My Belief

[tosca1]

This is my response on mostly incidental specific issues or statements brought up in other threads.
Issues that have their own specific threads (such as the Trinity, Bible, etc.) will have to be discussed in their own particular threads.

The issues brought up here may be direct quotes from other threads with links...............just so anyone interested can check out the circumstances surrounding that issue or statement.


This thread will likely be composed mostly of one-sided explanation or clarification, to some it may even look like I'm preaching..................
................but the purpose of this thread is to provide additional information, or clarification.
Its "availability" for those interested, is enough.



There are so many, different bibles. Many have been made in-lined with ideologies or personal preferences. Some have a different Christ.
Thus just so to be clear, my responses will be based on mainstream reputable bibles (KJV, ESV, NASB, NKJ, KJV).

I have been using the KJV Bible Study since the time I became a born-again.


This thread stands on the premise that the Scriptures/Bible, is the WORD of GOD, that the Bible(s) mentioned above contain the verbal words of GOD.



Responses are not necessary........................ but, they are welcome.
However they will be limited to the particular issue(s) that's being brought up, in-lined with the designated purpose and premise of this thread.






Since my responses to issues will be based on reputable bibles mentioned above, it's only fitting to start by clearing up some confusions about the Bible.


One key issue I find is the question over the many translations or versions of the Bible.
Does this make the Bible un-reliable? No.


Mostly, if not all bibles have gone to a new edition. KJV has its New King James version.
This is to make it as easily understood as possible.

Improvement, means "to make better."
It's not a "correction."

One example is the "WIDELY RESPECTED" NASB, which is touted to be most accurate.


This brand new update of the widely respected NASB 1995 builds upon its strengths by further improving accuracy, modernizing language, and improving readability

New American Standard Bible (NASB) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

www.biblegateway.com

That doesn't mean it has been inaccurate before.

 

[tosca1]

Still on the issue of the many translations of the bible:




Scripture is the best yardstick against which to test itself, so if a passage is difficult, reading from a reliable alternative translation is often helpful if it does not subtract from, add to, or distort the inspired Word of God.

Reading the King James Version of the Bible rather than the English Standard Version does not bring one closer to the inspired writings of Moses, Paul, etc.
One must read with discernment: some Bible translations have changed, removed, or added text, which was not inspired by God.


As for modern versions versus the KJV, the main difference is accessibility to the average reader. This is the reason newer translations are released every few years: so that non-theologians can learn about Jesus.


.......“modern Bible translations are [...] accurate translations of the manuscript tradition on which they rely” and many more recent translators have been able to use documents, which were only recently discovered;
documents not available to translators during the late 16th and early 17th centuries.


When one either adds to or subtracts from the Word of God, the resulting translation no longer represents the truth of God.

Are There Bible Translations Christians Should Avoid?

Scripture is the best yardstick against which to test itself, so if a passage is difficult, reading from a reliable alternative translation is often helpful if it does not subtract from, add to, or distort the inspired Word of God.

www.christianity.com

Christians see the number of translations as a good thing—more people are able to read God’s word in their own language.
Others, however, seem to think the number of translations is a bad thing. In fact, they cite the number of translations in order to call into question the Bible’s reliability.

In reality, the modern English translations go back to the original languages.
In fact, those who can read the original languages—Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic— are in a position to know what the authors actually wrote in the original languages.
As a result, there is only one step in the translation process—the original language to modern language. That’s right, every modern translation has only been translated once.
It’s not “a translation of translations of translations”; it’s just a translation.
Therefore, modern translators are in the best position possible to provide an accurate translation.

In the challenge before us, it is enough to point out that the number of translations doesn’t affect the reliability of the text.

The Bible Has Been Translated Many Times Over, so How Can It Be Reliable?

Does the number of times the Bible has been translated affect its reliability? No, and here’s why.

www.str.org

 

[tosca1]

This was asked of me:

"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Was there a comma in the text from which this verse was translated from?
That one little comma separates truth from error

post #82

Clearing Up The Christian Confusions About Our Doctrine

Was the NASB handed down by God and completely free from the influence of man's theology? If so, I shouldn't find any errors, right? So - you're saying..................................... no bible is reliable.

debatepolitics.com

Indeed, it can separate truth from error..............BUT, when we analyze something, we have to remember that it has to be consistent with the Bible,
and/or there is something in the bible that would support it.



Since I BELIEVE JESUS is GOD HIMSELF, one thing I do know of...........................whether there's a comma or not.............................. that promise of Jesus to the thief, can be taken literally.




Several verses support that.


