More than 90% of new renewable energy capacity is now cheaper than fossil fuels

[CLAX1911]

Assuming personal transportation like cars will even be viable at all is questionable IMO.

Because you're not going to need to go anywhere?

 

[pedex]

Because you're not going to need to go anywhere?

No but people have forgotten the past. Our energy consumption and lifestyles has always been driven by what's available at the time. Cities were built because they eliminated the need for a lot of transportation. We destroyed that in the US when gas powered cars became the norm but it took decades. The most efficient way we've ever had to move people and goods is electric rail and water transportation. That's still true today. We had a very low energy transportation network already that took decades to build. In most cities it got destroyed in just 2 to 3 years in favor of busses and personal cars. I think it's pretty myopic and misguided to assume that will last indefinitely. Alternative energy sources have very low leverage in comparison to petroleum.

This whole situation regardless of pollution is gonna be an issue at some point and to a degree already is as the energy leverage of fossil fuels continues to decrease as those resources deplete. It requires a holistic approach. Not the knee jerk reaction ad hoc nonsense being done currently. Just my 2 cents.

 

[CLAX1911]

No but people have forgotten the past. Our energy consumption and lifestyles has always been driven by what's available at the time. Cities were built because they eliminated the need for a lot of transportation. We destroyed that in the US when gas powered cars became the norm but it took decades. The most efficient way we've ever had to move people and goods is electric rail and water transportation.

Only where those seats are available and feasible.

That's still true today. We had a very low energy transportation network already that took decades to build.

For transport where there are no canals for railways anywhere near me.

In most cities it got destroyed in just 2 to 3 years in favor of busses and personal cars. I think it's pretty myopic and misguided to assume that will last indefinitely.

It'll last until something better comes along. If rail and canal were better we would have invented the personal car.

Alternative energy sources have very low leverage in comparison to petroleum.

Well what other energy sources are there with solar I think they're limited. Nuclear would be great but we don't want to do that

This whole situation regardless of pollution is gonna be an issue at some point and to a degree already is as the energy leverage of fossil fuels continues to decrease as those resources deplete. It requires a holistic approach. Not the knee jerk reaction ad hoc nonsense being done currently. Just my 2 cents.

Sure but until that time comes why be inconvenience

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Why don't you come out and admit that you would rather people not have a choice to own cars of any kind?

The Netherlands that invested in public transport, cycling paths and walkable neighbors are also a good place to drive a car for those who still want and need to. That it's both less congested, dangerous and stressful.

The Best and Worst Countries for Drivers (Part 1)

Where the U.S. ranks may surprise you. If you've ever traveled abroad, you know that the driving experience can differ wildly from country to country. Global laws vary, and it just so happens that the unofficial rules and customs of the road vary,

blog.sscsinc.com

U.S. road deaths far outnumber those in Europe. Why?

On a per capita basis, there are nine times as many road deaths in Wyoming as in Ireland. What is going on?

bigthink.com

While at the same time it's possible with a transition to electric cars.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Norway on track to be first to go all-electric

Nine in 10 new cars in the country are now battery-powered, and it aims to hit 100% later this year.

www.bbc.com

 

[pedex]

The Netherlands that invested in public transport, cycling paths and walkable neighbors are also a good place to drive a car for those who still want and need to. That it's both less congested, dangerous and stressful.

The Best and Worst Countries for Drivers (Part 1)

Where the U.S. ranks may surprise you. If you've ever traveled abroad, you know that the driving experience can differ wildly from country to country. Global laws vary, and it just so happens that the unofficial rules and customs of the road vary,

blog.sscsinc.com

U.S. road deaths far outnumber those in Europe. Why?

On a per capita basis, there are nine times as many road deaths in Wyoming as in Ireland. What is going on?

bigthink.com

While at the same time it's possible with a transition to electric cars.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Norway on track to be first to go all-electric

Nine in 10 new cars in the country are now battery-powered, and it aims to hit 100% later this year.

www.bbc.com

Ok but why do you not hype ALL the other things that have to go with it to make it happen?

 

[Michael Cole]

Just imagine in 10 years those things will all be piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them. If you have one that's 8 months old and it has battery damage it just gets thrown in the dump.

You obviously haven't heard of Redwood Materials. What you claim is false.



Not only are used batteries recycled, but the returned batteries are also being used to power data centers.



I don't know who told you batteries go to the landfill, but they're lying.

 

[Lord of Planar]

The Netherlands that invested in public transport, cycling paths and walkable neighbors are also a good place to drive a car for those who still want and need to. That it's both less congested, dangerous and stressful.

