More gun control, less violent death - US data.[W:33]

[Threegoofs]

Nice article here, with all kinds of data and logic and facts.

The Geography of Gun Deaths - The Atlantic

Heres some of the key graphics for you all to ponder.

Look at that! Drug abuse and immigrants dont correlate with gun violence when you look at it at the state level.

What does correlate? Poverty. Legally carrying guns to school. Red States. Tighter gun laws (trigger locks, assault weapon bans, safe gun/storage requirements).

Isnt that interesting?

But the good one is looking at gun control laws. As has been painstakingly shown in this forum, developed nations with very tight gun laws have dramatically lower levels of gun violence than the USA. This is shown more clearly in the map below:

As the author describes the map above:

The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

Cant wait to hear all the dismissals of the data, complaints that this is a 'bait threat' because you really, really love guns, and accusations of my sekrit motivations and my claims are moronic because of (insert gun shill researcher here).

 

[Ancient Herald]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

So apparently, you don't believe in the adult's right to choose, and the right of the individual.

And you believe it's okay to punish all people for the sake of a bad few.

But you want to smoke dope and want the government out of your life.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

So apparently, you don't believe in the adult's right to choose, and the right of the individual.

And you believe it's okay to punish all people for the sake of a bad few.

But you want to smoke dope and want the government out of your life.

I choose not to have to worry about getting shot on the street.
I don't feel denying people the right to own SAMs is a punishment, do you?

Is the smoking dope crack just boilerplate because you don't have anything rational to say?

 

[soot]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

From the article:

The map above charts firearm deaths for the 50 states plus the District of Columbia. Note that these figures include accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes.

So we're going to consider the use of firearms in defense of one's own life and/or property to be "bad" things for the purposes of this lazy, lazy pseudo-research?

Yeah, no thank you.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

From the article:



So we're going to consider the use of firearms in defense of one's own life and/or property to be "bad" things for the purposes of this lazy, lazy pseudo-research?

Yeah, no thank you.

I guess some dead people are less important than other dead people, huh?

 

[soot]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

I guess some dead people are less important than other dead people, huh?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

If someone is killed as a result of their committing a crime then I would definitely consider them less important than someone who is murdered as the victim of a crime.

If someone is killed as a result of his or her own recklessness, whether it be as a result of recklessness in an automobile or recklessness with a firearm, I would definitely consider that death to be less important than the death of someone who meticulously observed all safety regulations, best practices, and availed him or herself with all necessary and appropriate safety equipment.

An interesting corollary here though, it would seem by your line of questioning that you don't recognize different degrees of importance in manner of death and focus solely on the loss of life.

Admirable on it's face, but dishonest to the core.

If it's truly the case, and knowing that more people die every year as a result of car accidents than as a result of firearms why is it that you fixate on firearms and start new threads every day related to firearm control/deaths/usage/safety/whatever and you never say anything about automobile deaths?

Are automobile deaths less important to you than firearm deaths?

Especially given that almost all automobile deaths are accidental whereas firearms deaths include self defense and suicide statistics?

You're being disingenuous at best in your single-minded obsession with firearms if "life" is really your primary concern.

Firearm deaths don't even crack the top ten leading causes of death in the U.S.

If you're really concerned about life why not pay more time and attention to things that are really killing Americans?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

I choose not to have to worry about getting shot on the street.
I don't feel denying people the right to own SAMs is a punishment, do you?

Is the smoking dope crack just boilerplate because you don't have anything rational to say?

again, you are demonstrating you are in favor of gun bans. and if gun bans worked, why was chicago so dangerous

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

again, you are demonstrating you are in favor of gun bans. and if gun bans worked, why was chicago so dangerous

Its called 'gun stores across the street'.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

If someone is killed as a result of their committing a crime then I would definitely consider them less important than someone who is murdered as the victim of a crime.

If someone is killed as a result of his or her own recklessness, whether it be as a result of recklessness in an automobile or recklessness with a firearm, I would definitely consider that death to be less important than the death of someone who meticulously observed all safety regulations, best practices, and availed him or herself with all necessary and appropriate safety equipment.

An interesting corollary here though, it would seem by your line of questioning that you don't recognize different degrees of importance in manner of death and focus solely on the loss of life.

Admirable on it's face, but dishonest to the core.

If it's truly the case, and knowing that more people die every year as a result of car accidents than as a result of firearms why is it that you fixate on firearms and start new threads every day related to firearm control/deaths/usage/safety/whatever and you never say anything about automobile deaths?

