the people that ultimately planned and orchestrated it... whether it was by instigating an attack, knowing it was coming and 'allowing it to occur', or the deep covert tactics as I still do suspect.
I'm never sure you told the truth...ever.

Bush was not wrong about who attacked us; it was Osama Bin Laden's group Al Queda.
Bush was not wrong going after their training camps in Afghanistan. As a result of their training being disrupted, you see morons setting their under ware on fire or leaving their house keys on the key ring on cars they tried to blow up. Bad training = poor performance in the field. You should thank Bush for that.
Bush was not wrong when he said our law enforcement needs new tools.
Bush was not wrong when he gave them the new tools.

Bush was wrong when he decided Iraq was a second front in the war on terror.
Bush was wrong when he assumed that because we were going into Afghanistan we'd be called imperialists anyway so we may as well go into Iraq and secure the oil
Bush was wrong when he cut taxes in a time of war
Bush was wrong too often to count in his administration but not at the outset of the response to 9/11.

Think about it... the manhattan project was kept secret FOR YEARS before a single whistleblower came out...
Stalin knew about it at Yalta. You're simply ignorant of history.

JFK was dead for close to 30 years before any real whistleblowers came out.
Snicker....lol

This time any whistle blowers are demonized.
[/quote]
Unlike a real whistle blower who reports malfeasance, you guys simply sling whatever you can and hope it sticks.

No bombs at ground zero to fit into the controlled demo fantasy? Invent thermite at the scene.
Phone calls from planes detailing hijackings? Claim the phone calls were faked; after claiming the calls couldn't have been made.
Planes not shot down on 9/11? Claim falsely that shooting down a commercial plane would have been easy when there are over 2,000 in the air in NEADS
Can't come up with a reason for the Pentagon to be hit by a plane? Swear it was a missile and hundreds of pieces of evidence were planted though nobody saw any one plant any thing; ever.

It literally never ceases to amaze me how contorted you guys can become.

Can't you see the LIES??? I mean, if YOU HONESTLY are believing 'that we have to give up our rights and civil liberties, in the name of safety because the terrorists hate us because of our rights and liberties'... I mean, have you ever actually thought this belief set through, for yourselves??
You're simply ignorant on this point. We have never, ever, had unabridged rights in this country. You could never yell "fire" in a crowded theater legally. You could never broadcast troop movements during a time of war. You could never point a gun at someone and think that you're protected by any law whatsoever.


So, I got a little too heated lately, so I'm not going to debate this issue for some time... all I'm asking, is do a gut check of where the world is today BECAUSE of 9-11... and really ask yourself why you would be so interested in demonize those who MOSTLY have a few questions...
You're not telling the truth. You don't have questions....you make accusations and totally unsubstantiated claims such as the passengers from the flights on 9/11 were put into a pit or something like that.

that they don't feel were properly looked into...
Congressional investigations, a Commission Report, FBI investigations into all four plane crashes. Local investigations subordinate to those....you're simply not looking at the available evidence.

This is beyond the science, beyond the theories, just honestly... did you ever think that you'd have to have someone look at your junk to get on a plane (even if it is on a computer monitor)?? It was bad enough having to take off my shoes.
If it saves one life or one planeload of passengers...totally worth it. If you don't like it, catch a ferry or drive to where you have to go.


So, even if the government did ON 9-11 was good and well... how is it that 9-11 was conjured so many times in the aftermath in order to justify passing anti-constitutional legislation, like the "Orwellian named" patriot act?
See above for the right answer to your lame question.

I thought after tragedy we mourned, we figured out what happened, and then we seek justice.
We have done that. The perps are dead. The ones that organized it are in prison, and we're still going after other organizers. You're right for once.

We should have presented the evidence against bin laden to extradite him to the US....
Must be in custody to extradite.

The afghans aren't are enemies like that, but then in our 'search and arrest' operation we 'accidentally' took over their country and now police the opium trade, shipping it over to europe and the US on the black market, where the US govt will then place you in custody where you might have to work for 20cents/hr to get reduced time.
Now the US is supplying opium to Europe and the black market. See you're not asking questions, you're making wild, unfounded accusations.

Can't you see the disconnect?? Can't you feel it in your gut?
Between you and logic? You'd have to be blind not to see it.


You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
And when you stop dreaming, perhaps you'll wake up and smell what you've been shoveling.


Finally, I know some of you gripe at being called a 'sheep' by truthers... here's the deal... a sheep cannot conceive in it's mind that the hand that feeds it one day will eventually be the hand to slit it's throat. That's the problem with dependence, and the government more and more is making people habituated to being dependent on govt.

Really... before you try to debunk this... just sit back and ponder it... please.
[/QUOTE]

Debunk what? Nothing factual was mentioned; just more rhetoric and not very convincing arguments at that. As for sheep, I'll tell your fellow truthers you said "baaaa".

What absolutely tickles me more than anything else about the movement is this clam about sheep and the claim that the main stream media you all think we only watch is controlled. Really? I quite often examine the twoofer websites; nearly all of them have the exact same stories when they can afford the bandwidth to stay operational. The same stories down to the last syllable. No editorial review; no independent reporting, no examination of anything in the report....zilch. Its' called a scoop and scat; you take someone else's story and publish it and move on to the next. And the "movment", the sheep herd you willfully admit yourself into, are nothing more than receptacles for the droppings from the sites. No muss, no fuss.

I mean, look at this post yourself; "Even IF the PNAC document DIDN'T call for 'A new pearl Harbor' in order to accomplish their military objectives into the next century,". Even if it didn't? In no way did it call for any such event. Here is the actual passage, read it for the first time:

Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor.
Domestic politics and
industrial policy will shape the pace and
content of transformation as much as the
requirements of current missions. A
decision to suspend or terminate aircraft
carrier production, as recommended by this
report and as justified by the clear direction
of military technology, will cause great
upheaval. Likewise, systems entering
production today – the F-22 fighter, for
example – will be in service inventories for
decades to come. Wise management of this
process will consist in large measure of
figuring out the right moments to halt
production of current-paradigm weapons
and shift to radically new designs. The
expense associated with some programs can
make them roadblocks to the larger process
of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter
program, at a total of approximately $200
billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus,
this report advocates a two-stage process of
change – transition and transformation –
over the coming decades.
Here is the link:

WebCite query result

So why in the world did you bring it up had you endeavored to read even the paragraph which was talking about the transformation of defense policy? The truth is you didn't. You and the other sheep saw this on one of your websites and you and the other sheep were off to the races repeating the lie over and over. When you come back and "ask your questions" again, you'll regurgitate the lie once more. So will creativedreams.