The Best and Worst Countries for Drivers (Part 1)

Where the U.S. ranks may surprise you. If you've ever traveled abroad, you know that the driving experience can differ wildly from country to country. Global laws vary, and it just so happens that the unofficial rules and customs of the road vary,

blog.sscsinc.com

U.S. road deaths far outnumber those in Europe. Why?

On a per capita basis, there are nine times as many road deaths in Wyoming as in Ireland. What is going on?

bigthink.com

While at the same time it's possible with a transition to electric cars.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Norway on track to be first to go all-electric

Nine in 10 new cars in the country are now battery-powered, and it aims to hit 100% later this year.

www.bbc.com

Yet if you do searches, you find most families cannot buy cars. This is why they don't have congested streets.

 

[pedex]

You obviously haven't heard of Redwood Materials. What you claim is false.



Not only are used batteries recycled, but the returned batteries are also being used to power data centers.



I don't know who told you batteries go to the landfill, but they're lying.

20GWhrs of batteries recycled in one year..................drop in bucket

 

[Michael Cole]

20GWhrs of batteries recycled in one year..................drop in bucket

???

Batteries are recycled, not put in landfills.

American Battery Technology Company is another recycler.

Powering the Future of Sustainable Energy – American Battery Technology Company

americanbatterytechnology.com

Batteries are recycled. They're not "piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them." That's false.

 

[pedex]

???

Batteries are recycled, not put in landfills. If you can refute the point, be my guest.

American Battery Technology Company is another recycler.



Batteries are recycled. They're not "piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them." That's false.

Where do the rest that aren't recycled are going? Ya know scale? Numbers. About 5% get get recycled if you Google it. Rest goes into landfills.

This is one of the problems with knee jerk reaction non planning and enormous problems.

 

[Michael Cole]

Where do the rest that aren't recycled are going?

You tell me.

Ya know scale? Numbers. About 5% get get recycled if you Google it. Rest goes into landfills.

Yeah, scale. Think about that for a moment.

This is one of the problems with knee jerk reaction non planning and enormous problems.

This makes no sense.

Again, batteries are recycled. They're not "piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them." That's false. There are plenty of companies who not only want to salvage them but do.

You haven't refuted anything. I've proven my point.

 

[pedex]

You tell me.


Yeah, scale. Think about that for a moment.


This makes no sense.

Again, batteries are recycled. They're not "piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them." That's false. There are plenty of companies who not only want to salvage them but do.

You haven't refuted anything. I've proven my point.

New lithium-ion battery recycling method is earth-friendly and more economical

Recently, a team of scientists from the U. S. Department of Energy Ames National Laboratory developed a new recycling process that eliminates the need for chemicals and high heat. This process, the Battery Recycling and Water Splitting (BRAWS) technology, uses only water and carbon dioxide to...

www.ameslab.gov

 

[pedex]

Knee jerk reaction planing in other words ad hoc nonsense planning at all despite the scale of the problem.

For example if you want replace every vehicle on US roads at current rates youre looking at about 19years just to produce the cars assuming none expire during that time frame.

Years to fix electrical grid to handle the load? We'll over 30. We're already having problems feeding data centers. More non planning.

 

[Michael Cole]

New lithium-ion battery recycling method is earth-friendly and more economical

Recently, a team of scientists from the U. S. Department of Energy Ames National Laboratory developed a new recycling process that eliminates the need for chemicals and high heat. This process, the Battery Recycling and Water Splitting (BRAWS) technology, uses only water and carbon dioxide to...

www.ameslab.gov

Okie-doke.

My point stands. Batteries are recycled. Recycling batteries is a profitable enterprise. Many capitalists are involved in the budding industry. Batteries are not "piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them." That's false. Third time now.

Here. Read about scale.

SC battery-recycling plant owner breaks ground on $3.5B Lowcountry project

Redwood Materials broke ground Jan. 23 on its $3.5 billion battery recycling site in Berkeley County with the aim of starting to reclaim materials needed to power electric vehicles before the end of the year. The Carson City, Nev.-based company plans to eventually hire 1,500 workers at its...

www.camphall.com

Toyota’s new North Carolina battery plant will use recycled materials

Redwood Materials will source main components for Toyota batteries made in NC

environmentamerica.org

Redwood buys batteries. Auto dismantlers don't pile the batteries in landfills. They sell them to Redwood and other recyclers.

Sell your EV Battery Pack Online | Redwood Materials

Get an instant offer for your electric vehicle battery pack. Quick pickup, hassle-free logistics, and payment within days of receipt. Leading the way in EV battery recycling.

www.redwoodmaterials.com

 

[pedex]

So what. Point stands MOST end up in landfills. Like 95% !!! How many Google sources do you want. I can wallpaper this place with them if you want.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Where do the rest that aren't recycled are going? Ya know scale? Numbers. About 5% get get recycled if you Google it. Rest goes into landfills.

This is one of the problems with knee jerk reaction non planning and enormous problems.

Are you talking about globally, or in the USA. I note you also provided no link., Are we supposed to take your word?

 

[Visbek]

Also doesn't take into account replacement cause these systems have very short lifespans.

Ive been using solar off grid for 8 years. It has its place but its not as simple as its made out to be.

There is a big difference between:

• Industrial solar, and consumer-grade rooftop solar.
• Solar panels made 8 years ago, and what's made today.

A handful of US states have suitable climate. Midwest and eastern parts of US water vapor/humidity and clouds as well as latitude reduce the output a great deal.

Yeah, not quite. More like 10-20% on bad days... and there's lots of good days.

There's a lot of excellent locations for wind in the midwest. There's a huge wind corridor covering MN, IA, NE, KS, OK, IL which have already have lots of turbines.

If wind turbines get cheap enough, we won't necessarily need to site them only in the most optimal locations. Let's say a wind turbine costs $3 million today; and that a turbine in KS produces 30% less electricity than one in IA. It will always be more cost-effective to put one in IA, but if the cost of a turbine drops to $1 million, then that's still going to cost less than other forms of energy generation. That includes lower transmission and transportation costs.

What we should be doing is a holistic approach and using nature instead of brutally overpowering it.

Okay, but... adding solar, wind and storage is not "brutally overpowering" nature. In fact, the environmental impact of just about every renewable is significantly lower than fossil fuels.

Still what is alos often unmentioned is all these "alternative" systems all require the fossil fueled industrial base we have to produce.

Except... well, it mostly doesn't. Sure, some of the components will require plastic, but it's not like the only way you can supply power to a solar panel factory is by burning fossil fuels.

 

[Michael Cole]

So what. Point stands MOST end up in landfills. Like 95% !!! How many Google sources do you want. I can wallpaper this place with them if you want.

My oh my.

You have no point. Batteries are recycled, as I showed you. Whether current capacity meets current demand is irrelevant. Capacity is growing to meet demand, as I also showed you. You haven't shown me anything. And now you're posting bizarre threats.

Give me the scenario you imagine. I'll get you started.

You own an EV and trade it in on a new one. What do you think the dealer does with the trade in?

You own an EV that has been totaled. You call a dismantler to tow it off your property. What do you think the dismantler does with the parts?

Your friends bought you an EV which you hate. Just want to see it gone. Do you pay a landfill fee for the battery or sell it to Redwood?

 

[pedex]

My oh my.

You have no point. Batteries are recycled, as I showed you. Whether current capacity meets current demand is irrelevant. Capacity is growing to meet demand, as I also showed you. You haven't shown me anything. And now you're posting bizarre threats.

Give me the scenario you imagine. I'll get you started.

You own an EV and trade it in on a new one. What do you think the dealer does with the trade in?

You own an EV that has been totaled. You call a dismantler to tow it off your property. What do you think the dismantler does with the parts?

Your friends bought you an EV which you hate. Just want to see it gone. Do you pay a landfill fee for the battery or sell it to Redwood?

My point again is you are wrong. Lithium batteries end up in landfills. About 95% of them at present.


Yes they are being recycled. At a pace far behind production. Similar to everything else in EV world.

By the time recycling catches we are going to have yet another enormous problem.

 

[Lord of Planar]

My point again is you are wrong. Lithium batteries end up in landfills. About 95% of them at present.


Yes they are being recycled. At a pace far behind production. Similar to everything else in EV world.

By the time recycling catches we are going to have yet another enormous problem.

Bullshit. Very few lithium batteries end up in landfills.

Link please.

 

[pedex]

Bullshit. Very few lithium batteries end up in landfills.

Link please.

Already provided one. Here's another.

EV Batteries An Environmental Time Bomb

The green transition is pushing electric vehicles upon the American public as it is believed that they are less greenhouse gas intensive than gasoline vehicles. Electric vehicles, however, require lithium-ion batteries that have issues regarding greenhouse gas emissions during the mining and...

www.americanenergyalliance.org

How many links would you like? They all say basically the same thing.

 

[Michael Cole]

My point again is you are wrong.

You can repeat this all day. I've proven my point. Your inability to accept facts is on you.

Lithium batteries end up in landfills. About 95% of them at present.

Unsupported and irrelevant. As I already stated.

Yes they are being recycled.

Now you're catching on.

Therefore, "Just imagine in 10 years those things will all be piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them" is false. Again.

At a pace far behind production. Similar to everything else in EV world.

Developing profitable recycling techniques and systems does not occur overnight. The processes used by Redwood and ABTC are proprietary and have taken years to develop.

The truth is, when I imagine 10 years from now, I see a lithium loop where lithium is extracted, processed and recycled. That's where we're headed.

Phone and other batteries end up in landfills. Not much we can do to prevent that. The argument is EV batteries, not Energizer Ds.

But hey, if you want to pay a landfill rather than sell your used EV battery, have at it.

 

[Visbek]

Yes it works anywhere, not the point. Let me give you a real world example. In Ohio I need double the solar capacity versus Denver Colorado.

You shouldn't, but let's say you are right.

Let's hypothesize that rooftop solar for a typical suburban home currently costs around $35,000. Yes, it'll be more effective to put that array in a sunnier location.

However, the point is that solar panel costs keep dropping. If that same array costs $30k, then $25k, then $20k, then it's going to make more and more economic sense to add that array.

Rooftop solar is already half the cost it was 10 years ago. It probably won't continue to drop that fast, but it will continue to fall.

Uh No it does not. The panels in real life degrade and lose capacity to the point where even 18 years is pushing it depending on the environment.

FYI, industry lifespan is closer to 30 years now.

ALL of these things depend on a fossil fuel dependent industrial base.

No, they don't. They depend on an industrial base, but not one powered exclusively by fossil fuels. You'll need some plastic

Not all things recycle well. Wind turbine blades for example. Doubt shipping my dead panels somewhere is worth it either.

It's not 2010, blades today can be mostly recycled. The remaining waste is a tiny fraction of waste generated by fossil fuels.

Old panels don't completely die, they just produce less power. As long as they aren't broken or unsafe, they can be sold to a secondary market and reused.

These systems have their place but they are not just plug and play usable anywhere despite all the hype and BS out there. Don't believe. Spend the $$ and try it.

Again, you're conflating residential and industrial. These are very, very different. Industrial wind and solar are much more efficient, both in terms of output and cost, than residential.

As a result, you aren't even thinking about what goes into producing something like a natural gas power plant. Those are massive installations that produce tons of waste, incur costs to transport the gas to the power station, and pollute environments in more ways than GHG emissions.

Surely you don't think that building a new fossil fuel plant, or a nuclear power plant, is "plug and play?"

 

[pedex]

You can repeat this all day. I've proven my point. Your inability to accept facts is on you.


Unsupported and irrelevant. As I already stated.


Now you're catching on.

Therefore, "Just imagine in 10 years those things will all be piled up in a garbage dump somewhere cuz nobody will want the salvage them" is false. Again.


Do you think developing profitable recycling techniques and systems occur overnight? The processes used by Redwood and ABTC are proprietary and have taken years to develop.

The truth is, when I imagine 10 years from now, I see a lithium loop where lithium is extracted, processed and recycled. That's where we're headed.

Phone and other batteries end up in landfills. Not much we can do to prevent that. The argument is EV batteries, not Energizer Ds.

But hey, if you want to pay a landfill rather than sell your used EV battery, have at it.

No its not irrelevant. We are going to have landfills filled with these things long before recycling catches up. And even with BPS present on many lithium packs these days spontaneous fires are a big problem with them. When you have 95% ending up in landfills and your recycling rate is in its infancy the numbers already indicate what's gonna happen. Why? Because we once again used zero foresight and planning.

 

[Visbek]

Already provided one. Here's another.

EV Batteries An Environmental Time Bomb

The green transition is pushing electric vehicles upon the American public as it is believed that they are less greenhouse gas intensive than gasoline vehicles. Electric vehicles, however, require lithium-ion batteries that have issues regarding greenhouse gas emissions during the mining and...

www.americanenergyalliance.org

How many links would you like? They all say basically the same thing.

That's because they're all funded by the same fossil fuel industry.

The American Energy Alliance is an astroturf organization founded by a former lobbyist for Koch. It's part of the Institute for Energy Research, which is funded by Koch, Exxon, the American Petroleum Institute, and so forth.

It's the same playbook that was run by the cigarette companies. They even use a lot of the same lobbyists, pseudoscientific approaches, marketing experts....