• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Most of The World Could Be 100% Powered With Renewables by 2050

Lord of Planar said:
At least with synthetic hydrocarbons, none of the current shipping, storage, and retail outlets need changes.
Click to expand...
And we have over a century of evolving improvements in that same technology.
 
Jack Hays said:
wind power
[h=1]Wind farm equipment shuts down Interstate 25 in Colorado[/h]The Colorado Department of Transportation is working to reopen I-25 in Pueblo. The accident has several lanes of the highway shut down between Abriendo and Central avenues. A semi was involved in an accident. A large piece of equipment from the Vestas wind farm fell onto the road. Large equipment has been brought in to remove the…
Click to expand...


sell your coal stocks it is over. Do you still own whale oil stocks?
 
longview said:
I suspect there will be and should be competition, I see several stages. where I think it will eventually head still involves storing the energy as hydrocarbons,
but only as a container for the hydrogen. Pure hydrogen is difficult to store, but Toyota and seem to have overcome the challenges.
I think it still comes back to the infrastructure, it would take decades to switch it out.
If CO2 were really a problem, synthetic carbon neutral fuels could solve that problem in months, and sustain ably.
With the average car age at 11.6 years, and electrics with only a small percentage of market penetration,
I see man made fuels as a viable stepping stone, and possibly long term energy packaging.
Click to expand...

It’s important to look at different alternatives. Still you must accomplish some full-scale factories to see the feasible of synthetic fuel for cars. There as I understand it the technology is still in an early test phase. You also have other problems like for example that you will need a lot more electricity with synthetic fuel powered cars compared to electric cars.

While for example Norway have showed that you can drastically increase the sales of electric cars, with around 40 percent of new cars sold being electric.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/04/electric-car-norway-tesla-model-x/

That at the same time rapid development of self driving cars can reduce the need for cars with 90 percent, if personal cars are replaced with cheap self-driving taxis.

https://translate.google.se/transla...andrar-staderna-inom-bara-nagra-ar&edit-text=
 
Bergslagstroll said:
It’s important to look at different alternatives. Still you must accomplish some full-scale factories to see the feasible of synthetic fuel for cars. There as I understand it the technology is still in an early test phase. You also have other problems like for example that you will need a lot more electricity with synthetic fuel powered cars compared to electric cars.

While for example Norway have showed that you can drastically increase the sales of electric cars, with around 40 percent of new cars sold being electric.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/04/electric-car-norway-tesla-model-x/

That at the same time rapid development of self driving cars can reduce the need for cars with 90 percent, if personal cars are replaced with cheap self-driving taxis.

https://translate.google.se/transla...andrar-staderna-inom-bara-nagra-ar&edit-text=
Click to expand...

Two important considerations,
1: There is a loss related to charging and discharging batteries, I think the losses are generally about 20%.
the stated efficiencies of the synthetic fuel process is up to 70%, so the difference is not that great, and the shelve life
of the liquid hydrocarbon in much greater.

2: Electricity prices in Norway are listed as 28.7 øre per kWh, or .287 NOK,
1 NOK is $.13, so they are paying $.037 per Kwh,
Combine the low electric rate with the roughly $7.80 a gallon gasoline, means an electric car looks a lot cheaper.
 
[h=2]Only 10% of people allowed to use solar in Broome WA to stop grid “fluctuations”[/h]
[h=4]When too much solar is more than enough[/h]The WA government-run electricity provider has called a halt to new solar installations in Broome, a town in Northwest WA that is not connected to the national grid, or even the main WA grid. (It’s 2,000km north of Perth). About 10% of the town put solar panels on their roof but apparently the little grid can’t handle the fluctuations, so the early birds got the subsidies, and the rest got grumpy.
June 3rd, ABC:
[h=2]Broome residents tire of cap on solar power installations[/h]
  • Horizon Power only allows 10 per cent of the town’s power to come from solar due to issues with grid fluctuations
  • This leaves some residents unable to install a solar system that connects to the grid
  • Horizon is trialling battery storage technology in other WA towns and hopes to expand this to Broome
Residents in the Kimberley town of Broome have said they are fed up with being prevented from accessing solar power despite living in one of Western Australia’s sunniest towns.
State-owned energy utility Horizon Power allows just 10 per cent of the town’s power to be generated from solar to protect the grid from fluctuations during periods of high and low light.
Small business owner Cameron White has been trying to switch to solar for two years in a bid to reduce his power bill but said he has been blocked at every turn.
“We’re in the sunniest place in Australia, probably, but we can’t use it,” he said.
[h=4]Tell me how this helps the poor or the environment…[/h]How fair is it when a government can offer subsidies on a first-in first-served basis? Here the costs of the first subsides are so large and unsustainable, that electricity prices are forced up on the rest of the owners, but they can’t partake of the same scheme. The random benevolence of government.
Time to talk about the hidden costs of solar and wind power — battery storage.