Are automobile deaths less important to you than firearm deaths?

Especially given that almost all automobile deaths are accidental whereas firearms deaths include self defense and suicide statistics?

You're being disingenuous at best in your single-minded obsession with firearms if "life" is really your primary concern.

Firearm deaths don't even crack the top ten leading causes of death in the U.S.

If you're really concerned about life why not pay more time and attention to things that are really killing Americans?

if you read all his posts on gun issues, especially when he first jumped into this forum, you will quickly see that public safety OR RATIONAL suggestions how to increase it are NOT his motivation. its all about bashing gun owners and trying to saddle legal gun owners with "dead children"

have you ever wondered why EVERY SINGLE gun basher on this forum-save perhaps a poster who is best described as a theological fascist-is a leftwinger. Its because the NRA is a major league opponent of left wing politicians--a position the NRA has held since the DEM party adopted GUN CONTROL in the 60s so they could PANDER to people who were hysterical about street crime and STAVE OFF NIXON's attacks that the DEMS were soft on black street criminals

GUN CONTROL was a facade the DEMS adopted to pretend they were doing SOMETHING about crime while not HURTING a major constituency of their party

and since then THE NRA has fought back against the DEM FACADE. and that makes the DEMS angry and most of the crap they push now is designed to punish the NRA and try to cost it money defending turf we already hold.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Its called 'gun stores across the street'.

but its ALREADY ILLEGAL for people to buy guns in those stores and possess them in CHICAGO

Gun banners always entertain the delusion that people willing to break all sorts of laws are going to somehow obey a NEW LAW

the only people who obey silly gun laws aren't the ones causing problems

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

BTW that 4.5 year old article makes a huge fail. It whines that states that voted for McCain have higher rates of gun violence than OBAMA states. YET the group with the most gun violence is the GROUP that voted for OBAMA at a rate of 95%. OOPS.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Nice article here, with all kinds of data and logic and facts.

The Geography of Gun Deaths - The Atlantic

<edit for brevity>

BTW that 4.5 year old article makes a huge fail. It whines that states that voted for McCain have higher rates of gun violence than OBAMA states. YET the group with the most gun violence is the GROUP that voted for OBAMA at a rate of 95%. OOPS.

Well hang-on though, before we so easily dismiss the geographical correlation -

The article got me thinking in terms of geography, so I Google "guns per capita per state", & "gun deaths per capita per state", to examine correlation.

Here's the links in each category that seemed to present the data in the form I required (one is the OP's link):

Gun Owners as a Percentage of Each State's Population

The Geography of Gun Deaths

I then took a quick glance at the top 5 gun owner states in relation to their gun deaths, and the bottom 5 gun owner states in relation to gun deaths - and I found a high degree of general correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths.

I then expanded my research from the top & bottom 5 gun ownership states, to the top & bottom 10, and the correlation seemed to hold.

To further perform a check & balance, I took the 5 gun ownership states on either side of the median (25 +/-5), and each one correlated to gun deaths in the middle range.

So from my little experiment here, I am definitely seeing a high positive correlation between gun ownership & gun deaths in per capita terms.

Take from it, what you may. I have no policy solutions, and only present the statistics. But it seems clear, if my data is accurate: more guns = more gun deaths (which makes intuitive sense to me).

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Well hang-on though, before we so easily dismiss the geographical correlation -

The article got me thinking in terms of geography, so I Google "guns per capita per state", & "gun deaths per capita per state", to examine correlation.

Here's the links in each category that seemed to present the data in the form I required (one is the OP's link):

Gun Owners as a Percentage of Each State's Population

The Geography of Gun Deaths

I then took a quick glance at the top 5 gun owner states in relation to their gun deaths, and the bottom 5 gun owner states in relation to gun deaths - and I found a high degree of general correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths.

I then expanded my research from the top & bottom 5 gun ownership states, to the top & bottom 10, and the correlation seemed to hold.

To further perform a check & balance, I took the 5 gun ownership states on either side of the median (25 +/-5), and each one correlated to gun deaths in the middle range.

So from my little experiment here, I am definitely seeing a high positive correlation between gun ownership & gun deaths in per capita terms.

Take from it, what you may. I have no policy solutions, and only present the statistics. But it seems clear, if my data is accurate: more guns = more gun deaths (which makes intuitive sense to me).

