• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Most of The World Could Be 100% Powered With Renewables by 2050

The data I provided was for CO2 emissions per kWh, with extremely small emissions for renewables compared to coal and natural gas.
Kill off 75% of the population and it might be feasible. But barring that it's just hot air.
Also it is now a rapid build out of renewable energy all across the world.

The demand out reaches all supply.
 
Kill off 75% of the population and it might be feasible. But barring that it's just hot air.
If the poor around the would would stop having babies they cannot support, that would be adequate. Time would equalize it all.
 
Lots of things could happen if they were wanted "badly enough" but as demand for fossil fuels falls so does their cost because their supply exists. IMHO, short of a huge tax (effective ban?) on these current fossil fuels it is extremely unlikely to happen.
Fossil fuels will be around until they run out.
 
Life cycle emissions includes all the emissions during the lifetime of a energy source. So that includes the emissions from mining, manufacturing and transport.

Renewable energy sources are also already efficient and have a high Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROI).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800919320543

A transition away from fossil fuels are now also happening in more sectors.




They're based on EROI given lab conditions, as explained to you earlier. In real conditions, their returns go down considerably. Why do you think businesses have to keep working on improving them?

Here's what makes matters worse: they're done by for-profit corporations that need to produce more each time and want people to consume more each time in order to maximize profits. That will increase emissions considerably and derail sustainability.
 
Problems happen long before they run out. That is, when their energy returns are too low.
No doubt. Either way, thats far too late to do anything about it.
 
No doubt. Either way, thats far too late to do anything about it.

Meanwhile, the world requires high energy returns and supply, and the equivalent of fossil fuels but with no emissions, i.e., high energy density and petrochemicals.
 
They're based on EROI given lab conditions, as explained to you earlier. In real conditions, their returns go down considerably. Why do you think businesses have to keep working on improving them?

Here's what makes matters worse: they're done by for-profit corporations that need to produce more each time and want people to consume more each time in order to maximize profits. That will increase emissions considerably and derail sustainability.

The very low life cycle CO2 emissions and high Energy Return on Energy Invested for renewable energy is based on real world conditions. There are also many advancements in making renewable energy more efficient and sustainable.


 
The very low life cycle CO2 emissions and high Energy Return on Energy Invested for renewable energy is based on real world conditions. There are also many advancements in making renewable energy more efficient and sustainable.



They're not, as explained to you earlier. That is, they don't account for things like rodents, dust, lack of insolation, and more, which is why energy returns of 30 in labs go down to less than 2 when one looks at actual power generated vs. nameplate power.

Here's what makes matters worse: 70 pct of mining equipment, up to half of manufacturing, and the bulk of shipping involve fossil fuels. The counterarguments involve promised gamechangers, not actual, widespread deployment. Why? Because according to one study, it will take more than a hundred years to make the transition to fossil-free, industrialized economies.

On top of that, the assumption is that the already-low energy returns can be ramped up considerably to meet diminishing returns, which as it is is already a problem with basic needs: to meet just those for the global economy, we will need the equivalent of one more earth. To meet your cute Norway fairy land, we'll need up to four earths.

It gets even worse when you mix energy returns with credit, e.g., low costs means the energy returns are higher. Remember what happened during the initial part of the pandemic, when oil prices at one point went down to zero dollars?

Here's the punch line: there's no problem when it comes to demand. As explained to you multiple times, and which you can't address, most of the corporations that will create that fairy land are for-profit, which means they operate with maximization of profits driven by constantly increasing production and consumption. In short, what they want is the complete opposite of your sustainability fantasy tale, and most of the world population know that, too, as they want what Norway has, which is not only one ICE vehicle for leisurely rural trips but an EV to for leisurely urban trips.
 
They're not, as explained to you earlier. That is, they don't account for things like rodents, dust, lack of insolation, and more, which is why energy returns of 30 in labs go down to less than 2 when one looks at actual power generated vs. nameplate power.

Here's what makes matters worse: 70 pct of mining equipment, up to half of manufacturing, and the bulk of shipping involve fossil fuels. The counterarguments involve promised gamechangers, not actual, widespread deployment. Why? Because according to one study, it will take more than a hundred years to make the transition to fossil-free, industrialized economies.

On top of that, the assumption is that the already-low energy returns can be ramped up considerably to meet diminishing returns, which as it is is already a problem with basic needs: to meet just those for the global economy, we will need the equivalent of one more earth. To meet your cute Norway fairy land, we'll need up to four earths.

It gets even worse when you mix energy returns with credit, e.g., low costs means the energy returns are higher. Remember what happened during the initial part of the pandemic, when oil prices at one point went down to zero dollars?

Here's the punch line: there's no problem when it comes to demand. As explained to you multiple times, and which you can't address, most of the corporations that will create that fairy land are for-profit, which means they operate with maximization of profits driven by constantly increasing production and consumption. In short, what they want is the complete opposite of your sustainability fantasy tale, and most of the world population know that, too, as they want what Norway has, which is not only one ICE vehicle for leisurely rural trips but an EV to for leisurely urban trips.

Do you have any sources? That far as I can recall you have previously only provided an outdated source from 2013 about energy return for solar panels. That solar panels, wind power and other forms of green technologies have become and continue to become much more efficient and sustainable.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...greener-than-continuing-use-fossil-fuels.html


I have also provided examples of how it’s possible to reduce energy and resource consumption, while at the same time creating better societies and more meaningful lives.

 
Do you have any sources? That far as I can recall you have previously only provided an outdated source from 2013 about energy return for solar panels. That solar panels, wind power and other forms of green technologies have become and continue to become much more efficient and sustainable.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...greener-than-continuing-use-fossil-fuels.html


I have also provided examples of how it’s possible to reduce energy and resource consumption, while at the same time creating better societies and more meaningful lives.


I must have given around a dozen sources in previous posts.

To recap, as Hall and Inman show, the energy returns across the board are not high, and likely because much of mining, up to half of manufacturing, and most of shipping involve fossil fuels which are also experiencing low returns. The same applies to minerals, and the main cause is diminishing returns.

To make matters worse, the corporations that are manufacturing renewable energy products are for-profit, which means they want people to produce, borrow, spend, and consume more so that companies can earn more and then re-invest those to increase production, borrowing, spend, and consume more. In short, capitalism.

That means the goal is the complete opposite of sustainability. Because of diminishing returns, energy returns will not go up, but because of capitalism, demand will keep going up.

Even the examples that you give go against you: the goal of being more efficient in for-profit capitalism isn't to conserve but to produce and consume more.
 
Kill off 75% of the population and it might be feasible. But barring that it's just hot air.

The demand out reaches all supply.
You are close. Malthusian leftists believe that the planet can only sustain 3 billion people. Which means they want to achieve the deaths of 5 billion out of the 8 billion people on the planet, or 62.5% of the world's population. We are dealing with truly sick and twisted people here.
 
I must have given around a dozen sources in previous posts.

To recap, as Hall and Inman show, the energy returns across the board are not high, and likely because much of mining, up to half of manufacturing, and most of shipping involve fossil fuels which are also experiencing low returns. The same applies to minerals, and the main cause is diminishing returns.

To make matters worse, the corporations that are manufacturing renewable energy products are for-profit, which means they want people to produce, borrow, spend, and consume more so that companies can earn more and then re-invest those to increase production, borrowing, spend, and consume more. In short, capitalism.

That means the goal is the complete opposite of sustainability. Because of diminishing returns, energy returns will not go up, but because of capitalism, demand will keep going up.

Even the examples that you give go against you: the goal of being more efficient in for-profit capitalism isn't to conserve but to produce and consume more.

Your sources are based on outdated data. While yes there are a lot of economical and political challenges to a transition to a sustainable society.

Still there are also many positive examples of a transition to a more sustainable society. Like for example investments into public transport, bike path and walkability.


While also for example right to repair laws.


Also the rapid transition towards renewable electricity generation means that more industries can be decarbonized.

 
Your sources are based on outdated data. While yes there are a lot of economical and political challenges to a transition to a sustainable society.

Still there are also many positive examples of a transition to a more sustainable society. Like for example investments into public transport, bike path and walkability.


While also for example right to repair laws.


Also the rapid transition towards renewable electricity generation means that more industries can be decarbonized.


There has been no massive developments to counter diminishing returns, especially in fossil fuels and mining, on which renewable energy is heavily dependent.

Also, you're still missing the point: use of such energy involves for-profit corporations that want the opposite of sustainability.

That means not only will there be no decarbonization, there will be more emissions due to diminishing returns plus overproduction coupled with overconsumption.
 
There has been no massive developments to counter diminishing returns, especially in fossil fuels and mining, on which renewable energy is heavily dependent.

Also, you're still missing the point: use of such energy involves for-profit corporations that want the opposite of sustainability.

That means not only will there be no decarbonization, there will be more emissions due to diminishing returns plus overproduction coupled with overconsumption.

There are now a lot of advancement in both reducing CO2 emissions and energy consumption. Even if of course a lot more effort is needed.


 
There are now a lot of advancement in both reducing CO2 emissions and energy consumption. Even if of course a lot more effort is needed.



Advancement in for-profit capitalism leads to more production and consumption, and thus the opposite of sustainability.

In addition, dramatic increases in production and consumption negate decreases in CO2 emissions. And those increases are likely given a global population that wants to copy Norway and others.
 
I wonder if the regulations would be lower if they did not use the reactor to generate grid electricity? If so I could see an Exxon or Chevron building a nuclear power plant to make fuel.
Expanding on this idea, a bit, I wonder about the fuel production from one of the new SMR reactors?
Rolls-Royce SMR
The company has been given financial support by the UK Government to develop its design. It is estimated that the 470 MWe units will cost around £1.8 billion once in full production,
So a 470 MW plant running at 92% Capacity Factor would produce 3,787 GWh per year.
At the lower 60% energy storage efficiency this would produce 68.8 million gallons of gasoline, or jet fuel per year.
Assuming a wholesale price of $2.5 a gallon, this would generate $172 million a year.
I suspect they would need to be at near $5 a gallon to justify the costs.
 
I wonder if the regulations would be lower if they did not use the reactor to generate grid electricity? If so I could see an Exxon or Chevron building a nuclear power plant to make fuel.
Here's more regarding the potential for nuclear energy:

 
Here's more regarding the potential for nuclear energy:

I like the idea of fusion, but it still seems just out of reach, which is where it was 43 years ago when I got out of college.
I was being recruited by Los Alamos, saying, be a part of the next great advance in energy!
There may still be something to cold fusion, but it seems just as unstable.
Who knows AI might be the ticket, but I hope they used the ethics engine.
 
I like the idea of fusion, but it still seems just out of reach, which is where it was 43 years ago when I got out of college.
I was being recruited by Los Alamos, saying, be a part of the next great advance in energy!
There may still be something to cold fusion, but it seems just as unstable.
Who knows AI might be the ticket, but I hope they used the ethics engine.
Right now the best bet might be the super deep drilled geothermal that is just going into commercial trials. You can drill almost anywhere and find abundant power at much cheaper costs than Nuclear or Fusion. There is still work to be done to make deep drilled geothermal a fully practical option, but probably much easier hurdles to jump than with Fusion at this stage.
 
Right now the best bet might be the super deep drilled geothermal that is just going into commercial trials. You can drill almost anywhere and find abundant power at much cheaper costs than Nuclear or Fusion. There is still work to be done to make deep drilled geothermal a fully practical option, but probably much easier hurdles to jump than with Fusion at this stage.
With seasonal grid scale energy storage, I think Solar has a real chance, of providing sustainable energy, at least until we get the
something like fusion figured out.
 
With seasonal grid scale energy storage, I think Solar has a real chance, of providing sustainable energy, at least until we get the
something like fusion figured out.
Grid scale energy storage is not really figured out yet, Batteries are expensive, and options like large scale pumped hydro are location specific as well as heavy on upfront investment. I read that smaller scale pumped hydro style storage using abandoned mines etc is being seriously looked at. Will be interesting to see if that goes anywhere. The other option that is only just entering the mix is the potential for hydrogen powered generation to carry some of the load when solar and wind are not generating enough. It seems like now we are looking we are finding more geological (green) hydrogen than we ever thought existed. My current thinking is that we will end up with much more location specific solutions than today, using a location specific mix of an array of technologies. Other options like deep drilled geothermal can also become base load plants when solar and wind aren't keeping up. The days of only using hydro, geothermal, and oil/gas/coal fired plants are behind us I think. I think our generation will also be more distributed than today. That has some infrastructure costs, but also adds resilience in a climate change impacted world.
 
Back
Top Bottom