YOU are the sheep.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Part of the reason why your point 'isn't becoming fact for many people' is because it's mostly hypothesis. And what isn't hypothesis is sometimes based on eye witness accounts and 'expert' testimonies. But if I want I can find an eye witness which swears that Elvis is still alive, Aliens harvested their eyelashes, and that the Adkins diet is a safe and effective diet plan. I can also find experts that will tell you eating at White-Castle is health . . . and that irradiated water is good for your soul.

Ok - someone being *there* or *knowing alot of stuff* means nothing and most people *know* this is just a fact of life.

So - that adresses most theories and posts right there.
Your argument lacks substantial proof or evidence - it's just a theory.

At what point does it get where you don't think SOMETHING WRONG started that day.... I mean, why would someone half-way around the world give two ****s about how 'free' our country is??? If they are legitimate terrorists, they hate us because the US is the 'bully of the world' to large segments of the world.
Now - here's another part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. You believe and say stupid things like this.
"Why would they care?"
You need to take some time to LEARN why they *DO* care - why they have an opinion about us, our culture and our lifestyle. Dig deep into history and you'll be surprised and shocked at where their beliefs and opinoins DO come from. It's really interesting and very complicated.

But- yes- they DO care. THAT is not some estranged conspiracy that someone just *poof* came out with - please understand - many of *them* admittedly and hatedly *don't like us*

[quopte]Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???[/quote]

No, it doesn't bother me if it was written prior to 9/11 - because it was never presented "purely in response to 9/11"
Fighting terrorism is our new cold-war focus. With the Russians subdued, the Nazi's vanquished - we have to have something to focus on and the terrrorists are it. They were it for a long time before 9/11 - but you just don't seem interested in those facts.

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??

Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
Just the firefighters?
Just their families?

I believe a lot of people share the feeling and thought - but don't buy into the conspiracy theories presented, either - because that doesn't help when one is seeking real answers and trying to understand 'why'.

The need to know ' why' is the reason the myth of the Leviathan was invented by the Greeks - and why many religions center (centered) around sacrifices to the gods to appease them after a tragedy.

The desperate need to understand what is inexplicable is what leads to conspiracies, religion, war, blame-laying and finger pointing . . . as well as other things like witchhunts and so forth.

Your need to understand something that is hard to swallow has led you down this path of paranoia, resentment (of regular citizens) and frustration - but at the same time you immediately and quickly right off FACTS and raise questions like "why on earth would they actually CARE about us at all?" . . . this shows that you want to find an answer that suits your desires in life - and you obviously have no real interest in *truth* because if you did then you'd be eyeballs deep in a stack of history books tracing their problems with us back to the conception of Islam and the birth of Christ.

You need to stop - and spend more time understanding history, psychology, and sociology and other such important issues that are in play in human-history and nature.
 
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MaggieD

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Can't you see the disconnect?? Can't you feel it in your gut?
McFly, I understand your passion. I even admire it. I've watched your posts, rarely engaged, and witnessed a fair amount of ridicule thrown your way.

I understand your passion because I have a very good friend who spent years on the subject...to the point where she lost friends with her obsession. I admire it because we need to ask questions and refuse to accept government truth out-of-hand. And you have done that, well, admirably.

Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. The reason they are successful in recruiting believers is that they contain not only a certain amount of truth, but many unanswered questions. Unanswered questions beg answers. One group, truthers, wants every nuance explained. Another group, the rest of us, understand that many things in tragedies like this will never be able to be explained. Coincidences, faulty science, mis-applied science combine to bring enough "truth" to the table to cause skeptics such as yourself to doubt. Understandable.

Example: Where truthers show us eye-witness testimony that people really DID hear explosions at Ground Zero, truthers extrapolate those explosions were explosives. The rest of us understand that thousands of tons of concrete pancaking down floor-by-floor can be easily misinterpretted by the most unreliable source of all -- eye-witness testimony. Boom-Boom-Boom-Boom.

The rest of us know in our hearts that if it was a black flag operation, we will probaby never-ever know. Many of the rest of us also believe that the amount of people it would take to make this a black flag operation would likely mean that someone, someone, would come forward. The rewards of capitalism are great. And seductive. The abilities of human beings to keep secrets like this stretches the imagination to the breaking point.

Anyhow, I'll end this where I started it. I admire your curiosity and understand your passion. I'm just not a believer. ;-)
 

Ned Racine

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In all of the entries here and on other Forums does anyone recall much, or any Real compassion on the part of the "Truthers" for the victims of 9/11 ????

Does anyone recall any even partial entry about what it might have been like inside those planes , or for those at Windows on the World or in the 15 seconds of consciousness on say the 93rd floor of the North Tower as flames , heat and debris cut across everything OR how a few in the So.Tower elevators fell possibly 60+ floors once the 2nd plane (UA175) cut the cables at the buildings core. Some below heard the screams, and not to forget those jumping 90 Stories to escape the flames.

Little of this ever is focused on by the techno Truth Brigade. There is a void in humanity as they seek to confirm their darkest fears and think in terms of "Their Enemies" as being all powerful and batting like 700 time after time. Are there any Gamblers, or Horse Players among them ????
 

Aunt Spiker

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Very true - they do seem quite void of the pain that it really caused and merely on their own witch hunt - with their sole purpose to make the government into the bad guys.
Why can't the buy guys who were the actual bad guys just *be* the bad guys? Why the need to construct a web and then get caught up in it?

Truthers accuse the government of involvement - and having a secret, hidden agenda.
What is the agenda of the Truthers, then?

Why aren't the actual facts believable to them?

Dr Hawass really summed up conspiracies and the 'need to know' when someone honestly asked him, "why do you think people need to believe that aliens helped build the pyramids?"
Dr Hawass answered, "People love the mystery. They don't want to accept that *we now know the truth* - people want to always be "discovering" and never really want the answer to be found"

I think that's how many Truthers are - I've met quite a few in real life and their entire lives, not just beliefs about 9-11, show that they live in need of constant search, discover, fact find and assigning purpose or reason to everything.

And per calling everyone else a 'sheep' - well - I think it's just pot meet kettle.
We believe that the truth is known - we accept it, though it sucks. . . and Truthers call us sheep. Claiming that we're just blinding following along behind the shepherd.
So - what if I became a Truther and believed their version of events - wouldn't that just, then, really make me *their* sheep?
 
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BmanMcfly

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Not at all. Had parts of it been enacted prior to 9/11, we likely would not be talking about 9/11 right now.
So, you think it's a good thing that for 'crimes' as petty as jaywalking that a person should be treated as a 'domestic terrorist' and potentially 'disappeared'??

If that is the case, yes.
Yes, this is definitively the case...

Not so much. Often times victims families never feel that justice was served. Half? Puhleeze.... you're just making things up; again.
I said 'close to half'...

Bush was not wrong about who attacked us; it was Osama Bin Laden's group Al Queda.
Then why didn't he present the evidence and prevent an invasion of the country?

Bush was not wrong going after their training camps in Afghanistan. As a result of their training being disrupted, you see morons setting their under ware on fire or leaving their house keys on the key ring on cars they tried to blow up. Bad training = poor performance in the field. You should thank Bush for that.
Underwear bomber was let on the plane without a passport BY A CIA AGENT.

Bush was not wrong when he said our law enforcement needs new tools.
Bush was not wrong when he gave them the new tools.
Ya... torture everyone, spy on everyone... we need to know everything about everyone or people might commit abhorrent crimes like thinking independently.

You're simply ignorant on this point. We have never, ever, had unabridged rights in this country. You could never yell "fire" in a crowded theater legally. You could never broadcast troop movements during a time of war. You could never point a gun at someone and think that you're protected by any law whatsoever.
That's because rights come with responsibilities... it is irresponsible to yell fire in a theater, it is treason to broadcast troop movements, you never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy... and well, if you point a gun at someone and they are quicker on the trigger they have every right to blast you away.

If it saves one life or one planeload of passengers...totally worth it. If you don't like it, catch a ferry or drive to where you have to go.
Read the constitution... particularly the fourth amendment... if you don't like to be secure in your persons or property, you might feel more at home in : china, North korea, and a laundry list of other countries where these are merely privileges accorded to the people by their governments.

Must be in custody to extradite.
Go back to the MSM reports... google news is an excellent tool for this, and see what the afghan government was saying at the time. (Hint : If we showed the evidence they would have tracked him down and extradited him)

Now the US is supplying opium to Europe and the black market. See you're not asking questions, you're making wild, unfounded accusations.
No, even heraldo rivera interviewed a general in afghanistan who said (to paraphrase) : "We don't like it, but if we don't help them grow the opium then the taliban will come in and let them" and "we supply them with the seeds and fertilizer"... shipping it worldwide is just an extension of helping them grow it...

WebCite query result

So why in the world did you bring it up had you endeavored to read even the paragraph which was talking about the transformation of defense policy? The truth is you didn't. You and the other sheep saw this on one of your websites and you and the other sheep were off to the races repeating the lie over and over. When you come back and "ask your questions" again, you'll regurgitate the lie once more. So will creativedreams.

YOU are the sheep.
I've read that document at LEAST 3 times... and you didn't supply enough of the document to provide the proper context. For example : What is the 'transformation'?
What is the 'current mission'?? Once you understand those two meanings you will see that this is an open call. And not the... whatever you seem to think the quote is saying.
 

BmanMcfly

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Part of the reason why your point 'isn't becoming fact for many people' is because it's mostly hypothesis. And what isn't hypothesis is sometimes based on eye witness accounts and 'expert' testimonies. But if I want I can find an eye witness which swears that Elvis is still alive, Aliens harvested their eyelashes, and that the Adkins diet is a safe and effective diet plan. I can also find experts that will tell you eating at White-Castle is health . . . and that irradiated water is good for your soul.

Ok - someone being *there* or *knowing alot of stuff* means nothing and most people *know* this is just a fact of life.

So - that adresses most theories and posts right there.
Your argument lacks substantial proof or evidence - it's just a theory.
So much less so then you realize... eyewitnesses only count if they don't oppose the 'official story'... people forget about the van bombs that went off that day and those perpetrators arrested, about the mossad agents that were arrested, about the lobbies of the towers, etc, etc, etc... I'm not going to delve any further into it.

Now - here's another part of the reason why people don't take you guys seriously. You believe and say stupid things like this.
"Why would they care?"
You need to take some time to LEARN why they *DO* care - why they have an opinion about us, our culture and our lifestyle. Dig deep into history and you'll be surprised and shocked at where their beliefs and opinoins DO come from. It's really interesting and very complicated.

But- yes- they DO care. THAT is not some estranged conspiracy that someone just *poof* came out with - please understand - many of *them* admittedly and hatedly *don't like us*
Yes... the biggest problem from the muslims of the world is that there's not any muslims that will go out and say 'ya, flying planes into buildings is WRONG.'... even where different groups disagree, they will all be willing to justify why people must die in certain conditions. It makes it difficult if not impossible to distinguish 'good' groups from 'bad' groups...

Ultimately to address your point, which I feel is valid, because many of them DO admittedly HATE the US... we should try to ask 'why' that is the case? I'll tell you, it's NOT because 'we are free'...

No, it doesn't bother me if it was written prior to 9/11 - because it was never presented "purely in response to 9/11"
Fighting terrorism is our new cold-war focus. With the Russians subdued, the Nazi's vanquished - we have to have something to focus on and the terrrorists are it. They were it for a long time before 9/11 - but you just don't seem interested in those facts.
Ok, that's fine... in that case, does it bother you that the legislation wasn't even written by an american?

Just the firefighters?
Just their families?

I believe a lot of people share the feeling and thought - but don't buy into the conspiracy theories presented, either - because that doesn't help when one is seeking real answers and trying to understand 'why'.
That is true... and you don't HAVE to believe that this was an elaborate conspiracy to see that something doesn't add up between the event, the response and where that has brought our society almost 10 years later.

Your need to understand something that is hard to swallow has led you down this path of paranoia, resentment (of regular citizens) and frustration - but at the same time you immediately and quickly right off FACTS and raise questions like "why on earth would they actually CARE about us at all?" . . . this shows that you want to find an answer that suits your desires in life - and you obviously have no real interest in *truth* because if you did then you'd be eyeballs deep in a stack of history books tracing their problems with us back to the conception of Islam and the birth of Christ.
You misunderstood my point... perhaps I should have used 'indifference' rather then 'lack of caring'... as for the why you're presenting... that's more like a minor factor of what I'm talking about, and dates back hundreds of years... I was referring to something different... not completely unrelated but definitely different.
 

