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PARIS (AP) - Reporters on the scene said that between 100 and 200 Muslims gathered at the towering Gothic cathedral in Rouen, only a few kilometers (miles) from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, where the 85-year-old Rev. Jacques Hamel was killed by two teenage attackers on Tuesday.
“We’re very touched,” Archbishop Dominique Lebrun told broadcaster BFMTV. “It’s an important gesture of fraternity. They’ve told us, and I think they’re sincere, that it’s not Islam which killed Jacques Hamel.”
Cool. I'd definitely like to see more of this.
Sure, it's a nice gesture. Why though is this generally only expected of Muslims? Why is there an expectation that Muslims specifically must speak out and condemn violent acts and publically show solidarity when they have no connection to the incident, and why do others, across the political spectrum, expect it above all others?
Those who proclaim Muslims don't "speak out" enough, only grow more demanding when Muslims actually do speak out, because by doing so Muslims have publicly affirmed the right of others to blame them collectively, regardless of whether they are accountable or not. The reality for some is that it will never be enough, that's why they can't define what is enough in their eyes.
Sure, it's a nice gesture. Why though is this generally only expected of Muslims? Why is there an expectation that Muslims specifically must speak out and condemn violent acts and publically show solidarity when they have no connection to the incident, and why do others, across the political spectrum, expect it above all others?
Those who proclaim Muslims don't "speak out" enough, only grow more demanding when Muslims actually do speak out, because by doing so Muslims have publicly affirmed the right of others to blame them collectively, regardless of whether they are accountable or not. The reality for some is that it will never be enough, that's why they can't define what is enough in their eyes.
Because there are nutters committing atrocities in the name of Islam?
There are nutters committing atrocities in the name of my race (whatever that's supposed to be).Because there are nutters committing atrocities in the name of Islam?
There are nutters committing atrocities in the name of my race (whatever that's supposed to be).
Where I speak out against their actions I do it of my own accord but I'd be pretty annoyed if I were to be confronted with a general demand by whoever to do so.
The inherent suggestion (in such a demand) that I'm associated with any such actions in question until I've vociferously disassociated myself from them, takes audacity to new heights.
That doesn't address my question. Why is there an expectation that muslims specifically must speak out and condemn violent acts when they have no connection to the incident and why do others across the political spectrum expect it above all others? Heinous crimes carried out in the name of religion are as much anathema to the average Australian or American Muslim as they are to any other Aussie or American. The notion that Muslims should feel some form of collective guilt and be collectively punished is a reprehensible one, but it seems to be evident into an increasing number of people’s attitudes.
Is it really so difficult to comprehend that the Muslims mentioned in the the OP are showing solidarity and horrified by these attacks, not because they are Muslim but because they are human?
That doesn't address my question. Why is there an expectation that muslims specifically must speak out and condemn violent acts when they have no connection to the incident and why do others across the political spectrum expect it above all others? Heinous crimes carried out in the name of religion are as much anathema to the average Australian or American Muslim as they are to any other Aussie or American. The notion that Muslims should feel some form of collective guilt and be collectively punished is a reprehensible one, but it seems to be evident into an increasing number of people’s attitudes.
Is it really so difficult to comprehend that the Muslims mentioned in the the OP are showing solidarity and horrified by these attacks, not because they are Muslim but because they are human?
Uhm.... You do know that European Christians spent over 1000 years in a constant state of warfare, mostly with each other, occasionally fighting the Moors for Spanish territory, and invading Palestine? That Christians fought each other for centuries over sectarian differences? That centuries of Christian violence culminated in inconceivable body counts for World War I and II? You haven't forgotten about that, right...?What is to blame is the religion. That is the root of the problem. And mosques are teaching it. Muslims are a distraction from what inspires the Islamists. That is the doctrine of Islam.
If you can't accept that you don't live in the real world.
There are nutters committing atrocities in the name of my race (whatever that's supposed to be).
Where I speak out against their actions I do it of my own accord but I'd be pretty annoyed if I were to be confronted with a general demand by whoever to do so.
The inherent suggestion (in such a demand) that I'm associated with any such actions in question until I've vociferously disassociated myself from them, takes audacity to new heights.
Uhm.... You do know that European Christians spent over 1000 years in a constant state of warfare, mostly with each other, occasionally fighting the Moors for Spanish territory, and invading Palestine? That Christians fought each other for centuries over sectarian differences? That centuries of Christian violence culminated in inconceivable body counts for World War I and II? You haven't forgotten about that, right...?
The idea that Islam is somehow more violent than Christianity is absurd, and is based on sheer ignorance of history and theology.
Well, it appears Coldjoint thinks Muslims are indeed associated with the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. Do you think he's alone in that opinion?