Given the fact that the only reason TD dismissed it is because he didn't like what it said, you really needn't to have bothered going through all that work.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

but its ALREADY ILLEGAL for people to buy guns in those stores and possess them in CHICAGO

Gun banners always entertain the delusion that people willing to break all sorts of laws are going to somehow obey a NEW LAW

the only people who obey silly gun laws aren't the ones causing problems

Looks like it doesn't make sense to have guns available with weak laws, I absolutely agree.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Looks like it doesn't make sense to have guns available with weak laws, I absolutely agree.

what kind of BS statement is that. you have yet to tell us what laws you want changed and Why

Why do you play these games if crime control is really what motivates you and its not baiting gun owners?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Well hang-on though, before we so easily dismiss the geographical correlation -

The article got me thinking in terms of geography, so I Google "guns per capita per state", & "gun deaths per capita per state", to examine correlation.

Here's the links in each category that seemed to present the data in the form I required (one is the OP's link):

Gun Owners as a Percentage of Each State's Population

The Geography of Gun Deaths

I then took a quick glance at the top 5 gun owner states in relation to their gun deaths, and the bottom 5 gun owner states in relation to gun deaths - and I found a high degree of general correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths.

I then expanded my research from the top & bottom 5 gun ownership states, to the top & bottom 10, and the correlation seemed to hold.

To further perform a check & balance, I took the 5 gun ownership states on either side of the median (25 +/-5), and each one correlated to gun deaths in the middle range.

So from my little experiment here, I am definitely seeing a high positive correlation between gun ownership & gun deaths in per capita terms.

Take from it, what you may. I have no policy solutions, and only present the statistics. But it seems clear, if my data is accurate: more guns = more gun deaths (which makes intuitive sense to me).

that didn't filter Illegal gun ownership with legal gun ownership

the fact is 80% or more of gun crimes are caused by people who cannot and do not own guns legally. for example, there was about ZERO legal handguns in Chicago among non-governmental citizens. yet the number of gun crimes was through the roof

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

if you read all his posts on gun issues, especially when he first jumped into this forum, you will quickly see that public safety OR RATIONAL suggestions how to increase it are NOT his motivation. its all about bashing gun owners and trying to saddle legal gun owners with "dead children"

have you ever wondered why EVERY SINGLE gun basher on this forum-save perhaps a poster who is best described as a theological fascist-is a leftwinger. Its because the NRA is a major league opponent of left wing politicians--a position the NRA has held since the DEM party adopted GUN CONTROL in the 60s so they could PANDER to people who were hysterical about street crime and STAVE OFF NIXON's attacks that the DEMS were soft on black street criminals

GUN CONTROL was a facade the DEMS adopted to pretend they were doing SOMETHING about crime while not HURTING a major constituency of their party

and since then THE NRA has fought back against the DEM FACADE. and that makes the DEMS angry and most of the crap they push now is designed to punish the NRA and try to cost it money defending turf we already hold.

Stomping your feet isn't going to make the reality that I don't really care about you or your guns that much compared to the Gettysburg's worth of deaths we see in the US *EACH YEAR*.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Stomping your feet isn't going to make the reality that I don't really care about you or your guns that much compared to the Gettysburg's worth of deaths we see in the US *EACH YEAR*.

see there you go again. Its almost pathological. stomping my feet. what idiocy. why is it that every gun banner on this board is a leftwinger? and since you fail to propose any concrete solutions I am going to note your comments about guns are designed to smear gun owners and crime control is just a facade you throw out

 

[Chomsky]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Given the fact that the only reason TD dismissed it is because he didn't like what it said, you really needn't to have bothered going through all that work.

Well, I wasn't out to make an argument, as much as to see what correlation if any, I could find, out of personal inquisitiveness.

that didn't filter Illegal gun ownership with legal gun ownership

the fact is 80% or more of gun crimes are caused by people who cannot and do not own guns legally. for example, there was about ZERO legal handguns in Chicago among non-governmental citizens. yet the number of gun crimes was through the roof

Yes, I believe you are accurate in that a local ordinance means little when next door to availability - all Chicago did was disarm (in terms of handguns) lawful citizens.

But to accurately see the feasibility of gun control, I believe we need to look at the national level. A glance at Canada or Europe gives a more telling picture, I think. Local jurisdictional ordinance means little if proximity allows easy access.

I'm probably about 85% O.K. with where we're at with guns today, though I think we may have slipped a bit over.

I support a reasonable interpretation of the 2nd, staunchly support the Castle Doctrine, but only support Duty to Retreat, rather than Stand Your Ground - the latter I find abominable. After supporting CCW earlier in my life, I'm having some reservations but accept it as the law-of-the-land, and am willing to see how it works out. I do not support open carry in general terms, at least in my local area - I realize some locales have a cultural tradition (out west), so it may be appropriate out there.