 
Jack Hays said:
[h=2]Only 10% of people allowed to use solar in Broome WA to stop grid “fluctuations”[/h]
[h=4]When too much solar is more than enough[/h]The WA government-run electricity provider has called a halt to new solar installations in Broome, a town in Northwest WA that is not connected to the national grid, or even the main WA grid. (It’s 2,000km north of Perth). About 10% of the town put solar panels on their roof but apparently the little grid can’t handle the fluctuations, so the early birds got the subsidies, and the rest got grumpy.
June 3rd, ABC:
[h=2]Broome residents tire of cap on solar power installations[/h]
  • Horizon Power only allows 10 per cent of the town’s power to come from solar due to issues with grid fluctuations
  • This leaves some residents unable to install a solar system that connects to the grid
  • Horizon is trialling battery storage technology in other WA towns and hopes to expand this to Broome
Residents in the Kimberley town of Broome have said they are fed up with being prevented from accessing solar power despite living in one of Western Australia’s sunniest towns.
State-owned energy utility Horizon Power allows just 10 per cent of the town’s power to be generated from solar to protect the grid from fluctuations during periods of high and low light.
Small business owner Cameron White has been trying to switch to solar for two years in a bid to reduce his power bill but said he has been blocked at every turn.
“We’re in the sunniest place in Australia, probably, but we can’t use it,” he said.
[h=4]Tell me how this helps the poor or the environment…[/h]How fair is it when a government can offer subsidies on a first-in first-served basis? Here the costs of the first subsides are so large and unsustainable, that electricity prices are forced up on the rest of the owners, but they can’t partake of the same scheme. The random benevolence of government.
Time to talk about the hidden costs of solar and wind power — battery storage.
Click to expand...
They could probably go grid assist, but that is much less popular, as no surplus is produced, (I am not entirely sure how this works)
 
[h=2]Trying to Make Sense of Musk Love and Solar Hype[/h][FONT=&quot]Posted on October 27, 2017 | Leave a comment[/FONT]
By Planning Engineer
Considerable efforts are being undertaken to restore power in Puerto Rico. Most coverage has been pessimistic focusing on challenging logistics and contentious issues with very little upbeat coverage on progress so far. There is one major exception to this trend, the efforts of Elon Musk and Tesla have enjoyed glowing coverage.
Continue reading →
 
longview said:
Two important considerations,
1: There is a loss related to charging and discharging batteries, I think the losses are generally about 20%.
the stated efficiencies of the synthetic fuel process is up to 70%, so the difference is not that great, and the shelve life
of the liquid hydrocarbon in much greater.

2: Electricity prices in Norway are listed as 28.7 øre per kWh, or .287 NOK,
1 NOK is $.13, so they are paying $.037 per Kwh,
Combine the low electric rate with the roughly $7.80 a gallon gasoline, means an electric car looks a lot cheaper.
Click to expand...

You also must account for the very low efficiency of the petrol engine itself. On top of the energy lost in creating the fuel.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Also in USA fuel is cheaper for electric vehicles.

The biggest savings will be in fuel. A gallon of regular gas today costs an average of $2.70, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA). Residential electricity costs on the other hand, only average $.11 per kilowatt hour (again, according to the EIA). Nissan says a full charge of their Nissan Leaf electric car will cost $2.75.

It seems like the cost is about the same, but you've got to dig into the math more: on a full charge, a Nissan Leaf will travel about 100 miles (160.9 kilometers). On one gallon of gas, a Nissan Versa will go about 30 miles (48.3 kilometers). Covering 100 miles (160.9 kilometers) in the Versa will cost about $9.00.
Click to expand...