BmanMcfly

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I understand your passion because I have a very good friend who spent years on the subject...to the point where she lost friends with her obsession. I admire it because we need to ask questions and refuse to accept government truth out-of-hand. And you have done that, well, admirably.
Thanks... and yes, there IS a danger of going down this road where people become obsessed, and some drive themselves crazy... it's all about maintaining a balance, but on the topic of 9-11 it's been getting to the point where I'd have to spend HOURS countering nonsense points resourcing countless articles and relevant information, and I AM passionate about this... I have been in this 'fight' for years BEFORE 9-11... confronting politicians on their open corruption, putting out my voice against globalization, and so on... I came to this site HOPING that I could get PROVEN wrong (rather then TOLD I AM wrong), but then my points get met with cleverly built and disguised straw men.... and I've been getting to frustrated, so I came to the conclusion that it's best to just step away from the topic for a while.

Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. The reason they are successful in recruiti...ences, faulty science, mis-applied science combine to bring enough "truth" to the table to cause skeptics such as yourself to doubt. Understandable.
Not always... take OKC, there's news reports of the FBI taking secondary bombs out of the building. Never to be mentioned again. So, when people brought up these secondary devices they are met with 'that's just a rumor'... later on that rumor gets called a 'conspiracy theory' as a label.

Example: Where truthers show us eye-witness testimony that people really DID hear explosions at Ground Zero, truthers extrapolate those explosions were explosives. The rest of us understand that thousands of tons of concrete pancaking down floor-by-floor can be easily misinterpretted by the most unreliable source of all -- eye-witness testimony. Boom-Boom-Boom-Boom.
But then you listen to the cop radio, where they arrested people with van bombs on the site, chased them down and the van exploded before they could investigate further.... anyway...

The rest of us know in our hearts that if it was a black flag operation, we will probaby never-ever know. Many of the rest of us also believe that the amount of people it would take to make this a black flag operation would likely mean that someone, someone, would come forward. The rewards of capitalism are great. And seductive. The abilities of human beings to keep secrets like this stretches the imagination to the breaking point.
There are a number of 'whistleblowers' on different aspects of 9-11... but they are categorically denied, their credentials smeared and dismissed as 'theorists' along with the rest.

Anyhow, I'll end this where I started it. I admire your curiosity and understand your passion. I'm just not a believer. ;-)
Thanks. Cheers.

Is it your last post? really? do you promise?
No, not last post... the last I'm going to be debating issues surrounding 9-11...

In all of the entries here and on other Forums does anyone recall much, or any Real compassion on the part of the "Truthers" for the victims of 9/11 ????
Now, is it REAL compassion that when there are ANY of the victims families that are calling for a new investigation... that's all, no conspiracy theories, just they don't feel their questions were answered, you know, REASONABLE questions like 'who got fired / demoted for a failure that day?' Now, what are you going to tell that person, who actually lost a loved one (and I KNOW there are a good number of the victims families, who just feel that the investigation was lacking and want their questions answered, they had a campaign to raise money to put the linked video on tv as a commercial), and feel that something was wrong, or that they have more questions that need answers.

If we put it on that level... how would you justify not having the matter investigated by an independent group WITH subpoena powers?? The money? Tell them, 'the reports are good enough'??

Why do YOU feel that it is compassionate to deny them that??

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Does it really HONOR the dead that we have now instigated invasions of foreign countries?? Does it honor THEM if we are doing this to keep US safe?? I honestly don't see how the killing and torture of foreigners who might simply be picking up arms because someone is invading their homeland as 'justice'... or do you actually still believe that the army is looking for bin laden???


At least in MY opinion, it is a DISHONOR to those that died and their families that 9-11 be used for this type of pretext and it be allowed to continue. It's also a dishonor to the army to be sacrificing themselves in an unjust war.

Just because I make every effort to objectively show the facts, though I will permit myself to speculate on issues where I probably shouldn't, does not mean I'm not sympathetic to the loss.

One little bit of criminology that I DO know is that criminals that don't get caught get MORE brazen in their crimes.

Finally, on the topic of war with the middle east... they still live by honor codes where you kill their family, and they will kill you or die trying to kill you. So, the longer the conflict stays the more they fuel the opposition to keep fighting... the fact is that, even if we accept the reasons for 9-11 to be true... we don't belong there.
 

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Gee he wasn't being truthful. I, for one, am shocked. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read the title "my final post ON 9-11". I don't intend to quit debating, I'm just not getting into that topic anymore. This is just my last posts...

Be thankful... when you're talking the most nonsense I won't be taking part anymore.
 

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So much less so then you realize... eyewitnesses only count if they don't oppose the 'official story'... people forget about the van bombs that went off that day and those perpetrators arrested, about the mossad agents that were arrested, about the lobbies of the towers, etc, etc, etc... I'm not going to delve any further into it.



Yes... the biggest problem from the muslims of the world is that there's not any muslims that will go out and say 'ya, flying planes into buildings is WRONG.'... even where different groups disagree, they will all be willing to justify why people must die in certain conditions. It makes it difficult if not impossible to distinguish 'good' groups from 'bad' groups...

Ultimately to address your point, which I feel is valid, because many of them DO admittedly HATE the US... we should try to ask 'why' that is the case? I'll tell you, it's NOT because 'we are free'...



Ok, that's fine... in that case, does it bother you that the legislation wasn't even written by an american?



That is true... and you don't HAVE to believe that this was an elaborate conspiracy to see that something doesn't add up between the event, the response and where that has brought our society almost 10 years later.



You misunderstood my point... perhaps I should have used 'indifference' rather then 'lack of caring'... as for the why you're presenting... that's more like a minor factor of what I'm talking about, and dates back hundreds of years... I was referring to something different... not completely unrelated but definitely different.
Curiosity kills - have you read the entire Patriot Act and all of it's alterations, expirations and enhancements?

Who cares *when* it was written or *why* it was written or even who wrote the damn thing - those things don't matter.
What does matter is *that* it was written *that* it was passed and *that* it has been amended and altered - and is still is in use, today.

You're focusing on the wrong things - perhaps if you focused on the right things you wouldn't be continually hitting the same wall.
 

usda select

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Curiosity kills - have you read the entire Patriot Act and all of it's alterations, expirations and enhancements?

Who cares *when* it was written or *why* it was written or even who wrote the damn thing - those things don't matter.
What does matter is *that* it was written *that* it was passed and *that* it has been amended and altered - and is still is in use, today.

You're focusing on the wrong things - perhaps if you focused on the right things you wouldn't be continually hitting the same wall.
A great amount of the Patriot act were things that were voted down by Congress previously. Given the obvious and painful restraints put on the FBI and local PD's that were highlighted by 9/11, the Congress realized the error of their ways. The result; a much safer country.
 

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Read the title "my final post ON 9-11". I don't intend to quit debating, I'm just not getting into that topic anymore. This is just my last posts...

Be thankful... when you're talking the most nonsense I won't be taking part anymore.
I stated a while back that your only agenda was to get people to talk to you on the Internet.
You've done nothing to disuade that self-evident truth; hence all of your outrageous unfounded claims and faux anger. You're the internet equivalent to a carnival barker. Your lazy research and idiotic claims just are nothing more than funny.
 

BmanMcfly

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Curiosity kills - have you read the entire Patriot Act and all of it's alterations, expirations and enhancements?
Ya... pretty well... Total information awareness, state and federal crimes are domestic terrorism, controlling the movement of funds, ya... real freedom loving legislation.

Who cares *when* it was written
When is important because of the pressures involved in passing it after 9-11...

or *why* it was written
If it was written to enable a police state in the US, wouldn't that concern you?? I mean, I couldn't prove that this was the case, but at least the original legislation and the first reauthorization are completely opposite the constitutional view of laws, in almost every sense.

or even who wrote the damn thing - those things don't matter.
I'd say it matters, how is a vietnamese lawyer going to have the knowledge and understandings of the constitution, and how are you certain this is being written in OUR interests rather than HIS interests, when he's studied HIS laws and customs, and not americas??

What does matter is *that* it was written *that* it was passed and *that* it has been amended and altered - and is still is in use, today.
Mostly for drug crimes... now, if you want I can start searching for all the media examples of FBI/CIA drug running, then a different section of the agency polices the drugs, and incarcerates anyone caught using the product they are bringing in. It's a fact that opium production has been cultivated at record rates every year for the past number of years SINCE the invasion.

It's also a fact that the patriot act gets used thousands of times a year in drug related cases.
U.S. Uses Terror Law to Pursue Crimes From Drugs to Swindling - NYTimes.com

If the bill was passed to stop terrorism, what does that have to do with terrorism?? Oh, it 'funds' terrorists... but since on the other end we're helping to grow and / or ship the drugs INTO the country, why would the focus be on that??

I don't think it's as simple as money either, because a person in prison is not only profitable worker potentially, 20cents / hour and favorable treatment for good work... so, it's also about the control.

You're focusing on the wrong things - perhaps if you focused on the right things you wouldn't be continually hitting the same wall.
I am focused on making sure that the country stays a republic... to put it simply, and most can't seem to see how it is at risk... and I mean dire risk at this point... not so much as immediate, but imminent. I don't think it's really avoidable anymore.

As I said in the first post, a sheep is incapable of conceptualizing that the hand that feeds one day is the same hand that will come and slit it's throat some day. So far, the sheep are being 'sheared'... not slaughtered.... if we don't realize where the world is headed societally if we don't change the path soon, then we will be about as effective as sheep protesting the act of eating mutton.

Just for the comic image, picture a pasture of sheep protesting eating sheep... and the farmers looking at each other... 'damn sheep are protesting again, you hungry?'

I know I know, that 'can't happen in out modern society'.... to spite the fact that these types of systems have cost in the area of 150 million people... NOT INCLUDING Hitler, in just the past century. Think what the old Soviet russian system under stalin could have done with today's technology??

It's not to be paranoid, it's to be aware and active enough to see what's going on and to put the effort to change things in a better way, in the little ways you can....

It's like the Gandhi quote, "Even though what you do seems insignificant, it's very important that you keep doing it."
 

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His last post on this topic will be when LDS Missionaries get invited into Somalia, or when D.C. gives it's 3 Electoral Votes to the GOP.
 

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Ya... pretty well... Total information awareness, state and federal crimes are domestic terrorism, controlling the movement of funds, ya... real freedom loving legislation.



When is important because of the pressures involved in passing it after 9-11...



If it was written to enable a police state in the US, wouldn't that concern you?? I mean, I couldn't prove that this was the case, but at least the original legislation and the first reauthorization are completely opposite the constitutional view of laws, in almost every sense.



I'd say it matters, how is a vietnamese lawyer going to have the knowledge and understandings of the constitution, and how are you certain this is being written in OUR interests rather than HIS interests, when he's studied HIS laws and customs, and not americas??



Mostly for drug crimes... now, if you want I can start searching for all the media examples of FBI/CIA drug running, then a different section of the agency polices the drugs, and incarcerates anyone caught using the product they are bringing in. It's a fact that opium production has been cultivated at record rates every year for the past number of years SINCE the invasion.

It's also a fact that the patriot act gets used thousands of times a year in drug related cases.
U.S. Uses Terror Law to Pursue Crimes From Drugs to Swindling - NYTimes.com

If the bill was passed to stop terrorism, what does that have to do with terrorism?? Oh, it 'funds' terrorists... but since on the other end we're helping to grow and / or ship the drugs INTO the country, why would the focus be on that??

I don't think it's as simple as money either, because a person in prison is not only profitable worker potentially, 20cents / hour and favorable treatment for good work... so, it's also about the control.



I am focused on making sure that the country stays a republic... to put it simply, and most can't seem to see how it is at risk... and I mean dire risk at this point... not so much as immediate, but imminent. I don't think it's really avoidable anymore.

As I said in the first post, a sheep is incapable of conceptualizing that the hand that feeds one day is the same hand that will come and slit it's throat some day. So far, the sheep are being 'sheared'... not slaughtered.... if we don't realize where the world is headed societally if we don't change the path soon, then we will be about as effective as sheep protesting the act of eating mutton.

Just for the comic image, picture a pasture of sheep protesting eating sheep... and the farmers looking at each other... 'damn sheep are protesting again, you hungry?'

I know I know, that 'can't happen in out modern society'.... to spite the fact that these types of systems have cost in the area of 150 million people... NOT INCLUDING Hitler, in just the past century. Think what the old Soviet russian system under stalin could have done with today's technology??

It's not to be paranoid, it's to be aware and active enough to see what's going on and to put the effort to change things in a better way, in the little ways you can....

It's like the Gandhi quote, "Even though what you do seems insignificant, it's very important that you keep doing it."
Channeling Gandhi. Oh brother.
 

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You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
Do you see yourself as Neo or Morpheus?
 

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Well - that settles it.

