More proof that the God of the Bible is a lie

[Nezdragon]

You claim to use logic but your statements are not logical. But first, xians keep trying to use the "forcing their nonbelief on me" as some kind of reversal to the atheist claim. It's rather humorous. If xians stop pushing their religious dogma on everyone there would be no conflict. The conflict comes entirely as a defense against the religious.

The problem is, you have made a statement so broad as to be instantly false. "Christians [should] stop pushing their religious dogma on everyone." I see no particular group(s) of Christians labeled, so I'm going to infer that you mean all Christians. Similarly, you say "everyone" which I will take to mean literally everyone. Now, I am a Christian, and I have not forced my dogma on you. I have not ordered you to attend church, I have not forced you to pray in school against your will, I have not told you to read the Bible or face punishment, and I will never project my beliefs on anyone but a willing, open listener who raises a direct inquiry on what I believe. If that's not blunt enough, I will never push my religious dogma (not even sure I have any dogma) on anyone, much less everyone.

I try to be fair, and if you want to whittle that statement down to specific groups performing specific actions I will be more than happy to debate (or in some cases, agree) with you. However, if you want to stick with the only notion I can infer from your text, that you believe ALL Christians force their dogma on EVERYONE, then I'm going to call you out on it. :2razz:

Now, how can you claim to logically evaluate your faith? Belief in a deity is not logical because there is no evidence to support the claim.

I logically evaluate my faith based on evidence I observe to be true for myself. Using the literal as an example, I studied the book of Genesis in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that the Earth is 6000 years old, nor does it say that the 7 days were 24 hour days. I don't see why God has to operate on the same day length as the rest of us, so I have reconciled my creation stance with a scientific evolution stance. I believe that the laws of physics, evolution, and the other natural systems of order were set up so that God wouldn't have to babysit His creation. To be quite honest, there are parts of the Bible that confuse me, that contradict other parts. I'm still sorting out my beliefs, and I intend to get advice on the parts that I can't find satisfactory answers for. In the end, I may discover evidence (scientific or otherwise) that directly contradicts the core tenets of my faith, in which case I will hit the reset button and re-evaluate everything I know.

That, in a woefully incomplete nutshell, is how I logically evaluate my faith.

Apparently you don't see the difference, or choose not to.

Could be that it's late, but I'm not following. The difference with... what?

I thought you were going to get on the topic... ^that has nothing to do with the OP.

On the contrary, it has a fair amount to do with the OP. I was apparently too abstract in my reasoning, so I'll try and explain a bit more. The OP is wondering why famine, war, disease, disaster, poverty, and all the assorted works of darkness could exist when there is a loving God who could take it all away. I bring up the point that by using logic and (probably) government to suppress the violent human tendencies that cause the poverty and war, plus using science to take whatever means necessary to remove disease and famine, we could have ourselves a peaceful world.

Just as God has the power to change the world, so do we, in a sense. My example has us taking extreme, genocidal measures worthy of a Fourth Reich to solve the problems of disease, famine, poverty, and war. However, we also have the capacity within us to set aside our violent, selfish tendencies and use our great intellect and compassion for the benefit of all.

Even (heck, especially) as a Christian I find it ridiculous to expect God to coddle us when we are well capable of handling the problems we're currently faced with. If your neighborhood is flooding and you're waiting on a roof for God to lift you up, ignoring the rescue boats and helicopters... you're going to drown, and good riddance. Why rely on an omnipotent being that may very well not exist to solve all our problems for us... when we, ourselves, the human race, have the power to solve our own problems?

Did you really? I don't think so... or at least I didn't see it.

"Because even if God does exist..."

A bit vague, granted, so I just stated it more clearly above, in case there was any doubt.

Sorry but I have to disagree. The religious stance, as far as I'm aware of, is that god did it. Regardless of what "it" is. But you are correct, they are mutually exclusive, but then again you could also say that fairy tales and science are mutually exclusive.

As mentioned by EgoffTib, I stated they were not mutually exclusive. In fact, there are realms where a proper, healthy mix of the two can be a substantial benefit. Perhaps the greatest invention of the past half a millenia is the printing press. First book printed on it? The Bible. Mass production of literature allowed a spread in literature unseen in previous times, ushering in new ages of ingenuity and the growth of new ideas.