Ecclesiastes 12
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


That is further emphasized by Jesus - showing us this fact by His last Word as a dying man - “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46)


Another supporting verse:

Acts 7:59
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”




So we know - the spirit of the saved dead, will be with Jesus/GOD.
There is........................C O N S I S T E N C Y.





next:


"Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Jesus has also used the term, "truly."




First, we note that every major Bible translation inserts the comma before the word today. Thus, the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, and RSV all agree that Jesus was speaking of the time that the thief would enter paradise. The thief would be in paradise with Jesus on that very same day.

Also, Jesus prefaced His response with the phrase, “I tell you the truth” (“Verily I say unto thee” in the KJV).
Many scholars have noticed that Jesus uses this as a prefix phrase when He is about to say something that should be listened to with care.
Seventy-six times in the New Testament, Jesus uses the phrase. Interestingly, no one but Jesus ever says it. When the Lord says “I tell you the truth,” He is affirming that what He is about to say is worthy of special attention.
It was Jesus’ way of saying, “Listen up! What I’m about to say is very important and should be listened to carefully.”
We’re too used to hearing the phrase to appreciate the astonishing authority it expresses and the often solemn nature of the announcement that follows.
In every one of the 76 times Christ uses this introductory phrase, He simply says it and then makes a startling statement.

What did Jesus mean when He said, “Today you will be with me in paradise”? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said, “Today you will be with me in paradise”? Where does the comma belong in Luke 23:43?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[tosca1]

Bible Worship.



What constitute Bible worship?

To practically treat the bible as an idol, comes to mind.
Like - putting it on a pedestal and bowing before it.....would be worshipping the Bible.



However, we shouldn't equate using the Bible as the Authoritative Book - the Reference that we go to - as a form of worship.
We are supposed to refer to the Scriptures!


Even JESUS - referred to the Scriptures!
How many times had He quoted from the Scriptures (Old Testament) - especially in His debate with the Pharisees?

https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/jesus-references-to-old-testament-scriptures

Beware that anyone should try to make it wrong for us to refer and adhere to what is in the Scriptures.
You know what kind of spirit influences that kind of thinking.

 

[Overitall]

Bible Study - Know and Apply the Word of God

Learn more about the Bible! Discover the meaning of Bible stories, Bible phrases, and how the Bible can help to guide us today.

www.christianity.com

"The original languages in which the Bible was written didn’t contain any punctuation. And yet, when translators convert a biblical text from Ancient Hebrew or Greek to English, they face the dilemma of how to insert punctuation properly into Scripture."

This informs a serious student of the Bible that errors in translations can occur. Take for example the attack on how the JW translates the text. They are declared to be a cult based on simply rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. But the Trinity is not really supported by a clear reading of the Bible.

When Jesus Christ ascended into the kingdom of God where did he sit? If he was God (in the flesh) why not do away with a separation? It would no longer be necessary. Afterall the purpose of God in the flesh, according to @tosca1 is to "show us what obedience looks like". Does God/Jesus still need to do that in heaven? Is He still showing us what obedience looks like?

 

[tosca1]

Bible Study - Know and Apply the Word of God

Learn more about the Bible! Discover the meaning of Bible stories, Bible phrases, and how the Bible can help to guide us today.

www.christianity.com

"The original languages in which the Bible was written didn’t contain any punctuation. And yet, when translators convert a biblical text from Ancient Hebrew or Greek to English, they face the dilemma of how to insert punctuation properly into Scripture."

This informs a serious student of the Bible that errors in translations can occur. Take for example the attack on how the JW translates the text. They are declared to be a cult based on simply rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. But the Trinity is not really supported by a clear reading of the Bible.

When Jesus Christ ascended into the kingdom of God where did he sit? If he was God (in the flesh) why not do away with a separation? It would no longer be necessary. Afterall the purpose of God in the flesh, according to @tosca1 is to "show us what obedience looks like". Does God/Jesus still need to do that in heaven? Is He still showing us what obedience looks like?

Yes, errors can apply.
Thus, when faced with such an issue - we've got to do due diligence and research more.

As explained, punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).
Like the issue of the comma with the thief on the cross.

Refer to post #3.

 

[Overitall]

As explained, punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).
Like the issue of the comma with the thief on the cross.

Refer to post #3.

I showed you how the placement of the comma in Luke 23:43 can change it's meaning. I backed that up with pointing out that according to the scriptures Jesus didn't ascend into paradise on the day of his death. He remained in the grave for 72 hours after his death. You can't logically get around that simple fact, so you choose to ignore it in favor of false doctrine.

 

[tosca1]

I showed you how the placement of the comma in Luke 23:43 can change it's meaning. I backed that up with pointing out that according to the scriptures Jesus didn't ascend into paradise on the day of his death. He remained in the grave for 72 hours after his death. You can't logically get around that simple fact, so you choose to ignore it in favor of false doctrine.

You're not getting the point, Overitall.
It's flying over your head.

I suggest you really digest what's being explained on post #3.

If you still disagree with me after all that detailed explanation, complete with evidence.............................................well, what more can I say? This is MY BELIEF!

 

[Overitall]

You're not getting the point, Overitall.
It's flying over your head.

I suggest you really digest what's being explained on post #3.

You really can’t help yourself. More condescension from you.

 

[tosca1]

You really can’t help yourself. More condescension from you.

Oh, refer to #6, too!


punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).

 

[Daisy]

You really can’t help yourself. More condescension from you.

An old African proverb goes like this..."Not to know is bad, not to desire to know is worse"...

 

[Overitall]

Oh, refer to #6, too!


punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).

If punctuation doesn’t matter, why did the translators bother inserting punctuation at all?

 

[Overitall]

An old African proverb goes like this..."Not to know is bad, not to desire to know is worse"...

I’ve always been the inquisitive type. Not only do I desire to know; I need to know. Fortunately, I’m also very patient waiting on God to show me His will when it’s not always clear. I have no problem acknowledging that I don’t know everything. But I do know a lot.

 

[tosca1]

If punctuation doesn’t matter, why did the translators bother inserting punctuation at all?

I know from experience how reading a "wall of text" in a forum without any punctuation, can be so frustrating and annoying.
Trying to read it even gave me a headache. Literally.
I just simply avoided reading the poster's posts.

Translators most likely think punctuation will make it easier for people to read.
People were buying them.
But how many actually read them?


If Bibles are going thru newer editions modernizing the language for current modern people, to make it easier to read - there are even translations in other languages to suit people from other nations -
it's only logical to assume that was the same purpose with punctuation, when translators had inserted them for the firs time.

What more when the aim is to spread the gospel to every corners of the earth!

 

[Overitall]

I know from experience how reading a "wall of text" in a forum without any punctuation, can be so frustrating and annoying.
Trying to read it even gave me a headache. Literally.
I just simply avoided reading the poster's posts.

Translators most likely think punctuation will make it easier for people to read.
People were buying them.
But how many actually read them?


If Bibles are going thru newer editions modernizing the language for current modern people, to make it easier to read - there are even translations in other languages to suit people from other nations -
it's only logical to assume that was the same purpose with punctuation, when translators had inserted them for the firs time.

What more when the aim is to spread the gospel to every corners of the earth!

I’m all in favor of publishing bibles in understandable languages. Ours requires punctuation which is why I find your dismissal of punctuation odd.

My Belief

This is my response on mostly incidental specific issues or statements brought up in other threads. Issues that have their own specific threads (such as the Trinity, Bible, etc.) will have to be discussed in their own particular threads. The issues brought up here may be direct quotes from...

debatepolitics.com

“punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).”

Punctuation makes a major difference in truth vs error. Placing the comma before the word “today” (Luke 23:43) says one thing, while placing it after says another. Your theological point of view regarding death will determine where you place it. Because I don’t believe paradise is currently available or was on the day Jesus (and the thief) died I place the comma after the word “today”. Jesus, in his statement to the thief was speaking of a future day, not that very day. You believe (most likely) that we all go to paradise (which btw is a place upon Earth and shouldn’t be confused with Heaven) mmediately. I ask; If your belief is right why does 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 say “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”?

This passage doesn’t support your theology.

 

[tosca1]

I’m all in favor of publishing bibles in understandable languages. Ours requires punctuation which is why I find your dismissal of punctuation odd.

My Belief

This is my response on mostly incidental specific issues or statements brought up in other threads. Issues that have their own specific threads (such as the Trinity, Bible, etc.) will have to be discussed in their own particular threads. The issues brought up here may be direct quotes from...

debatepolitics.com

“punctuation don't matter..........................if the message shows consistency, and/or supported by a verse(s).”

Punctuation makes a major difference in truth vs error. Placing the comma before the word “today” (Luke 23:43) says one thing, while placing it after says another. Your theological point of view regarding death will determine where you place it. Because I don’t believe paradise is currently available or was on the day Jesus (and the thief) died I place the comma after the word “today”. Jesus, in his statement to the thief was speaking of a future day, not that very day. You believe (most likely) that we all go to paradise (which btw is a place upon Earth and shouldn’t be confused with Heaven) mmediately. I ask; If your belief is right why does 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 say “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”?

This passage doesn’t support your theology.