All the above being said, I feel in America the cat is out of the bag, and little can be done to put it back in. There's too many guns everywhere, and attempts at control, as we saw in Chicago, are counterproductive unless done nationally. But even then, I'm not sure any strong controls would accomplish much more than extrapolate the former Chicago situation (disarm the legal, while allowing access to the criminal) to national proportions.

I find the premise of "having so many guns that we all must have a gun to protect us against the other guy's guns" is an obnoxious & ludicrous situation, and it bothers and embarrasses me as an American. I'm even more bothered by the levels of violence & killing amongst my fellow Americans.

If I had the solution, I'd offer it.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Well, I wasn't out to make an argument, as much as to see what correlation if any, I could find, out of personal inquisitiveness.

Yes, I believe you are accurate in that a local ordinance means little when next door to availability - all Chicago did was disarm (in terms of handguns) lawful citizens.

But to accurately see the feasibility of gun control, I believe we need to look at the national level. A glance at Canada or Europe gives a more telling picture, I think. Local jurisdictional ordinance means little if proximity allows easy access.

I'm probably about 85% O.K. with where we're at with guns today, though I think we may have slipped a bit over.

I support a reasonable interpretation of the 2nd, staunchly support the Castle Doctrine, but only support Duty to Retreat, rather than Stand Your Ground - the latter I find abominable. After supporting CCW earlier in my life, I'm having some reservations but accept it as the law-of-the-land, and am willing to see how it works out. I do not support open carry in general terms, at least in my local area - I realize some locales have a cultural tradition (out west), so it may be appropriate out there.

All the above being said, I feel in America the cat is out of the bag, and little can be done to put it back in. There's too many guns everywhere, and attempts at control, as we saw in Chicago, are counterproductive unless done nationally. But even then, I'm not sure any strong controls would accomplish much more than extrapolate the former Chicago situation (disarm the legal, while allowing access to the criminal) to national proportions.

I find the premise of "having so many guns that we all must have a gun to protect us against the other guy's guns" is an obnoxious & ludicrous situation, and it bothers and embarrasses me as an American. I'm even more bothered by the levels of violence & killing amongst my fellow Americans.

If I had the solution, I'd offer it.

lots of those who want to restrict guns only see people wanting to own guns for self defense when there are millions upon millions of competitive and recreational shooters. The value of that is never really counted by the Banoids or Graboids in office or their supporters in the Public. We get crap like "your hobby costs children their lives" crap but the fact remains, shooting is as popular or more popular than most other adult sports in terms of participation.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

lots of those who want to restrict guns only see people wanting to own guns for self defense when there are millions upon millions of competitive and recreational shooters. The value of that is never really counted by the Banoids or Graboids in office or their supporters in the Public. We get crap like "your hobby costs children their lives" crap but the fact remains, shooting is as popular or more popular than most other adult sports in terms of participation.

As a former paper puncher, I would never want to take that joy from my fellow citizens.

.22 RFs can be a lot of cheap Saturday afternoon fun!

 

[Visbek]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

Nice article here, with all kinds of data and logic and facts...

While I support reasonable gun controls: As far as I know, the correlations specifically between gun control laws and homicide rates / firearm deaths are not particularly strong. We need more than relatively basic correlations to draw any sort of conclusions.

In fact, it kinda seems like no one really knows what drives crime rates, homicide rates and suicide rates. What we need is more and better research.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

While I support reasonable gun controls: As far as I know, the correlations specifically between gun control laws and homicide rates / firearm deaths are not particularly strong. We need more than relatively basic correlations to draw any sort of conclusions.

In fact, it kinda seems like no one really knows what drives crime rates, homicide rates and suicide rates. What we need is more and better research.

what is "reasonable gun controls"

I support penalizing those who harm others or threaten others with firearms. I don't support much, if any, laws that restrict lawful people from obtaining or possessing firearms

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

lots of those who want to restrict guns only see people wanting to own guns for self defense when there are millions upon millions of competitive and recreational shooters. The value of that is never really counted by the Banoids or Graboids in office or their supporters in the Public. We get crap like "your hobby costs children their lives" crap but the fact remains, shooting is as popular or more popular than most other adult sports in terms of participation.

And the fact remains, we have a 911 worth of fatalities every month.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: More gun control, less violent death - US data.

And the fact remains, we have a 911 worth of fatalities every month.

and constantly saying that, when most of those are suicides or felons killed by other felons doesn't do a damn bit of good