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/are-electric-cars-cheaper-to-run.htm

That at the same time you continue to see drastic drop in cost of electricity thanks to solar power.

https://thinkprogress.org/stunner-lowest-price-solar-power-f3b620d04010/

While the cost of buying electric cars will also continue to drop.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-cheaper-than-gasoline-models-within-a-decade
 
Bergslagstroll said:
You also must account for the very low efficiency of the petrol engine itself. On top of the energy lost in creating the fuel.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Also in USA fuel is cheaper for electric vehicles.



https://auto.howstuffworks.com/are-electric-cars-cheaper-to-run.htm

That at the same time you continue to see drastic drop in cost of electricity thanks to solar power.

https://thinkprogress.org/stunner-lowest-price-solar-power-f3b620d04010/

While the cost of buying electric cars will also continue to drop.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-cheaper-than-gasoline-models-within-a-decade
Click to expand...

Heat engines do suffer from low efficiency, but at the end of the day, what matters is how dense your energy storage is when converted to usable work.
Hydrocarbon energy storage is still about 5 times better than batteries.
If the hydrocarbons were simply a hydrogen storage for a fuel cell, the efficiency could go as high as 70%, and batteries would have an even steeper hill
to climb.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
You also must account for the very low efficiency of the petrol engine itself. On top of the energy lost in creating the fuel.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Also in USA fuel is cheaper for electric vehicles.



https://auto.howstuffworks.com/are-electric-cars-cheaper-to-run.htm

That at the same time you continue to see drastic drop in cost of electricity thanks to solar power.

https://thinkprogress.org/stunner-lowest-price-solar-power-f3b620d04010/

While the cost of buying electric cars will also continue to drop.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-cheaper-than-gasoline-models-within-a-decade
Click to expand...

I spoke to a Hyundai representative about a week ago. They are now offering an unconditional replacement of the battery as a warranty, for it's new hybrids. I wonder if some of the electric cars will follow suit with these same kind of warranties?
 
Jack Hays said:

[h=1]DOE Secretary Rick Perry: “Resiliency Pricing Rule” for Coal-fired and Nuclear Power Plants[/h]Guest post by David Middleton DOE = United States Department of Energy FERC = Federal Energy Regulatory Commission OCT 2, 2017 Rick Perry Directs FERC To Complete Final Action On Resiliency Pricing Rule In 60 Days Rod Adams , CONTRIBUTOR One of the most sweeping changes to the U.S. electricity supply market in the past…
Continue reading →
Click to expand...

Is this the same Rick Perry who couldn't even remember that there was a Department of Energy, during a debate?
 
Media_Truth said:
I spoke to a Hyundai representative about a week ago. They are now offering an unconditional replacement of the battery as a warranty, for it's new hybrids. I wonder if some of the electric cars will follow suit with these same kind of warranties?
Click to expand...

Hybrids don't have much of a battery, and create more NOx emissions than a regular IC engine.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Hybrids don't have much of a battery, and create more NOx emissions than a regular IC engine.
Click to expand...

Another totally unsupported, and errant statement.

Today's production hybrid cars are marketed by a singular benefit; increased fuel economy. Even though it is true that hybrid cars can save drivers a bundle on gasoline and even earn them a tax rebate (see hybrid car tax rebate) the much more important benefit is the very significant reduction in emissions. Generally, hybrid cars produce 80% less harmful pollutants and greenhouse gases than comparable gasoline cars. This translates to less airborne pollutants, and a cleaner earth.

http://www.hybrid-car.org/hybrid-car-emissions.html
 
Ridiculae
[h=1]UGLY: Disputing peer review by lawsuit[/h]Wow, just wow. Some scientists and their egos. Sheesh. Michael Shellenberger writes: Stanford University professor Mark Z. Jacobson has filed a lawsuit, demanding $10 million in damages, against the peer-reviewed scientific journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) and a group of eminent scientists (Clack et al.) for their study showing that Jacobson made…
 
Coal
[h=1]Coal Demand and Prices Surge… As Do U.S. Coal Exports![/h]Guest post by David Middleton Coal prices are on the rise again. With benchmark rates in Australia up over 30 percent since July — approaching the $100/t mark that prevailed in November 2016 after a massive run-up last year. And a number of events the past week show that things could get even more heated…
 
Jack Hays said:
Coal
[h=1]Coal Demand and Prices Surge… As Do U.S. Coal Exports![/h]Guest post by David Middleton Coal prices are on the rise again. With benchmark rates in Australia up over 30 percent since July — approaching the $100/t mark that prevailed in November 2016 after a massive run-up last year. And a number of events the past week show that things could get even more heated…
Click to expand...