I won't hesitate to agree that religion is fundamentally incapable of explaining everything... but then, so is science. Science can tell me how my body works, how my neurons fire, how the hormones and fluids and salts all function. But science can never explain why I am here. It can never tell me what my purpose in life is. And despite all our advances, despite the atomic bomb and the space shuttle and the map of the genome... science has yet to create life from non-life. We can look into the heart of a supernova. We can see how space-time is bent around a black hole. We can study the fundamental particles of the universe. Out of all the many marvels we can observe, create, study, and destroy, and despite our intimate knowledge of their workings, we cannot create a mere single celled organism in a test tube.

If that's not an indication that life is something more than just the sum of it's parts... I don't know what is.

However, if we do create life in a test tube, I get to hit the aforementioned reset button.

Finally, a note of contention, Slippery. You level argument after argument against Christianity. Said arguments are usually broadly worded with an inference of unified oppression by all Christians against "non-believers." To boot, I haven't seen any similar arguments against other religions, such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, and so forth (if you have made such arguments, I retract the boot). I want to ask, partly in the spirit of debate but also out of curiosity... Why are you so adamant against Christianity? Do you have specific examples that have directly influenced your views, preferably any that happened to you personally? Are you willing to admit (or at least consider) that there are Christians who don't force their beliefs on others, Christians that simply want to live and let live? And finally, are you willing to admit (or, again, consider) that there are atheists who would still seek to subvert and destroy religion even if the religious become passive, private, and completely tolerant in their practices? Feel free to answer as you please.

 

[Nezdragon]

Ask a Christian. They seem fine with believing something with their soul rather than their brain. Also, it seems a bit asinine to try to apply logic to the illogical. If God exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress.

The actions of an omnipotent omniscient being are outside classification of good or evil by the very characteristics of being all knowing and all powerful.

That is, assuming God exists and is all knowing and all powerful, his actions are always as they should be and your analysis that they are evil is merely your subjective opinion due to your ignorance as compared to the omniscience of God.

I like these lines of thought and look forward to exploring them - when I'm less tired, of course. :2razz:

 

[politix]

I won't hesitate to agree that religion is fundamentally incapable of explaining everything... but then, so is science. Science can tell me how my body works, how my neurons fire, how the hormones and fluids and salts all function. But science can never explain why I am here. It can never tell me what my purpose in life is. And despite all our advances, despite the atomic bomb and the space shuttle and the map of the genome... science has yet to create life from non-life. We can look into the heart of a supernova. We can see how space-time is bent around a black hole. We can study the fundamental particles of the universe. Out of all the many marvels we can observe, create, study, and destroy, and despite our intimate knowledge of their workings, we cannot create a mere single celled organism in a test tube.

If that's not an indication that life is something more than just the sum of it's parts... I don't know what is.

However, if we do create life in a test tube, I get to hit the aforementioned reset button.

QUOTE]

Yes science CAN tell you what your purpose in life is....

it is to scavenge energy ( in the human case - mostly chemical energy) to to organise the energy, and reproduce so that your babies can do exactly the sam thing all over again ....sorry if it sounds a bit simple but thats pretty much it.....Some religious people may like to think there is a greater purpose to life. If you would like to show me some evidence on other purposes then please go ahead.

How can you say that science can never explain why you are here??? THat makes no sense. Science is YET to explain many many things but you cant know what discoveries lie ahead.....can you???? I think that religion is fundamentally incapable of explaining ANYTHING worthwhile that science cannot or will not explain.

BTW this is my first post on this site so apologies if ive done something wrong. And how do I put the quotes in dark blue boxes??

 

[emdash]

Ask a Christian. They seem fine with believing something with their soul rather than their brain. Also, it seems a bit asinine to try to apply logic to the illogical. If God exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress.

I like the way you think!

 

[First Thought]

Read up on space-time.

Anything in particular that you can recommend?

 

[First Thought]

Yes science CAN tell you what your purpose in life is....

it is to scavenge energy ( in the human case - mostly chemical energy) to to organise the energy, and reproduce so that your babies can do exactly the sam thing all over again ....sorry if it sounds a bit simple but thats pretty much it.....Some religious people may like to think there is a greater purpose to life. If you would like to show me some evidence on other purposes then please go ahead.

How can you say that science can never explain why you are here??? THat makes no sense. Science is YET to explain many many things but you cant know what discoveries lie ahead.....can you???? I think that religion is fundamentally incapable of explaining ANYTHING worthwhile that science cannot or will not explain.

That is hardly a decent response. What you have basically admitted is that science has no clue why we exist, so we go off of what we know(You are born, you procreate, you die). That hardly means that answer is correct, considering that we cannot chat with people who have died and passed on into the void.