I'm not dismissing punctuations.
They are good for the purpose of making text easier to read and understand.
We don't need to be theologians to have some understanding of what we read, either!



I'm saying......................................... it wouldn't matter for accuracy, whether there are punctuations, or not.


WHY?

Because we can determine what the verse actually mean by checking for consistencies and other verses that could support it.


Like the comma.
We find thru further research that Jesus was talking literally when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
The comma is spot on!


Jesus and the thief died minutes apart!
Their spirit went to GOD!
Therefore, the thief is with Jesus in paradise!





Punctuations had not existed in the old text.
That supports what I'm saying. They don't matter!

If punctuations are supposed to matter so much - why did GOD have the Scriptures written without punctuations to begin with!


I'm tired of explaining. That's it.
If you don't accept that.........I respect your opinion.
But, this is MY BELIEF.

 

[Daisy]

 

[Overitall]

I'm not dismissing punctuations.
They are good for the purpose of making text easier to read and understand.
We don't need to be theologians to have some understanding of what we read, either!



I'm saying......................................... it wouldn't matter whether there are punctuations, or not.


WHY?

Because we can determine what the verse actually mean by checking for consistencies and other verses that could support it.



Punctuations had not existed in the old text.
That supports what I'm saying. They don't matter!

If punctuations are supposed to matter so much - why did GOD have the Scriptures written without punctuations to begin with!

So, what do you think Luke 23:43 means absent the comma? Your interpretation and beliefs about the dead will influence your viewpoint, right?

 

[tosca1]

Irrelevant!

The Scriptures were without any punctuations.
It's translators who'd put them in.



Furthermore - unless they're cannibals - only a moron would think they have to eat grandma, literally.


Hahaha- maybe.........even a moron would question that!

Grandma would be too tough to eat! Hahahahaha

 

[Overitall]

I’m trying to get to the point where even the NASB version could contain an error if my beliefs are right about the dead being in the grave, not paradise, — today. Their (NASB) belief, based on the placement of the comma, is one where there is no need for Christ to come back to earth if the dead are already in paradise. This false belief hits on the exhortation for us to have hope for our love ones that have died. We don’t need hope if the dead are alive, living in paradise.

 

[Overitall]

Irrelevant!

The Scriptures were without any punctuations.

So do you agree that the insertion of punctuation is not necessarily reliable or accurate?

It's translators who'd put them in.



Furthermore - unless they're cannibals - only a moron would think they have to eat grandma, literally.
Hahaha- maybe.........even a morn would question that! Grandma would be too tough to eat! Hahahahaha

 

[tosca1]

So do you agree that the insertion of punctuation is not necessarily reliable or accurate?

Whether there is punctuation or not - it doesn't make the Bible un-reliable.

As REPEATEDLY explained.

 

[Overitall]

I'm not dismissing punctuations.
They are good for the purpose of making text easier to read and understand.
We don't need to be theologians to have some understanding of what we read, either!



I'm saying......................................... it wouldn't matter for accuracy, whether there are punctuations, or not.

Yet you’re still possibly wrong in your determination, right? You decided the NASB is accurate whereas the JW version is not. Consider the fact that they can say the same thing about their version — it’s more accurate than the NASB.

WHY?

Because we can determine what the verse actually mean by checking for consistencies and other verses that could support it.


Like the comma.
We find thru further research that Jesus was talking literally when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
The comma is spot on!


Jesus and the thief died minutes apart!
Their spirit went to GOD!
Therefore, the thief is with Jesus in paradise!





Punctuations had not existed in the old text.
That supports what I'm saying. They don't matter!

If punctuations are supposed to matter so much - why did GOD have the Scriptures written without punctuations to begin with!


I'm tired of explaining. That's it.
If you don't accept that.........I respect your opinion.
But, this is MY BELIEF.

 

[Overitall]

Whether there is punctuation or not - it doesn't make the Bible un-reliable.

As REPEATEDLY explained.

Just say yes or no. Does your placement of a comma depend upon your theology?

 

[tosca1]

Thank you for providing support to my point, Daisy.


Remember what I explained about..............CONSISTENCY?


Let's say for example, you got that message addressed to you. "Let's eat grandma." It came from your brother.
In your present state (you're not a cannibal) - wouldn't you be scratching your head over that message, and your default reaction to it would be, "this can't be right!!"

YOU DON'T EAT PEOPLE!


Unless your brother suddenly came out of the closet and revealed himself to be a cannibal - there is no consistency in that message from your brother.
It doesn't make sense!


Surely, you're not going to go start looking for a recipe that will be using grandma!


So - you'd contact your brother and ask him what he means by that message! RIGHT?