MSNBC Host: Detroit is becoming the most libertarian city in the US

[Gimmesometruth]

I have already pointed out that the auto industry began leaving Detroit in the 1960's and you've provided nothing to contradict that.

You haven't provided evidence or proof of your claim.

I showed Detroit manufacturing held steady until 2000.

I can show that unit output held steady since the 70's

and I can show Michigan car employment was still strong until 2000...again

So go ahead and show a decrease in car manufacturing employment in Detroit since the 60's was due to labor costs.

I'm waiting.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

One lefty economist. Big deal. No one denies the ugliness and violence. Free and prosperous modern Chile is all the evidence I need.

Oh brother, now he's a "lefty" economist. I'm pretty sick of everything being partisan BS. Facts are no longer facts because they don't fit someone's perception of how things are suppose to be. The irony behind the whole thing is that the World Bank pushes through neoliberal policies.

Proof: chrome-extension://bpmcpldpdmajfigpchkicefoigmkfalc/views/app.html
INTRODUCTION
The ongoing global financial crisis and current attempts to save the neoliberal political-economic system from itself have brought renewed attention to the institutions that have established and reproduced neoliberal economic reasoning since the 1980s. When studying the spread of neoliberalism, much has been said about the role of international financial institutions – the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade / World Trade Organization (GATT/WTO)

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Oh drats, the link didn't copy.

If you google:
Restructuring Neoliberalism - The George Washington University a link to a research paper should pop up.

 

[Jack Hays]

You haven't provided evidence or proof of your claim.

I showed Detroit manufacturing held steady until 2000.

I can show that unit output held steady since the 70's

and I can show Michigan car employment was still strong until 2000...again

So go ahead and show a decrease in car manufacturing employment in Detroit since the 60's was due to labor costs.

I'm waiting.

You've done it for me. Your first chart shows manufacturing but doesn't say what kind or at what wages and benefits. Your second chart is auto manufacturing in the US. Dispersed. Your third chart shows Michigan, not Detroit. And overall vehicle production volumes went up but the increase went elsewhere. You're making my point.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Yes, there is plenty of documents with evidence but feel free to deny it. I understand it's hard to believe our government would have any hand in planning a coup. Once documents were released to the public the CIA, which denied their involved for decades, had to come clean about those documents.

There is nothing in any document or anywhere else showing US involvement in the coup.

 

[Jack Hays]

Oh brother, now he's a "lefty" economist. I'm pretty sick of everything being partisan BS. Facts are no longer facts because they don't fit someone's perception of how things are suppose to be. The irony behind the whole thing is that the World Bank pushes through neoliberal policies.

Proof: chrome-extension://bpmcpldpdmajfigpchkicefoigmkfalc/views/app.html
INTRODUCTION
The ongoing global financial crisis and current attempts to save the neoliberal political-economic system from itself have brought renewed attention to the institutions that have established and reproduced neoliberal economic reasoning since the 1980s. When studying the spread of neoliberalism, much has been said about the role of international financial institutions – the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade / World Trade Organization (GATT/WTO)

Free and prosperous Chile stands on its own. And what does this have to do with Detroit anyway?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You've done it for me.

I have done nothing for you, you cannot do anything for yourself.

Your first chart shows manufacturing but doesn't say what kind or at what wages and benefits.

Um, it shows manufacturing in Detroit. Over 80% of manufacturing in Detroit has been auto related. I did not have to show wages, that is yours to prove. You claim was Detroit had a decline in manufacturing due to labor costs, but since the vast majority of manufacturing jobs are auto related and stayed in Detroit until 2000, it proves you are wrong about a claim of "job declines in Detroit from labor costs 1960-80".

Your second chart is auto manufacturing in the US. Dispersed.

Yes, but within your time frame of "1960-80", foreign owned car builders did not show up until the mid 80's....and again, units built held steady, meaning Detroit was not losing significant auto employment in your time frame.

You should be able to understand that.

Your third chart shows Michigan, not Detroit.

Most of the auto related employment is within 20 miles of Detroit.

And overall vehicle production volumes went up but the increase went elsewhere.

Um, that is showing auto related EMPLOYMENT, not production. Those EMPLOYMENT numbers parallel the first EMPLOYMENT graph.....for Detroit.

You're making my point.eace

No, I showed further how wrong your claim was. You should have figured that out and tried to prove you were correct, but you are a lazy poster who doesn't back a claim.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

There is nothing in any document or anywhere else showing US involvement in the coup.