BTW this is my first post on this site so apologies if ive done something wrong. And how do I put the quotes in dark blue boxes??

Look at your post again, you did not do "[ quote]"TEXT GOES HERE "[/ quote]" (without the spaces in the [])

 

[scourge99]

Anything in particular that you can recommend?

The universe in a nutshell by Hawking and/or the fabric of the cosmos by allen green (I think that's the author). Both have a few chapters dedicated to space-time theory that are good at explaining it in an easy to understand manner.

 

[First Thought]

The universe in a nutshell by Hawking and/or the fabric of the cosmos by allen green (I think that's the author). Both have a few chapters dedicated to space-time theory that are good at explaining it in an easy to understand manner.

Awesome, I'll look into those.

 

[Slippery Slope]

So how are they "forcing" their beliefs on you? Are they holding you down and smacking you with WWJD bracelets?

More obtuse baiting. I guess you think "force" only means something physical.

Then let us discuss that issue. Why should praying during school hours be prohibited?

If you'd follow along you might realize that I never said people shouldn't be allowed to pray at school or during school hours.

Do you feel that when someone is praying, they are "forcing their beliefs" on you?

Only if they are doing it out loud and in such a manner that I become involved just by being nearby.

 

[Slippery Slope]

Ask a Christian. They seem fine with believing something with their soul rather than their brain. Also, it seems a bit asinine to try to apply logic to the illogical. If God exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress.

If god exists... since there is no proof of such you might as well have said -If the giant in the story Jack and the Beanstalk exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress. Are you trying to argue with me simply to see words next to your name?

If you're mother were a wagon you'd have wheels.

 

[First Thought]

If god exists... since there is no proof of such you might as well have said -If the giant in the story Jack and the Beanstalk exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress. Are you trying to argue with me simply to see words next to your name?

If you're mother were a wagon you'd have wheels.

I am aware that there is no proof of God's existence. That's why they call it "faith".

 

[Nezdragon]

Only if they are doing it out loud and in such a manner that I become involved just by being nearby.

And just how would you become involved by being nearby someone who's praying out loud? Any examples?

If god exists... since there is no proof of such you might as well have said -If the giant in the story Jack and the Beanstalk exists, he is not limited by logic, for logic is merely a boundary which the human mind fails to transgress.

Interesting attempt at correlation, but the giant in the story is not omniscient or omnipotent.

There is no proof for you, perhaps. I have plenty of proof that God exists. However, for the most part this proof is subjective, mostly consisting of life experiences, personal observations, and more than a few adjustments to my worldview. My proof will not work for you and much of it won't work for anyone that isn't me. That is why I am one of the Christians who doesn't force my belief on others. I'm happy to talk about it when others ask, I enjoy a good debate such as this to increase my knowledge, but you'll never hear me say, "My way is the true way."

Oh, and I have a healthy dose of faith in my views. Thought I'd throw that in there for consideration.

Are you trying to argue with me simply to see words next to your name?

I can't speak for EgoffTib, but I have words next to my name regardless. I'm just here to learn.

If you're mother were a wagon you'd have wheels.

I can't say I've ever heard that particular metaphor/idiom/insult/other before. Whatsit mean? :2razz:

 

[Slippery Slope]

And just how would you become involved by being nearby someone who's praying out loud? Any examples?

Sitting at McDonalds and the family sitting next to me decide that a silent prayer before their meal isn't good enough, they feel the need to let everyone around know that they pray to god before eating. Is that any different than some jerk blabbing away on his cell phone?

Interesting attempt at correlation, but the giant in the story is not omniscient or omnipotent.

How do you know? The story doesn't say but it hints at it... sorta like the bible. :2wave:

There is no proof for you, perhaps. I have plenty of proof that God exists. However, for the most part this proof is subjective, mostly consisting of life experiences, personal observations, and more than a few adjustments to my worldview. My proof will not work for you and much of it won't work for anyone that isn't me. That is why I am one of the Christians who doesn't force my belief on others. I'm happy to talk about it when others ask, I enjoy a good debate such as this to increase my knowledge, but you'll never hear me say, "My way is the true way."

But that's not really proof is it?

I can't say I've ever heard that particular metaphor/idiom/insult/other before. Whatsit mean? :2razz:[/QUOTE]
It means, "if" doesn't mean squat.

 

[jallman]

Sitting at McDonalds and the family sitting next to me decide that a silent prayer before their meal isn't good enough, they feel the need to let everyone around know that they pray to god before eating. Is that any different than some jerk blabbing away on his cell phone?

And just why are you paying that close attention to other people in the restaraunt with you unless you were invited to do so?

 

[Captain Revolution]

No God who loved mankind would work so hard, to kill so many millions of innocent people, in so many cruel ways.

That, in addition to letting the people who pledge their love to God, to be chased out of the Holy Land, both as Jews and as Christian crusaders. And of course exterminated by the Nazis.

Thus proving that the loving God of the Bible is either a liar, or a lie.

LoL you are a fool.

First, you must know that we have Free Will. That means God doesn't control us like puppets on a string. If you want to go out and kill people it is on you, not God. God did not make the world this dangerous, we did.

Also, death is not evil when you have Faith. It only scares people like you who don't believe in anything other than your own selfishness. I have worked hard to live a life of love and service. If I catch a deadly virus or get hit by a school bus then so be it. I can die knowing that I was a good man and that is enough for me. I'll accept my judgement.

 

[Slippery Slope]

And just why are you paying that close attention to other people in the restaraunt with you unless you were invited to do so?

I guess you can't figure out what "out loud" means. *shrugs* It could mean that it was loud enough to interrupt the conversation I was having.

 

[jallman]

I guess you can't figure out what "out loud" means. *shrugs* It could mean that it was loud enough to interrupt the conversation I was having.

Was it? Or did you just notice someone was praying and go bat**** crazy about it like you do around here in the religion threads?

 

[Slippery Slope]

LoL you are a fool.

First, you must know that we have Free Will. That means God doesn't control us like puppets on a string. If you want to go out and kill people it is on you, not God. God did not make the world this dangerous, we did.

Also, death is not evil when you have Faith. It only scares people like you who don't believe in anything other than your own selfishness. I have worked hard to live a life of love and service. If I catch a deadly virus or get hit by a school bus then so be it. I can die knowing that I was a good man and that is enough for me. I'll accept my judgement.

Calling someone a fool exposes that you're not as "good" as you'd like to think.

First you must know that you can't have free will if god knows every action and outcome at the "creation".
If the world is dangerous, and if god made the world and if god made man, then, if the world is dangerous because of man it is gods fault.

 

[Slippery Slope]

Was it? Or did you just notice someone was praying and go bat**** crazy about it like you do around here in the religion threads?

I don't know, I was there but you probably know better.

 

[jallman]

I don't know, I was there but you probably know better.

I think your over the top protests lend credibility to my assumptions. I'm simply asking for clarification and drawing conclusions based on your behavior around here. Sorry if that offends you.

Actually...not really. Not sorry at all.

 

[First Thought]

Sitting at McDonalds and the family sitting next to me decide that a silent prayer before their meal isn't good enough, they feel the need to let everyone around know that they pray to god before eating. Is that any different than some jerk blabbing away on his cell phone?

So you felt offended? Annoyed? I suggest you simply smile and shake your head. It's really not that big of a deal.

 

[jallman]

So you felt offended? Annoyed? I suggest you simply smile and shake your head. It's really not that big of a deal.

Oh but it is if you are on a crusade to stamp out any mention of religion in public life because some nuns came by one day and barbecued your cat before feeding it to you while a deacon pee'd on your head.


What? I'm just trying to find some logical reason for his behavior and this is as good as any. :2razz:

 

[First Thought]

Oh but it is if you are on a crusade to stamp out any mention of religion in public life because some nuns came by one day and barbecued your cat before feeding it to you while a deacon pee'd on your head.


What? I'm just trying to find some logical reason for his behavior and this is as good as any. :2razz:

The most logical reason is fear. He is afraid of something he cannot understand, so he attacks it in defense and confusion. I know this because I was once like this.

 

[jallman]

The most logical reason is fear. He is afraid of something he cannot understand, so he attacks it in defense and confusion. I know this because I was once like this.

I don't understand Buddhism at all but I don't go around attacking it. As a matter of fact, I collect Buddhas because they amuse me to no end. Especially the Happy Buddha and the one with all the kids crawling all over him. They just make me smile.

 

[First Thought]

I don't understand Buddhism at all but I don't go around attacking it. As a matter of fact, I collect Buddhas because they amuse me to no end. Especially the Happy Buddha and the one with all the kids crawling all over him. They just make me smile.

Right, but Buddhism doesn't scare you. Buddhists don't use abrasive rhetoric, hate anyone or promote violence. Some(read: minority of stupid people) Christians do those things. Thus, his fear.

Well, being a Buddhist, I understand Buddhism pretty well. Here, let me give you this pamphlet about my savior.... :lol: