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Most conservative males keep reposting nonsense they know is not true about abortion.

Calling someone's comment a lie when a misunderstanding of the subject was the genesis of the comment is one of the more childish and irresponsible tactics of conservatives. For some inexplicable reason they think it is a clever and effective attempt to denigrate those they disagree with.

Nobody is fooled by this technique so why do something that makes you look ignorant and dishonest?

A misunderstanding does not require someone to fabricate someone’s position and then argue against it. That’s the persons choice. And it’s still a lie. I am not calling the misunderstanding itself the lie. [emoji2369]
 
...What counts is taking a moral stance. That's why we have governments. Even if it meant every single woman would decide, in protest, to have an illegal abortion, what counts is that the government has taken the position that abortion is wrong and illegal. Women getting illegal abortions on their own isn't something the government can really do anything about, so then, let it be, i say.

I disagree. Abortion can be a moral choice. Our government supports Religious Liberty.

RCRC is unique in the reproductive health, rights and justice movements, because it draws on the moral power of diverse religious communities.

From the ;Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice :

Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.


The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
 
Minnie does not lie. You obviously cannot provide a quote - I accept your surrender.

Minnie does lie. I don’t need to quote what you can simply go back and read. You obviously can not take the effort - I accept your surrender.
 
1.)Why would I want to accomplish the same results while endorsing abortion for all? That kind of destroys the point. I don't care what results pro-choice countries have.
2.) You're endorsing an immoral position.
3.) I'm glad pro choicers like their laws, but if Poland can accomplish the same things(and by all stats, are much more successful, their abortion rate is far below the US average), and have similar/better results, then they are a superior position both morally and statistically.

1.) thank you for exposing your hypocrisy then LOL
2.) based on your feelings and nothign else. Morals are subjective and millions of people think violating women's rights and treating them as lessers is immoral also. So why are your subjective morals better than theirs and vice versa?
The difference is they are OK with you exercising your morals while you want to force your orals on them. No thanks, america will be sticking with rights and freedoms
3.) again thats just your feelings and ZERO facts supporting your claim of "superior position both morally and statistically." while ignoring womans rights . .wont be happening in america just like the majority of first world countries with rights and freedoms. You are free to move to poland though.

Rights and freedoms > than your feelings

Ill ask you AGAIN
why do you want something that is less in the middle and something that violates women's current rights?
why do you want to change a system that allows both sides to practice their morals to a system that forces YOUR morals on others?
 
Minnie does lie. I don’t need to quote what you can simply go back ait.

nd read. You obviously can not take the effort - I accept your surrender.

Yes please quote. I cannot find where she has lied. And when she does find out she is wrong, she acknowledges and corrects.

But yes, if you are going to call somebody a liar....show the quotes.
 
Back in the past, this was true. Today, not so much. Many of the newer prolifers have no religion at all, and as such, the religion aspect plays a declining part in the people's desire to simply to treat the issue as humanely as possible.

J'accuse! You have yet to describe how a non-religious person CAN enact religious law. Between the two of us, only you are talking about religion. I've never brought it up. I'm more worried about making the world more humane for all life; people, animals, etc, regardless of the religion, or non-religion, anyone follows.

As far as I know 100% of the anti-abortion organizations making up the movement are connected to either the Catholic Church, the Evangelical movement, the Lutheran Church or The Southern Baptist Convention. Whether or not a supporter has a religion or not makes no difference to the movement. The movement is still a religious one. And any bills proposed in state and federal legislative bodies have been initiated by religious organizations. In legislative hearings the people that speak in favor of an anti-abortion bill are from religious organizations. Those voting anti-abortion bills into law defend their vote in terms of their religion. It is not necessary that everyone supporting anti-abortion law be religious for the movement itself to be supported by churches and other religious organizations.

In order to understand a movement of any kind it is necessary to know it's history, who supports it, what it's goals are and how they are organized to achieve those goals. The beliefs of the anti-abortion movement: determination of women's duty, the beginning of life, the sanctity of life, the rights of a fertilized egg, the supremacy of the fertilized egg over already born humans, God's disapproval ending a human life in utero, all of these have been determined by church organizations.

Anyone has a right to try to get their beliefs enacted into law. I was wrong to state that you did not have that right. What I should have said is that religious organizations are prevented from getting the tenets of their religion made into law by the 1st Amendment. The government may make church laws into civil law but it will be immediately challenged because it would be an endorsement of one religions belief and the 1st Amendment prohibits that . Religion is at the heart of the anti-abortion's movement and needs to be discussed.
 
What counts is taking a moral stance. That's why we have governments. Even if it meant every single woman would decide, in protest, to have an illegal abortion, what counts is that the government has taken the position that abortion is wrong and illegal.

Governments that take a moral stance are usually theocracies enforcing the morality of only one religious body. The moral stance that abortion is wrong and illegal is a tenet of conservative Christian denominations.

Women getting illegal abortions on their own isn't something the government can really do anything about, so then, let it be, i say.

And this statement is exactly why most people call the anti-abortion position inhumane. To require government to declare abortion immoral because the fetus is sacred life and let illegal abortions "be" is essentially declaring women's lives are not sacred and can be sacrificed.
 
idk what I said to get people to quote me 14 times on this thread(most by the same person), but I'm not responding to each and every one. I have a life. I'll pick the few posts i find most interesting and go with it.
 
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Why would I want to accomplish the same results while endorsing abortion for all? That kind of destroys the point. I don't care what results pro-choice countries have. You're endorsing an immoral position. I'm glad pro choicers like their laws, but if Poland can accomplish the same things(and by all stats, are much more successful, their abortion rate is far below the US average), and have similar/better results, then they are a superior position both morally and statistically.

Women in Poland who want an abortion go to Germany to get it. Making it illegal did not stop it.

As Poland mulls new abortion bill, women head to Germany - CNN
 
consider it as you will, the minute the research is final on all the causes and factors of abortion, so legislation can be tweaked and modified, it's illegalized at that point. Your invented right to deny life to play video games, and go "ohhhh that's okay!" has absolutely no room in my opinions here. I just want research to be done and completed, and as more information comes out every year, the less i'd consider waiting.

A pregnant woman can play video games, ffs.
 
Minnie does lie. I don’t need to quote what you can simply go back and read. You obviously can not take the effort - I accept your surrender.

Stop lying.

ETA: The fact that you refuse to provide quotes of where you think Minnie lied says it all.
 
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As far as I know 100% of the anti-abortion organizations making up the movement are connected to either the Catholic Church, the Evangelical movement, the Lutheran Church or The Southern Baptist Convention. Whether or not a supporter has a religion or not makes no difference to the movement. The movement is still a religious one. And any bills proposed in state and federal legislative bodies have been initiated by religious organizations. In legislative hearings the people that speak in favor of an anti-abortion bill are from religious organizations. Those voting anti-abortion bills into law defend their vote in terms of their religion. It is not necessary that everyone supporting anti-abortion law be religious for the movement itself to be supported by churches and other religious organizations.

In order to understand a movement of any kind it is necessary to know it's history, who supports it, what it's goals are and how they are organized to achieve those goals. The beliefs of the anti-abortion movement: determination of women's duty, the beginning of life, the sanctity of life, the rights of a fertilized egg, the supremacy of the fertilized egg over already born humans, God's disapproval ending a human life in utero, all of these have been determined by church organizations.

Anyone has a right to try to get their beliefs enacted into law. I was wrong to state that you did not have that right. What I should have said is that religious organizations are prevented from getting the tenets of their religion made into law by the 1st Amendment. The government may make church laws into civil law but it will be immediately challenged because it would be an endorsement of one religions belief and the 1st Amendment prohibits that . Religion is at the heart of the anti-abortion's movement and needs to be discussed.

Just because hitler liked dogs, doesn't mean it's bad for you to like dogs. I think your post, and your reasoning is entirely ridiculous. As I am limited in time, I wouldn't normally respond to your ridiculous assertions. But I address it briefly because i think you expose the sort of elitism may pro-abortion advocates have for those in the pro-life "movement".

What, do tell, is a "movement"? Had we had the internet in the 1860's, with freedom of information laws, how many questionable things would we have found on the abolition "movement"? how many "rich, radical, religious people" would we have found at the head of such organizations? Yet, you do not question them. You question to pro-life "movement", despite the fact that the "movement" involves millions of individuals who just happen to vote for pro-life causes on the ballot. That's why I used the term. Sure, there's tons of pro-life organizations, but I don't refer to them because I'm not part of any organization. Only my place in the wider movement as a whole, do I refer to. I'm just an individual with an opinion. Just as I do not the hold the racism of Margaret Sanger and the eugenics-oriented ideology that many pro-abortion organizations have historically held, I do not hold that against you person, as you have suddenly held against me. I've never been part of the catholic church in my life, so it's absolutely confusing and diabolical that would dare rob me of my agency, and hold their sins against me.

Here's a warning for you. Whatever your "place" is in the pro-choice movement, very rarely, if ever, is there a "good guy" at the head of these issues. Just as I have relized this about many pro life orgs, you should see the same in the many pro-choice orgs you look at.


You want to talk about religion? be my guest, and im fine with discussing such things, but that's entirely different from abortion and my reasons for abortion. I'm not here to discuss what other people want on this issue, but only what I want in this issue. I quite honestly find it insulting you want to talk about whatever religious strawman you want to bring, when I, myself, am not even religious.
 
Women in Poland who want an abortion go to Germany to get it. Making it illegal did not stop it.

As Poland mulls new abortion bill, women head to Germany - CNN


I disagree. People are humans, and those with the resources to side step laws for their own conveniance, will do so. Fine. I have no issue with this. Their guilt is on them, and I expect the polish AND german government to do nothing about it.

However, the fact is, many women were discouraged from getting an abortion, and the few women that do go so far as to go to germany, do not contribute significantly to german's abortion rate. Taken together, both poland's and German's abortion rate are lower than the US's. I have pointed this out dozens of times, and many people just side step it. But the fact is, polish abortion laws have contributed to an overall abortion rate on the continent, and therefore far below the US average. How much less would the abortion rate be, if Germany copied their laws as well?
 
Women in Poland who want an abortion go to Germany to get it. Making it illegal did not stop it.

As Poland mulls new abortion bill, women head to Germany - CNN
Does EVERY polish woman who wants an abortion go to germany?

I'll answer for you: No. I don't know why this so hard for you to get, i keep bringing it up. The fact that Poland outlaws abortion contributes to an abortion rate, for both Poland and Germany, to be far lower than the US's.
 
Does EVERY polish woman who wants an abortion go to germany?

I'll answer for you: No. I don't know why this so hard for you to get, i keep bringing it up. The fact that Poland outlaws abortion contributes to an abortion rate, for both Poland and Germany, to be far lower than the US's.

And that is awful
 
Governments that take a moral stance are usually theocracies enforcing the morality of only one religious body.
really? from what i've seen, they're usually secular governments trying to enforce a liberal idea of "human rights", through public condemnation on issues like the environment, LGBT, bigotry, Israel/Palestine conflict, etc.

And this statement is exactly why most people call the anti-abortion position inhumane. To require government to declare abortion immoral because the fetus is sacred life and let illegal abortions "be" is essentially declaring women's lives are not sacred and can be sacrificed.
You're worried about something not being sacred? since when did you become the religious one in this conversation?
 
I disagree. Abortion can be a moral choice. Our government supports Religious Liberty.

RCRC is unique in the reproductive health, rights and justice movements, because it draws on the moral power of diverse religious communities.

From the ;Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice :




The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

and? When did I ever bring a religious argument into this. You keep doing this because you want to straw man my argument when i'm not even a christian.

Now, are many christians against abortion? sure. But i'm not talking about their opinion, im talking about my opinion. I've never introduced religion into this, nor do I care about religion. That's you're doing it, and it appears to be a freudian slip as it makes YOUR position out to be the religious, cultic position.
 
It is not governments role to make such judgements.

nor should they make judgements on environment issues, hmmm?

The government makes judgements all the time. That is one of their roles, it's why we have a judiciary.
 
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