The CIA is acknowledging for the first time the extent of its deep involvement in Chile, where it dealt with coup-plotters, false propagandists and assassins. CIA Admits Involvement in Chile - ABC News

Also,


Support for Coup in 1970. Under “Track II” of the strategy, CIA sought to instigate a coup to prevent Allende from taking office after he won a plurality in the 4 September election and before, as Constitutionally required because he did not win an absolute majority, the Chilean Congress reaffirmed his victory. CIA was working with three different groups of plotters. All three groups made it clear that any coup would require the kidnapping of Army Commander Rene Schneider, who felt deeply that the Constitution required that the Army allow Allende to assume power. CIA agreed with that assessment. Although CIA provided weapons to one of the groups, we have found no information that the plotters’ or CIA’s intention was for the general to be killed. Contact with one group of plotters was dropped early on because of its extremist tendencies. CIA provided tear gas, submachine-guns and ammunition to the second group. The third group attempted to kidnap Schneider, mortally wounding him in the attack. CIA had previously encouraged this group to launch a coup but withdrew support four days before the attack because, in CIA’s assessment, the group could not carry it out successfully. https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/

I also gave you declassified documents from the government archives but if you don't want to believe the US had involvement in the coup (they trained them, funded them and provided them with military equipment, provided news media propoganda etc....) then once again it's your prerogative. I don't think we need to continue to go around and around nonstop.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Free and prosperous Chile stands on its own. And what does this have to do with Detroit anyway?

Chile has undergone many changes since the departure of Pinochet. A big one is for them to rebuild the social contract that was dismantled under the dictator. With these changes, things have gotten better but more works needs to be done especially when addressing education. Btw, the country with the biggest voucher system and the most inequality in education.

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/etext/llilas/ilassa/2008/quezada.pdf

The whole point was they privatized and pushed through many of their own private-public partnerships, sold off many state assets with the exception of their large copper giant Codelco. These are the same policies being pushed through Michigan and many other places in the US. Michigan is using its assets from public pension though (or tried to by declaring bankruptcy until that was put to a halt for now) to rebuild their city using public private enterprise. I suppose that is another topic which is quite tragic in itself. The US is dismantling its social contract in order to provide tax money to grow public-private enterprise. It's abandoning its citizens by turning them into customers. It didn't work well when Chile first tried this experiment and is trying to place social safety nets back into place and address many social issues. There is a lesson to be learned from history if we just listen. These policies are hardly new just hardly discussed.

 

[windowdressing]

We watched. They acted.

good thing you're not the one writing the history books ... I'm just surprised you didn't get the memo saying it's O.K. to admit what we did ... maybe you were lower in the chain of command than I thought ..

 

[Jack Hays]

I have done nothing for you, you cannot do anything for yourself.


Um, it shows manufacturing in Detroit. Over 80% of manufacturing in Detroit has been auto related. I did not have to show wages, that is yours to prove. You claim was Detroit had a decline in manufacturing due to labor costs, but since the vast majority of manufacturing jobs are auto related and stayed in Detroit until 2000, it proves you are wrong about a claim of "job declines in Detroit from labor costs 1960-80".


Yes, but within your time frame of "1960-80", foreign owned car builders did not show up until the mid 80's....and again, units built held steady, meaning Detroit was not losing significant auto employment in your time frame.

You should be able to understand that.


Most of the auto related employment is within 20 miles of Detroit.


Um, that is showing auto related EMPLOYMENT, not production. Those EMPLOYMENT numbers parallel the first EMPLOYMENT graph.....for Detroit.


No, I showed further how wrong your claim was. You should have figured that out and tried to prove you were correct, but you are a lazy poster who doesn't back a claim.

The problem has been decades in the making. It has always been easier for politicians to promise generous retirement benefits to public servants than to raise their wages. The bill for jam today falls due immediately; the bill for jam tomorrow can be delayed for decades.

The same mindset once caused Detroit’s big three carmakers to strike deals with workers whereby they could retire as young as 48 with gold-plated pension and health-care packages. In the short term, this bought industrial peace. In the long term, it bankrupted GM and Chrysler; in 2009 the government had to rescue them.

• Pensioners are pushing many cities and states towards financial crisis 40

Detroit’s bankruptcy

Can Motown be mended?

America’s biggest-ever city bankruptcy starts to roll 54

 

[Jack Hays]

The CIA is acknowledging for the first time the extent of its deep involvement in Chile, where it dealt with coup-plotters, false propagandists and assassins. CIA Admits Involvement in Chile - ABC News

Also,


Support for Coup in 1970. Under “Track II” of the strategy, CIA sought to instigate a coup to prevent Allende from taking office after he won a plurality in the 4 September election and before, as Constitutionally required because he did not win an absolute majority, the Chilean Congress reaffirmed his victory. CIA was working with three different groups of plotters. All three groups made it clear that any coup would require the kidnapping of Army Commander Rene Schneider, who felt deeply that the Constitution required that the Army allow Allende to assume power. CIA agreed with that assessment. Although CIA provided weapons to one of the groups, we have found no information that the plotters’ or CIA’s intention was for the general to be killed. Contact with one group of plotters was dropped early on because of its extremist tendencies. CIA provided tear gas, submachine-guns and ammunition to the second group. The third group attempted to kidnap Schneider, mortally wounding him in the attack. CIA had previously encouraged this group to launch a coup but withdrew support four days before the attack because, in CIA’s assessment, the group could not carry it out successfully. https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/

I also gave you declassified documents from the government archives but if you don't want to believe the US had involvement in the coup (they trained them, funded them and provided them with military equipment, provided news media propoganda etc....) then once again it's your prerogative. I don't think we need to continue to go around and around nonstop.

I believe your own post confirms that CIA did not participate in the coup.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Chile has undergone many changes since the departure of Pinochet. A big one is for them to rebuild the social contract that was dismantled under the dictator. With these changes, things have gotten better but more works needs to be done especially when addressing education. Btw, the country with the biggest voucher system and the most inequality in education.

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/etext/llilas/ilassa/2008/quezada.pdf

The whole point was they privatized and pushed through many of their own private-public partnerships, sold off many state assets with the exception of their large copper giant Codelco. These are the same policies being pushed through Michigan and many other places in the US. Michigan is using its assets from public pension though (or tried to by declaring bankruptcy until that was put to a halt for now) to rebuild their city using public private enterprise. I suppose that is another topic which is quite tragic in itself. The US is dismantling its social contract in order to provide tax money to grow public-private enterprise. It's abandoning its citizens by turning them into customers. It didn't work well when Chile first tried this experiment and is trying to place social safety nets back into place and address many social issues. There is a lesson to be learned from history if we just listen. These policies are hardly new just hardly discussed.

Nonsense. Chile was/is a success story.

 

[Jack Hays]

good thing you're not the one writing the history books ... I'm just surprised you didn't get the memo saying it's O.K. to admit what we did ... maybe you were lower in the chain of command than I thought ..

Post #183 above confirms my statement.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

The same mindset once caused Detroit’s big three carmakers to strike deals with workers whereby they could retire as young as 48 with gold-plated pension and health-care packages. In the short term, this bought industrial peace. In the long term, it bankrupted GM and Chrysler; in 2009 the government had to rescue them.

So, it was costs that bankrupted the big three, not declining market share.

It is funny how Germany is paying higher auto worker compensation....and yet their industries are growing in output.

PS....why are you showing declines in population to buttress an argument of increasing labor costs?

 

[windowdressing]

Post #183 above confirms my statement.

really ... that's not the way I read it ... but O.K. ...

 

[Jack Hays]

So, it was costs that bankrupted the big three, not declining market share.

It is funny how Germany is paying higher auto worker compensation....and yet their industries are growing in output.

PS....why are you showing declines in population to buttress an argument of increasing labor costs?

In Germany health care is not a manufacturing cost and pensions are heavily subsidized by the state.
High costs made the Big Three less competitive, which cost them market share, which put them on the downward path. Meanwhile, foreign producers opened factories far from Detroit, invariably in right-to-work states. Declining job opportunities was part of the population decline dynamic in Detroit.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

really ... that's not the way I read it ... but O.K. ...

I have never claimed that we were not in touch with the plotters. Nor do I deny that their actions were viewed positively. I have only said that we did not participate in the coup, and that's irrefutably true.

I'm still glad they did what they did, and as I've posted before, so are the Chileans I have met.eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

I believe your own post confirms that CIA did not participate in the coup.eace

Right because deep involvement means no involvement.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Nonsense. Chile was/is a success story.

Depending on ones priorities- Any country can be an economic powerhouse like our own btw. That is not the problem though. The problem is little priority is placed on standard of living for the citizens.

Snip: Chile
Money, while it cannot buy happiness, is an important means to achieving higher living standards. In Chile, the average household net-adjusted disposable income is 11 039 USD a year, much less than the OECD average of 23 047 USD a year. But there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn 13 times as much as the bottom 20%.
In terms of employment, over 61% of people aged 15 to 64 in Chile have a paid job, below the OECD employment average of 66%. Some 74% of men are in paid work, compared with 49% of women. People in Chile work 2 047 hours a year, more than the OECD average of 1 776 hours. Some 16% of employees work very long hours, more than the OECD average of 9%, with 20% of men working very long hours compared with just 10% for women.
Having a good education is an important requisite for finding a job. In Chile, 71% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree, below the OECD average of 74%. There is little difference between men and women, as 72% of men have successfully completed high-school compared with 71% of women. In terms of education quality, the average student in Chile scored 439 in reading literacy, maths and science in the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). This score is lower than the OECD average of 497. On average in Chile, girls outperformed boys by 3 points, less than the average OECD gap of 9 points.

It goes on and on but you get my point.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

In Germany health care is not a manufacturing cost and pensions are heavily subsidized by the state.

I know this Jack, it is the same for Japan. I have spoken many times about our lack of industrial policy which includes the need to socialize medical and retirement costs if we want to remain competitive.

High costs made the Big Three less competitive, which cost them market share, which put them on the downward path.

Jack, I already showed the comparable costs of domestic vs import and how it narrowed, in fact most of the popular vehicles were cheaper from domestic makers

Meanwhile, foreign producers opened factories far from Detroit, invariably in right-to-work states.

Um, Jack, they did that to avoid tariffs and took advantage of MASSIVE state subsidies....in other words we socialized the foreign auto manufactures to build here, the states helped to cut Detroits' throat.

Declining job opportunities was part of the population decline dynamic in Detroit.eace

Deeeer....yes Jack. We are trying to debate the cause of the declining opportunities...and when they occurred.

 

[Jack Hays]

Right because deep involvement means no involvement.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength

I have never claimed that we were not in touch with the plotters. Nor do I deny that their actions were viewed positively. I have only said that we did not participate in the coup, and that's irrefutably true.

I'm still glad they did what they did, and as I've posted before, so are the Chileans I have met.

 

[Jack Hays]

Depending on ones priorities- Any country can be an economic powerhouse like our own btw. That is not the problem though. The problem is little priority is placed on standard of living for the citizens.

Snip: Chile
Money, while it cannot buy happiness, is an important means to achieving higher living standards. In Chile, the average household net-adjusted disposable income is 11 039 USD a year, much less than the OECD average of 23 047 USD a year. But there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn 13 times as much as the bottom 20%.
In terms of employment, over 61% of people aged 15 to 64 in Chile have a paid job, below the OECD employment average of 66%. Some 74% of men are in paid work, compared with 49% of women. People in Chile work 2 047 hours a year, more than the OECD average of 1 776 hours. Some 16% of employees work very long hours, more than the OECD average of 9%, with 20% of men working very long hours compared with just 10% for women.
Having a good education is an important requisite for finding a job. In Chile, 71% of adults aged 25-64 have earned the equivalent of a high-school degree, below the OECD average of 74%. There is little difference between men and women, as 72% of men have successfully completed high-school compared with 71% of women. In terms of education quality, the average student in Chile scored 439 in reading literacy, maths and science in the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). This score is lower than the OECD average of 497. On average in Chile, girls outperformed boys by 3 points, less than the average OECD gap of 9 points.

It goes on and on but you get my point.

Doesn't seem to be much to criticize.

 

[windowdressing]

I have never claimed that we were not in touch with the plotters. Nor do I deny that their actions were viewed positively. I have only said that we did not participate in the coup, and that's irrefutably true.

I'm still glad they did what they did, and as I've posted before, so are the Chileans I have met.eace

what constitutes participation for you? I asked you what Chileans you were talking about ... you indicated principally businessmen .. surprise, huh? nothing will ever justify what happened in the aftermath of the coup ... What per cent of Chiliean society today respects him Jack? I don't know for sure, but a Chilean friend told me that one poll found only 10% ... but that doesn't matter .... what we did was reprehensible and it troubles me that someone like you, who clearly loves his family and grandchildren, can have so little feeling for people who lost theirs because of that monster, our monster ...

 

[Jack Hays]

Jack, I already showed the comparable costs of domestic vs import and how it narrowed, in fact most of the popular vehicles were cheaper from domestic makers

I don't recall that you have posted that, at least not in a reply to me. Japanese vehicles initially penetrated the market on cost. My 1972 Datsun PL 510 station wagon was cheaper (and much better made) than the comparable Ford Maverick station wagon. Later, as the yen rose in value and Japanese cars became more expensive than American cars, the Japanese reputation for quality allowed them to charge a premium price and still grow their market share.eace