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

"Things are going to get more heated..." Clever play on words! :thumbs:

IIRC, not too long ago I read that Germany and a few other EU countries are also going to once again start using coal! The "renewables" just aren't doing the job expected of them at a price people can afford, so even though Merkel and other leaders agreed to the Paris Accord in theory, people expect to stay warm in the Winter months. I got the impression that the coal would be used in personal home heating - in a furnace or something similar - and not heat supplied by a utility using coal, but I could be mistaken about that. Interesting......
 
jc456 said:
who will be paying for it?
Click to expand...

I can tell you how I think it will go down, but the die hard alarmist don't like it, because it does not involve Government control.
The current technology can make a gallon of transport fuel (gasoline, diesel, Jet fuel,) for about 55 to 65 Kwh of electricity.
The process could be adapted to almost any modern refinery, who already have large power grid connections.
Hydrogen from water, Carbon from atmospheric CO2, and electricity to breakdown and reassemble the olefins.
The current whole sale price of electricity is about 3 to 4 cents per Kwh,
so .04 times 65 = $2.60 per gallon for jet fuel,
A barrel of oil can produce about 35 gallons of fuel product so roughly $91 a barrel oil.
Somewhere about $90 a barrel oil, the refinery operators will find it more profitable,
to make their own feedstock, rather than buy market oil.
When the lowest price choice of fuel at the pump in the carbon neutral variety, people will choose it.
The very real danger is that those who want to ware their environmental consciousness badge on their sleeve,
may be willing to pay more for a commodity product and thus delay wide acceptance.
Solar home panels are at a point that they make finical sense, from a cost savings perspective.
The limitation is the crazy buy back rules they put in place for early adopters, is killing the market because
they are causing the utilities to push back on new installs.
I think there may be some room for the refineries to buy all the surplus at near the wholesale rate, and store it as transport fuel
for their existing distribution infrastructure. Perhaps the payment for the surplus could be a fuel credit.
This is all market driven, people looking out for their own interest, but the choices have benefits beyond those interest.
Energy is the actual problem and always has been, AGW is simply a distraction from the real problem.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Yes, some countries like Germany have higher energy prices but you haven’t showed how much of it’s because of renewables. Also, as I said the investment in renewables is starting to pay off.

Like for example the global capacity increase in renewables was 10 percent more 2016 than the year before. While the cost dropped with 23 percent. Also new renewables installation is today often cheaper than fossil fuel and nuclear.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ble-energy-costs-leads-to-record-global-boost

Also, to get the right numbers you also must add in the massive negative effect fossil fuel have both locally and globally. That the subsidies to fossil fuel for not paying their cost, that amounts of trillions of dollars each year.

IMF Survey : Counting the Cost of Energy Subsidies
Click to expand...

:lamo
 
Media_Truth said:
I spoke to a Hyundai representative about a week ago. They are now offering an unconditional replacement of the battery as a warranty, for it's new hybrids. I wonder if some of the electric cars will follow suit with these same kind of warranties?
Click to expand...

so where is the disposal of the battery going? You know, all that acid.
 
longview said:
I can tell you how I think it will go down, but the die hard alarmist don't like it, because it does not involve Government control.
The current technology can make a gallon of transport fuel (gasoline, diesel, Jet fuel,) for about 55 to 65 Kwh of electricity.
The process could be adapted to almost any modern refinery, who already have large power grid connections.
Hydrogen from water, Carbon from atmospheric CO2, and electricity to breakdown and reassemble the olefins.
The current whole sale price of electricity is about 3 to 4 cents per Kwh,
so .04 times 65 = $2.60 per gallon for jet fuel,
A barrel of oil can produce about 35 gallons of fuel product so roughly $91 a barrel oil.
Somewhere about $90 a barrel oil, the refinery operators will find it more profitable,
to make their own feedstock, rather than buy market oil.
When the lowest price choice of fuel at the pump in the carbon neutral variety, people will choose it.
The very real danger is that those who want to ware their environmental consciousness badge on their sleeve,
may be willing to pay more for a commodity product and thus delay wide acceptance.
Solar home panels are at a point that they make finical sense, from a cost savings perspective.
The limitation is the crazy buy back rules they put in place for early adopters, is killing the market because
they are causing the utilities to push back on new installs.
I think there may be some room for the refineries to buy all the surplus at near the wholesale rate, and store it as transport fuel
for their existing distribution infrastructure. Perhaps the payment for the surplus could be a fuel credit.
This is all market driven, people looking out for their own interest, but the choices have benefits beyond those interest.
Energy is the actual problem and always has been, AGW is simply a distraction from the real problem.
Click to expand...
I'm new to the board, just finished reading the entire thread. I laugh at the greenies, the ones I've seen on other boards. same old same old. Germany goes all in on renewables and basically says f you to the poor. They then realize that isn't a good idea and back off and bring back coal. So we have a lesson, one to which the world should pay attention to. and yet. the greenies make statements that how do we know the 3 time cost of KWH is due to renewables. It's amazing the stupid that is deployed in the green arena. Thanks for your post. You get it.
 