Bman, I gave you an open opportunity and you just started talking about eating sheep and Gandhi. :shrug: If anything we should be equated to cattle. . . because sheep aren't traditionally consumed (at least in the US) - they're just used for their wool. Cattle on the other had are raised and then slaughtered for their meat, bone and hide.

I don't believe you've read the Patriot Act in the slightest bit of depth. Whereas I have - because I truly did have interest in what everyone else was so twisted up over.
I have concerns over the act - individual concerns over portions of it and certain goals of certain parts. But I'm not constructing a web of conspiracy to support my opinions - I'm purely letting the facts of the bill itself support my opinions. No web necessary.

Same thing with the Health Care Act - and other things. I've never disagrees 100% with anything in it's entirety - but in portions, yes.

To me that's the sign of a reasonable person - when they're willing to say "I don't agree with this and this - but right here, this line, this isn't that bad" :shrug:
Even I with the TARP and AAHCA found things within them that weren't actually a problem.

If you're frustrated it's purely because of your own blockers you've been wearing and the brick wall you built around yourself.
 
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I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

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Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the patriot act, which eroded many american civil liberties in the name of 'fighting terrorism', was written PRIOR to 9-11???

Doesn't it BOTHER YOU that the firefighters are many dead and dying because of the lack of support of the government??

Doesn't it bother you that even ONE of the victims families feels that justice was not served?? Even though the number is closer to half...
B'man but NOT one of those points shows, or even mildly infers, that it was a deliberate act by your government.

Just because Bush disgracefully took advantage afterwards, showed not enough care to the Fire Fighters and left families asking for more, does NOT mean they should be accused of causing it ... don't you see that ???

Think about it... the manhattan project was kept secret FOR YEARS before a single whistleblower came out... JFK was dead for close to 30 years before any real whistleblowers came out. This time any whistle blowers are demonized.
And those happened LONG before telephones, televisions, computers, global travel and comunication became commonplace.

It was easier to keep secrets back then.

It was easier to keep Manhattan secret for it was within extremely isolated geographical areas with very few people around ... but don't forget there still were leaks.

CI Reader Volume 2 Chapter 1

And there is zero credible proof that there is any conspiracy surrounding Kennedys death either ...

The "Magic Bullet" has been proven conclusively to be without merit.

all I'm asking, is do a gut check of where the world is today BECAUSE of 9-11... and really ask yourself why you would be so interested in demonize those who MOSTLY have a few questions that they don't feel were properly looked into... This is beyond the science, beyond the theories, just honestly... did you ever think that you'd have to have someone look at your junk to get on a plane (even if it is on a computer monitor)?? It was bad enough having to take off my shoes.
B'man ... this is all well and good, but mistrust and suspicion alone is NOT enough, you need to understand you need MORE than a general dislike and misgivings about how the world is going before you trumpet claims of mass murder against those you so distrust ... you NEED hard facts, proper evidence ... not speculation and possibilities.

Asking "questions" is alright too ... but a question is not proof of anything and you should be prepared to take on board the answers, not just outright reject them in favour of a personal bias.

But that is what truthers do !!!

Using Loose Change again, as an analogy, it IS personal incredulity and bias which has lead most truthers DESPITE a plethora of articulate and factual information presented to them by people like me ... to utterly reject it.

Do you know how often I have had to argue the obvious asinity of the "hermitically sealed elevator shaft" ... it is absurd beyond belief to think that people in the 21st century with the sum of all human knowledge at their fingertips can still fall for such a self-evident scientific impossibility.

Yet fall they did ... and went tooth-and-nail to defend it !!!

Do you know how often I have argued against the Nibiru guff ... yet anyone with even the merest scintilla of understanding easily saw the (again) impossibility of it ... yet despite bombarding them with legitimate astronomical information, it was outright rejected, because they really do need feel above the rest of us mortals just following da gubmint lie ... they were given REAL facts and found them false, through faith in the conspiracy.

Most conspiracy believers genuinely do "want" it to be true, depsite denial, for not only does it make life more interesting and exciting, it also elevates their own perceived status against us sheeple types ... and will outhand reject all opposing information, even demonstrable truth, preferring their "conspiracy" ... they MAKE reality as they wish it to be !!!

Despite credible infomation refuting such an imbecilic claim as hermetic shafts these people still denied it ... calling me a shill, a sheeple, a disinfo and all the other boring stock phrases ... and for no better reason that they really did WANT AND/OR NEED IT TO TRUE ... for it was against the norm and showed a disliked government, agency, body or individual in a bad light ... it made the baddie a real baddie.

But it is not enough B'man ... you need more than wanting to believe the bad man is bad because he is doing bad things !!!

You also need to learn to do better and more thourough double-checking of facts presented by conspiracy sites ... especially considering how often they have been shown flawed and/or outright lying then you SHOULD in future take them with more than automatic belief and agreement ... you SHOULD subject their claims to the same standards of checking as the opposing.

You should always look equally at infomation that "rejects" your claims as much as supports it ... that is the mark of the true skeptic, if nothing else you can then see and predict which part of your arguments will be attacked and so be better prepared with your defence of it.

Ultimately it is quite simple B'man ... the more outrageous the claim the less likely true in reality !!!

You hear the term 'awake' from truthers, do you ever question what it means?? I'll tell you, the term is the short way of saying "woken up from the american dream". It's not quite as 'drastic' as the change from being a 'battery' in the matrix movie... but when you wake up you start to see things that you didn't notice before. I know, it's good to stay asleep, I like the snooze button myself... but there is an 'awakening'...
No B'man this is just psyco-babble, weak, weak psychological justification for a thinking style you should have grown out of years ago.

People are not as "asleep" as you think ... we all know what is wrong with the world, we do know.

Some of us, like me, have tried to be active in bettering it, as a mother and grand-mother, believe you me, I DO know what is the matter with this world and am not just some empty-minded drone, fed on consumerism and television, soaking up the propaganda ... I need and want a better world for my family and so would not just sit idly by while the evil elites slowly erode all that makes this a good life and world.

Obviously the planet is too big, but we all do our small and important bits ... show some faith in your fellow humans B'man ... for they are not quite as gullible and blindly docile as you think !!!

Go out into the big wide world for a while, travel if you can ... it does broaden the horizons and mind ... it is easy to become too insular and small-minded keeping to a narrow world.

Go and do my challenges ... see for YOURSELF if your grasp of science and physics is good enough.

Go visit Firehouses in Manhatten and see whether those whom were actually there that day support you, and whether their testimonies are what you "think" they mean ???

Put your beliefs up to real world scrutiny, find out if it is actually you whom is right or wrong about these things ... the ability to change and adapt is within all of us, most of us have been, at some younger point in our lives, where you are now, so we do understand you more than you know !!!

Ten years from now B'man, you may very well look back and cringe (like the dodgy hair and fashion thing) at how innocent and naive you were in your thinking.

Finally, I know some of you gripe at being called a 'sheep' by truthers... here's the deal... a sheep cannot conceive in it's mind that the hand that feeds it one day will eventually be the hand to slit it's throat. That's the problem with dependence, and the government more and more is making people habituated to being dependent on govt.

Really... before you try to debunk this... just sit back and ponder it... please.
B'man, my country has more government dependancy than yours ... we have a free health system, education system, more free services than yours and yet we haven't fallen that much into Hell.

Yes, we do have some, just some, whom are wholly dependant by choice and are a drain and waste of resources but it hasn't ruined civilisation as we know it ... most people are still good, good enough and concerned enough to not allow things to go too far ... history is littered with proof of this !!!

Life changes, moves on but it should not be feared, the unknown is fearful ... but mostly you have nothing to fear but fear itself ...

Stop fretting about stuff that will not come to pass !!!
 

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No, not last post... the last I'm going to be debating issues surrounding 9-11...


And yet here you are. :shrug:


At least in MY opinion, it is a DISHONOR to those that died and their families that 9-11 be used for this type of pretext and it be allowed to continue. It's also a dishonor to the army to be sacrificing themselves in an unjust war..


Who the **** are you to think you speak for me tin foil man? I was there, I lost family and friends, you don't speak for me. Also how dare you lecture me on honor.
 

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Just one little Historical point here.

In WWII the Japanese Intelligence services were as we MOST know at a strategic & technical disadvantage and Germany could do little to help them. In mid 1943 in light of some minimal exploratory work in the atomic Field in Japan (Yes, they were thinking about it) the Chief of their Intelligence thought (correctly) that based on better inovative resources that the US just might be thinking in a similair Fashion so he decided to look into it BUT they had no Agent within the USA. Also wartime secrecy & 40's technology closed down nearly all other possibilities. Their closest reliable agent was in Brazil and his entry into the US and then communications back thru several countries like Portugal, Turkey etc. was not too certain - but they decided to try. The agent got into the US by very early 1944 and withing about 7 months sent back to Tokyo a curious Code Word that seemed significant , but could not be comprehended as to it's scope.

The word was "Silverplate" - the Magic Manhattan Project "Drop Everything/Get the Man in Charge" access all Important entry word that opened doors on most bases and factories that made every Clerk or bureaucrat deal with an unexpected visitor. The Head guy in Tokyo knew it was important , but it got lost in the shuffle.

Does anyone think today that with our technology that such a unique undertaking as Los Alamos & Oak Ridge could go undetected for very long ????? Remember The Soviet's in WWII had at least 3 Spies in Los Alamos & possibly 5. David Greenglass, Ted Hall & Klaus Fuchs. Only the Soviet handler in NYC using the same courier for 2 of them blew the whistle years later and eventually sealed the fate of the Rosenbergs. That and an earlier defection in Ottawa, Canada that caused a harder look at the Manhattan project.

A mega conspiracy that some Truthers constantly put forth never deals with Human Nature OR that even a real well thought out plan goes bad often for reasons having nothing to do with one's meticulous preperations. Ask Lee Harvey Oswald. Did he think the bus would get caught in traffic(?) or that J.D. Tippett would drive by after he retrieved his handgun from the Rooming house(??)
 

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Well - that settles it.

Bman, I gave you an open opportunity and you just started talking about eating sheep and Gandhi. :shrug: If anything we should be equated to cattle. . . because sheep aren't traditionally consumed (at least in the US) - they're just used for their wool. Cattle on the other had are raised and then slaughtered for their meat, bone and hide.

<snip>
Two words. Lamb chops.

(MMmmmmmm......:chew: )




.
 

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Well - that settles it.

Bman, I gave you an open opportunity and you just started talking about eating sheep and Gandhi. :shrug: If anything we should be equated to cattle. . . because sheep aren't traditionally consumed (at least in the US) - they're just used for their wool. Cattle on the other had are raised and then slaughtered for their meat, bone and hide.
I was alluding to the quote :

"Gradually, by selective breeding, the congenital differences between rulers and ruled will increase until they become almost different species. A revolt of the plebs would become as unthinkable as an organized insurrection of sheep against the practice of eating mutton."
*- Bertrand Russell, "The Impact of Science on Society", 1953, pg 49-50*

I don't believe you've read the Patriot Act in the slightest bit of depth. Whereas I have - because I truly did have interest in what everyone else was so twisted up over.
I have concerns over the act - individual concerns over portions of it and certain goals of certain parts. But I'm not constructing a web of conspiracy to support my opinions - I'm purely letting the facts of the bill itself support my opinions. No web necessary.

Same thing with the Health Care Act - and other things. I've never disagrees 100% with anything in it's entirety - but in portions, yes.

To me that's the sign of a reasonable person - when they're willing to say "I don't agree with this and this - but right here, this line, this isn't that bad" :shrug:
Even I with the TARP and AAHCA found things within them that weren't actually a problem.
Well, the way I'm looking at it, these bills may or may not have some reasonable aspects to them... but they do include some pretty nasty caveats. I mean, the first reauthorization of the patriot act (2), defines domestic terrorism as a violation of any federal or state law which puts people in danger... so driving drunk is potentially a terrorist act. Now, I think drunk drivings an abhorrent activity to pursue, but at the same time, I don't think the perpetrator deserves to be sent to guantanamo bay either though.

If you're frustrated it's purely because of your own blockers you've been wearing and the brick wall you built around yourself.
No, I have no blockers, I take in all the information on all aspects, verify what I can, and try to pursue the truth of the matter...
I have no political 'lean', I see things as right, wrong or a shade of gray, and have no qualms of speaking my mind. Like when I saw an undercover agent make an arrest at a protest, big red frazzled hair and a look that you couldn't forget... and then to see that same red frazzled hair assaulting police the next morning, it's pretty much open and shut that there's provocateuring by police.

Or, read the insert on the H1N1 vaccination that says DO NOT give to children, pregnant women or people with weakened immune systems... what gets promoted by every single media outlet : "High priority for vaccination; children, pregnant women and people with weakened immune systems"... but then people call me a 'kook' when I tell them to not inject their baby with this particular vaccine... or themselves for that matter.

So, whatever... people will think what they want of me.

Do you see yourself as Neo or Morpheus?
Haha... nah... I just like to use the imagery. Reality is alot more complex, and you're not going to fix the world by being a single superhero walking up and taking on the bad guy. Life is not simple like that. Change is a process... and all I'm doing is using my energy to try and push for the good changes, because I can visualize what the bad will start to look like, and well... I know enough history to know what happens when bad takes over.

B'man but NOT one of those points shows, or even mildly infers, that it was a deliberate act by your government.
I'm not making that statement...

Just because Bush disgracefully took advantage afterwards, showed not enough care to the Fire Fighters and left families asking for more, does NOT mean they should be accused of causing it ... don't you see that ???
No, regardless, my position NEVER WAS that Bush CAUSED 9-11. Bush was a puppet dancing with the strings and speaking what he's told... you don't get to be president without selling out to the 'special interests' first. So, you feel that it's right that the investigation only answered a small portion of the questions the victims families asked to be looked into??

And there is zero credible proof that there is any conspiracy surrounding Kennedys death either ...
Just a deathbed confession, an FBI informant who recently came out, the modern scientific examination of the zabruder(sp?) film, the fact that the secret service agent stood down in the moments before the shooting. No, Oswald did all that ;)

The "Magic Bullet" has been proven conclusively to be without merit.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

B'man ... this is all well and good, but mistrust and suspicion alone is NOT enough, you need to understand you need MORE than a general dislike and misgivings about how the world is going before you trumpet claims of mass murder against those you so distrust ... you NEED hard facts, proper evidence ... not speculation and possibilities.
I'm not talking about that... I'm talking about what was done in the aftermath.

Do you know how often I have argued against the Nibiru guff ... yet anyone with even the merest scintilla of understanding easily saw the (again) impossibility of it ... yet despite bombarding them with legitimate astronomical information, it was outright rejected, because they really do need feel above the rest of us mortals just following da gubmint lie ... they were given REAL facts and found them false, through faith in the conspiracy.
I never said there wasn't such a thing as stupid people... but there are also idiots with high IQ's out there too.

Most conspiracy believers genuinely do "want" it to be true, depsite denial, for not only does it make life more interesting and exciting, it also elevates their own perceived status against us sheeple types ... and will outhand reject all opposing information, even demonstrable truth, preferring their "conspiracy" ... they MAKE reality as they wish it to be !!!
Why would I WANT to believe that there's a cabal of ultra wealth that seeks to bring the world under the rule of a one world government through a process of consent and then conquest if consent cannot be achieved. Why would I WANT to believe that evil exists??

It's not about 'WANTING' to believe anything... it's not about not being able to simply 'refute' statements on the basis that you DON"T WANT to believe in something.

You also need to learn to do better and more thourough double-checking of facts presented by conspiracy sites ... especially considering how often they have been shown flawed and/or outright lying then you SHOULD in future take them with more than automatic belief and agreement ... you SHOULD subject their claims to the same standards of checking as the opposing.
Listen, I've said it over a thousand times... I cannot be TOLD that I am wrong, I must be PROVEN wrong... and most all 'debunking' is little better then blanket statements. One of the favorites is 'out of context'... it's like someone comes out and says 'I eat babies three a day." and you'll tell me 'that's out of context' as if there's some sort of 'context' that makes the statements acceptable.

You should always look equally at infomation that "rejects" your claims as much as supports it ... that is the mark of the true skeptic, if nothing else you can then see and predict which part of your arguments will be attacked and so be better prepared with your defence of it.
That's funny because I looked through the official accounts in great detail... and NONE of it adds up, but I'm not going to get into it again... that's the problem with having a hypothesis and finding the evidence to back it up. You have to reject all further information... then there's the extent to which the debunking claims relies on simply attacking the credibility of a person rather then the argument itself... or not disputing the point, but the facsimile of that point slightly altered to attack the altered story...

Ultimately it is quite simple B'man ... the more outrageous the claim the less likely true in reality !!!
And the bigger the lie the more likely people are to believe it.

No B'man this is just psyco-babble, weak, weak psychological justification for a thinking style you should have grown out of years ago.

People are not as "asleep" as you think ... we all know what is wrong with the world, we do know.
No, you really are... the extent to which you seem to think you can 'decide' reality.

Obviously the planet is too big, but we all do our small and important bits ... show some faith in your fellow humans B'man ... for they are not quite as gullible and blindly docile as you think !!!
No, people ARE waking up... and I never meant to say 'docile'... more like willingly ignorant and easily controlled.

Go and do my challenges ... see for YOURSELF if your grasp of science and physics is good enough.
You've got WEIRD assumptions about me that you let out every now and then.

B'man, my country has more government dependancy than yours ... we have a free health system, education system, more free services than yours and yet we haven't fallen that much into Hell.
Well, that's not the point of what I was saying... a 'sheep' can be sheared many times before being slaughtered.... and while a shearing might be uncomfortable it is hardly detrimental.

Yes, we do have some, just some, whom are wholly dependant by choice and are a drain and waste of resources but it hasn't ruined civilisation as we know it ... most people are still good, good enough and concerned enough to not allow things to go too far ... history is littered with proof of this !!!
Yes, a portion is a sort of 'domestication' process... we may be civilized in many ways, but that doesn't mean that humanity has truly seperated from being a wild being. History is also rife with examples of humans 'domesticating' other groups of humans, for slavery of one form or another, etc.

Life changes, moves on but it should not be feared, the unknown is fearful ... but mostly you have nothing to fear but fear itself ...

Stop fretting about stuff that will not come to pass !!!
You keep making it out like I'm 'freaking out' every day... I'm just sick of having to attempt to point out nonsense points that aren't based in any REALITY, but rather are cleverly orchestrated fictions.

And yet here you are. :shrug:

Who the **** are you to think you speak for me tin foil man? I was there, I lost family and friends, you don't speak for me. Also how dare you lecture me on honor.
I never said I was speaking for YOU. You are NOT ALL of the people that lost friends and family. So, is it disrespectful for those that DID lose family and had unanswered questions concerning 9-11 to ask for a new investigation?? Why would you be so eager to prevent them from attempting to get answers??

The world doesn't revolve around you, so calm down. Try actually reading my words rather then pick stuff I say so that you can use your friends memory in an attempt to silence me, and others who have similar questions and concerns.
 
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