I have no intention of gracing that poster's suppositions with even the slightest hint of consideration.Well, it appears Coldjoint thinks Muslims are indeed associated with the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. Do you think he's alone in that opinion?
Awesome!
When I was in Spain a month before 911 I was on a tour of an place of worship from several hundred years ago that has Jewish, Christian, and Muslim symbols embedded in the floor. Can't remember which one it was, but it appears at least for a brief period of time all got along.
Typically, the Christian doctrine cited was that whoever was victorious in battle had the favor of God. This was a common assumption throughout much of European history, as typified by the 100 Years' War.It is not an idea it is a fact. Show me the Christian doctrine and tell me where it calls for war or violence.
There's also a lot of Islamic doctrine and history which favors peace and coexistence.I can show you plenty in Islamic doctrine that condones violence and advocates using it.
That (the bolded) having been said, you'll surely realize the waste of time that responding as you did signifies.Uhm.... You do know that European Christians spent over 1000 years in a constant state of warfare, mostly with each other, occasionally fighting the Moors for Spanish territory, and invading Palestine? That Christians fought each other for centuries over sectarian differences? That centuries of Christian violence culminated in inconceivable body counts for World War I and II? You haven't forgotten about that, right...?
The idea that Islam is somehow more violent than Christianity is absurd, and is based on sheer ignorance of history and theology.
Thy call is heeded and thou shalt be servedCool. I'd definitely like to see more of this.
was condemned by Muslim groups. In Canada, a group of Canadian and U.S. Islamic leaders issued a fatwa, or religious edict, condemning any attacks by extremists or terrorists on the United States or Canada and declaring that an attack by extremists on the two countries would constitute an attack on Muslims living in North America. "In our view, these attacks are evil, and Islam requires Muslims to stand up against this evil," said the fatwa signed by the 20 imams associated with the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada
Egyptian Muslims showed up at churches on the eve of the Coptic Christmas on 6 January 2011 during mass service forming a "human shield" against any possible further attacks.[15] In the days before the mass, Muslims and Copts joined together in a show of solidarity that included street protests, rallies, and widespread Facebook unity campaigns calling for an “Egypt for All”.[16] In Lebanon, separate condemnations came from the Sunni Mufti of the Republic Mohammad Qabbani and Deputy Head of the Shiite Supreme Council Abdul Amir Qabalan.[17] Hamas has also condemned the bombing in Alexandria, assigning the blame to hidden hands that do not wish well for Egypt and its Muslim and Christian people and seek to inflame sectarian strife. Hamas in its statement sent condolences to Egypt and the victims' families, and hoped that facts would be disclosed the soonest and that those responsible would be brought to justice
ahemAmr Khaled, an influential Egyptian Muslim preacher, launched a campaign to fight sectarian incitement made on the internet,
We expressedChieftain Naji bin Abdul-Aziz al-Shaif of the northern powerful Bakeel tribe and the organizer of the rally stated: "We our sorrow to all countries and people who were harmed by al-Qaida
Thy call is heeded and thou shalt be served
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa_on_Terrorism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism#Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism#2011_Alexandria_bombing
ahem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_toward_terrorism#Yemen will fight against al-Qaida group as it harmed the reputation of the country, Yemeni tribes and Muslims...
Belgian Muslims condemn attacks, donate blood – POLITICO
http://www.usip.org/olivebranch/2016/06/14/muslims-condemn-orlando-attack
http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/
"Everyone" appearing to be (as we can see here with the odd poster) a bit of a stretch.Right, and the nutters committing atrocities in the name of Allah doesn't reflect badly on Muslims in general. It's not a huge PR problem for the mainstream Muslims, no. And we don't have people blaming all of Islam for the Jihadis at all. Therefore, there is no more need for Muslims to address this issue than for anyone else. So, Muslims attending Catholic mass to show solidarity is totally unnecessary, as everyone understands that those who commit atrocities have perverted Islam.
and that validates their claim?Or, at least, that must be how it is in other realities. In this parallel universe, people do blame Islam, do look at the Koran and quote verses that seem to support the Jihadis, and do fear Islam.
Pleasure, guapa, pleasure.Thanks for the info-mation Chagos. :2wave:
"Everyone" appearing to be (as we can see here with the odd poster) a bit of a stretch.
And where one can indeed argue necessity, let's re-focus again on what this is about. Like "demand" by those you cite below this.
and that validates their claim?
Islam is bad because that's what I believe. And I believe that because it IS bad.
Now where have we heard similar logic before?
The issue here is not simply the ignorance of certain parties, it's those ignoramuses taking every opportunity to spread their stupidity. In those cases, that is, where thus interested posters are not in fact aware of lying and spread the resulting outcome.
Lies.
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