jc456 said:
I'm new to the board, just finished reading the entire thread. I laugh at the greenies, the ones I've seen on other boards. same old same old. Germany goes all in on renewables and basically says f you to the poor. They then realize that isn't a good idea and back off and bring back coal. So we have a lesson, one to which the world should pay attention to. and yet. the greenies make statements that how do we know the 3 time cost of KWH is due to renewables. It's amazing the stupid that is deployed in the green arena. Thanks for your post. You get it.
Click to expand...
Home solar can make economic sense, but only because the homeowner does not pay wholesale rates for electricity.
He also does not pay taxes on electricity he does not purchase, nor income tax on the income not required to cover the expense.
What all this means is that for many, the cost of electricity from solar panels can help the monthly income balance.
I often hear people talk about return on investment, but I think it would be better to think of in like a CD deposit.
A system like this one would take about $16K to install,
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1893...r-system-with-solaredge-and-24x-lg-300-panels
but would produce about 900 Kwh per month, or $90 at a $.10 per Kwh rate.
that is $1080 per year in savings, that is a 6.7% interest rate, and the money shows up every month,
in the forms of not being spent.
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

"Things are going to get more heated..." Clever play on words! :thumbs:

IIRC, not too long ago I read that Germany and a few other EU countries are also going to once again start using coal! The "renewables" just aren't doing the job expected of them at a price people can afford, so even though Merkel and other leaders agreed to the Paris Accord in theory, people expect to stay warm in the Winter months. I got the impression that the coal would be used in personal home heating - in a furnace or something similar - and not heat supplied by a utility using coal, but I could be mistaken about that. Interesting......
Click to expand...

Global C02 emission was flat for third straight year in 2016 even as the global economy grew. There renewables supplied more than half the global electricity demand growth.

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/2...traight-year-even-as-global-economy-grew.html

While India plan to have nearly 60% of electricity capacity from non-fossil fuels by 2027.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/21/india-renewable-energy-paris-climate-summit-target

Also, UK had this year it’s first day without coal power since the industrial revolution and plan to close its last coal power plant in 2025.

Britain powered 24 hours without coal for first time in 135 years in 'watershed moment' | The Independent

Also new installations of solar and wind power are well below fossil fuel or nuclear options in many countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ble-energy-costs-leads-to-record-global-boost

That at the same time you will continue to see a drastic reduction in cost of both solar power and battery technology.

https://www.reuters.com/article/sin...er-powering-global-demand-irena-idUSL4N1MY2F8
 
jc456 said:
I'm new to the board, just finished reading the entire thread. I laugh at the greenies, the ones I've seen on other boards. same old same old. Germany goes all in on renewables and basically says f you to the poor. They then realize that isn't a good idea and back off and bring back coal. So we have a lesson, one to which the world should pay attention to. and yet. the greenies make statements that how do we know the 3 time cost of KWH is due to renewables. It's amazing the stupid that is deployed in the green arena. Thanks for your post. You get it.
Click to expand...


In countries with cold winters well build houses with good insulation is the most important factor for household’s energy cost. For example, that British household spend twice the amount on energy compared to German households.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ.../uk-homes-most-expensive-heat-eu-fuel-poverty

You can also look at my country Sweden that successfully switched from oil to district then it comes to heating.

District heating

While at the same Sweden are building more passive houses that needs little or no heating even during the cold Swedish winters.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/sweden-passive-housing-co2-reduction-targets

That this a long with other actions have resulted in that Sweden in many way are in front then it comes to transition to a sustainable economy.

How Sweden Became the World?s Most Sustainable Country: Top 5 Reasons

https://sweden.se/nature/7-examples-of-sustainability-in-sweden/

While at the same time for example is the best country for business according to Forbes.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...ost-other-countries-at-just-about-everything/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom