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Mommy, is that a cropduster?

Bin Forgotton

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Keeping a eye on goverment is a very enlighnting pastime.
Are you ready for your SHOT? Or maby spraying? Kinda like being cropdusted. But not to worry, BIG BROTHER LOVES you.
The proposed legislation will strip
Americans of the right to a trial by jury if harmed by an experimental or
licensed drug or vaccine that they are forced by government to take whenever
federal health officials declare a public health emergency.
Nicknamed "Bioshield Two," the legislation is being pushed rapidly through Congress without time for voters to make their voices heard by their elected representatives
It is a sad day for this nation when Congress is frightened and bullied into allowing one profit making industry to destroy the seventh Amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing citizens their day in court in front of a jury of their peers," said Barbara Loe Fisher, president of NVIC. "This proposed legislation, like the power and money grab by federal health officials and industry in the Homeland Security Act of 2002 and the Project Bioshield Act of 2004, is an unconstitutional attempt by some in Congress to give a taxpayer-funded handout to pharmaceutical companies for drugs and vaccines the government can force all citizens to use while absolving everyone connected from any responsibility for injuries and deaths which occur. It means that, if an American is injured by an experimental flu or anthrax vaccine he or she is mandated to take, that citizen will be banned from exercising the Constitutional right to a jury trial even if it is revealed that the vaccine maker engaged in criminal fraud and negligence in the manufacture of the vaccine."
http://www.nvic.org/PressReleases/101905Burrbill.htm

Bush also called on manufacturers around the world to work to produce a vaccine and to boost the supply of a spray that may help stop the spread of the disease.
http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Oct/04-506929.html
 

UtahBill

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It is a responsible government that takes action to limit the spread of disease, even if a few people die as a result. Or would you rather have your entire family die of a disease because your child played with the kid next door whose parents never got him innoculated. Some people are carriers, they don't get sick themselves, but spread disease all over the place. Do their rights preclude the rights of everyone else?
Life is a gamble, and a few of us are unlucky. That is the way it is. Nothing any of us can say or do will change that.
 

Bin Forgotton

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UtahBill said:
It is a responsible government that takes action to limit the spread of disease, even if a few people die as a result.
It means that, if an American is injured by an experimental flu or anthrax vaccine he or she is mandated to take, that citizen will be banned from exercising the Constitutional right to a jury trial even if it is revealed that the vaccine maker engaged in criminal fraud and negligence in the manufacture of the vaccine.
"That's responsible goverment. To tie citizens hands completely, even in the event of criminal fraud?
Or would you rather have your entire family die of a disease because your child played with the kid next door whose parents never got him innoculated.
I'd rather the 1918 flu wasen't recreated, and held in a level 3 lab at the U of Wisconsin.http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1585977,00.html

But that aside, Innoculations aren't magic bullets.
There are many that believe that the common flu innoculation does nothing to prevent the flu, and may in fact cause it in many people.
You don't mind if you and your familiy are forced to be used as gunia pigs for some serum that hasen't been proven yet? Boy, thats what I call trust in your goverment.
Some people are carriers, they don't get sick themselves, but spread disease all over the place. Do their rights preclude the rights of everyone else?
lligal testing of unproven antidotes on the public could kill many, and create even more carriers.
Life is a gamble, and a few of us are unlucky. That is the way it is. Nothing any of us can say or do will change that.
You don't appear to think its that much of a gamble. Sounds like your pretty confident we don't need to be concerned about this.
 

ngdawg

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While I believe in innoculating generally and indeed followed the recommended protocols when my children were small, forced governmental innoculations is scary and the fact that now a bill is going through that would basically remove responsibility from the drug manufacturers is scarier still. It conjurs up images of the worst of Fountainhead, Anthem, 1984, et al.....
/me shudders
 

cnredd

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ngdawg said:
While I believe in innoculating generally and indeed followed the recommended protocols when my children were small, forced governmental innoculations is scary and the fact that now a bill is going through that would basically remove responsibility from the drug manufacturers is scarier still. It conjurs up images of the worst of Fountainhead, Anthem, 1984, et al.....
/me shudders
This sentence was found within the first article sourced...

The proposed legislation will strip Americans of the right to a trial by jury if harmed by an experimental or licensed drug or vaccine that they are forced by government to take, whenever federal health officials declare a public health emergency.

I equate this with the seatbelt law...There are many more ways to die in an accident without a seatbelt than there is with one, thus the law to wear one is passed...

That doesn't mean that the family of someone who died WITH one on could sue the car company that had it installed or the government that implemented it forceful use...

I don't think anyone walks around saying, "If it wasn't for those damn seatbelt laws, my wife would still be alive today!"...Even if there was, it would still be wrong because without a seatbelt, the chances are good that she would've died anyway...

Same with this...if there was such a pandemic that health officials had to declare an emergency, someone getting the vaccination with a risk of dying is worth much more than not getting a vaccination and A) increasing the risk of dying anyway...B) becoming a carrier to the flu and spreading it even worse...

From a government standpoint, if things got so bad that a national emergency would have to be declared, they would have two choices...

Give vaccines, in which "X" number of people will die...

Not give vaccines, in which the number of people who would die will probably be exponentially larger than "X"...

I think that choice is clear...
 

ngdawg

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What would be the protocol for an 'emergency'? Influenza has killed more people in the last century than car accidents in the same time frame...is there an outline for what constitutes this and what lines of authority it must go through before being a forced issue? I'm supposed to get flu shots because of a history of flu-related pneumonia, but reports of the shot making one as sick as the bug itself convinces me not to. The anthrax scare was literally in my back yard but I wasn't concerned of infection...and luckily, there was no 'law' in place that would have forced us to get innoculated.
I truly get the comparison to the seatbelt law, but when it comes to some pharmaceutical company whipping up some quick smallpox vaccine on the QT and then the government saying 'you MUST have this done NOW', I'm a bit more hesitant to that than I am to buckling up.
 

cnredd

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ngdawg said:
What would be the protocol for an 'emergency'? Influenza has killed more people in the last century than car accidents in the same time frame...is there an outline for what constitutes this and what lines of authority it must go through before being a forced issue? I'm supposed to get flu shots because of a history of flu-related pneumonia, but reports of the shot making one as sick as the bug itself convinces me not to. The anthrax scare was literally in my back yard but I wasn't concerned of infection...and luckily, there was no 'law' in place that would have forced us to get innoculated.
I truly get the comparison to the seatbelt law, but when it comes to some pharmaceutical company whipping up some quick smallpox vaccine on the QT and then the government saying 'you MUST have this done NOW', I'm a bit more hesitant to that than I am to buckling up.
I would be nervous about taking a vaccination, too, but I have two points...

1) If the other option is not taking a vaccination for a disease that is so bad that health officials declared a state of emergency...I'm taking it without hesitation, nomatter how quickly it was "whipped up"...

2) Keep in mind that a pharaceutical company doesn't make things out of thin air...They need to have cultures of the disease first before even attempting to find a cure...This bird flu is adept to mutate...That is why every disease in the world isn't curable...They change on the fly...The rapidity of the spreading of the disease dictates the amount of time that the testing on a disease starts and the amount of time a state of emergency would be declared...

If this was to become a pandemic in 10 years, the pharmaceutical companies would have a ton of time to test, restest, work out the kinks, and provide a safer vaccine...

But what if it became a pandemic in the next three months?...That doesn't give them much time to "whip" something up, does it?...How could you hold them accountable for attempting to create something in such a short period of time?...

If I were a pharmaceutical company, and I kept getting sued because I had to quickly come up with something in a deleriously small timeframe, I'd say "F.U.!...The next time I'm not even gonna bother...I'll just 'whip' something up for our own company and their relatives, and the rest of you can go scratch."...
 

ngdawg

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Those points are why I wonder what checks are in place? I don't know your age, but at the beginning of the Vietnam conflict, President Kennedy used his authority to bolster our troop force...when Johnson became president, he was left with Kennedy's unfinished business and used HIS authority to further our presence even more...as a result of this major fiasco, there are now checks and balances between the White House and Legislature before a decision to send troops abroad is made...we never declared war on Vietnam-it was Kennedy's unwaivering desire to kill Communism that got us further involved in it, increasing the military presence there twofold and more..
I know this isn't a great example of using presidential power as it pertains to this but it's the only one I could come up with at the moment.
There should be this kind of action taken when there is absolute certainty that to not do so would be devastating and even then, made with overwhelming consensus that the choice is the only choice.
 

UtahBill

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I guess the key part of this is, in a national health emergency normal rules will be suspended. Right now some companies have quit making vaccines due to potential lawsuits, so what do we do if a pandemic occurs? Pray?
and then hold your breath waiting for God to heal us? We have to do what we can, and hope for the best.
 

Bin Forgotton

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Ya don't have to worry about forced vaccinations anyway. They just crop dust ya.
 

Fantasea

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Bin Forgotton said:
It means that, if an American is injured by an experimental flu or anthrax vaccine he or she is mandated to take, that citizen will be banned from exercising the Constitutional right to a jury trial
It seems to me that the big losers will be the parasites at 1-800-LAWYERS and those of that ilk.
 

Bin Forgotton

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Fantasea said:
It seems to me that the big losers will be the parasites at 1-800-LAWYERS and those of that ilk.
Do you work for the pharma industry? It always amazes me, that as citizens are having thier constitutional rights taken away, the applaud big goverment for doing so.
 

UtahBill

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Bin Forgotton said:
Do you work for the pharma industry? It always amazes me, that as citizens are having thier constitutional rights taken away, the applaud big goverment for doing so.
Are you an ambulance chasing attorney? I am a citizen with rights as well, and I have a right to be protected from my nutjob neighbor who sees a conspiracy in everything and won't get her children innoculated.
Google Typhoid Mary. Her rights were violated, big time, but dammit, she was a big time carrier of Typhoid! The rights of the many supercede the rights of the few when it comes to our very lives. :shock:
 

AlbqOwl

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Likewise when it comes to the 'rights' of terrorists over the 'rights' of the innocent to not be tortured, blown up, decapitated, raped, or mutilated. If making a terrorist extremely uncomfortable is necessary to save the innocent, then so be it. Do any Americans, including the President, advocate torture? Of course not. But discomfort is not necessarily torture. And if we take torture off the table as an interrogating tool, what incentive does a terrorist have to be cooperative? Incarceration at the hands of Americans is being confined to a 5-star hotel to him. But if we can save a single innocent soul by scareing the pee-waddin' out of the terrorist by threatening anything, and they know that technically we can legally do it, then go for it.
 

Bin Forgotton

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Bush does advocate torture. Problem is, anyone will say anything you want under torture. Plenty of false confessions. And the small matter of it being against the Geneva Convention.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536

And as far as forced inoculation goes, if you all want be be sprayed, go stand outside. I don't . I do not trust the government. They have not earned my trust. New Orleans was a example. It wasn't bungled, it was planned. They have destroyed Posse Commiatus . I believe this bird flu thing is a hoax.
http://mercola.com/blog/2005/oct/19/rumsfeld_to_profit_from_avian_flu_hoax
Not that there won't be a pandemic of some type in time. Our goverment is so corrupt it reeks. And you honestly expect them to care about your welfare.
 

Bin Forgotton

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AlbqOwl said:
Likewise when it comes to the 'rights' of terrorists over the 'rights' of the innocent to not be tortured, blown up, decapitated, raped, or mutilated. .
This threads not about the US occupation of Iraq.
 

UtahBill

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Bin Forgotton said:
Bush does advocate torture. Problem is, anyone will say anything you want under torture. Plenty of false confessions. And the small matter of it being against the Geneva Convention.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536

And as far as forced inoculation goes, if you all want be be sprayed, go stand outside. I don't . I do not trust the government. They have not earned my trust. New Orleans was a example. It wasn't bungled, it was planned. They have destroyed Posse Commiatus . I believe this bird flu thing is a hoax.
http://mercola.com/blog/2005/oct/19/rumsfeld_to_profit_from_avian_flu_hoax
Not that there won't be a pandemic of some type in time. Our goverment is so corrupt it reeks. And you honestly expect them to care about your welfare.
All large organizations are corrupt, some even plan to be on a daily basis, some get that way as they accumulate too much money and power, others are almost non-corrupt, but you can't trust all the employees to be perfectly honest all the time.
If you think the USA government is corrupt, compare it to others and you will see we come out smelling pretty good. There are some smaller countries out there doing better than us, but what other LARGE country can compare to us?
Name just one, please.:smile:
 

Bin Forgotton

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UtahBill said:
All large organizations are corrupt, some even plan to be on a daily basis, some get that way as they accumulate too much money and power, others are almost non-corrupt, but you can't trust all the employees to be perfectly honest all the time.
So why to many people want to forgive or look the other way over corruption,(its just always been that way)and at the same time practicly thank the corrupt goverment(fascist) for taking rights and freedoms from them?
If you think the USA government is corrupt, compare it to others and you will see we come out smelling pretty good. There are some smaller countries out there doing better than us, but what other LARGE country can compare to us?
Name just one, please.:smile:
Hmmm, England, with 4.5 million cameras in London?. We are Imperilist and hated in most the world. Our standard of living has been good here, but is declining. So our our rights and freedoms. Seems people will accept anything to be safe, but safe is not nessasarly free. You will see a FAST disappering of the middle class in the comming yrs (faster with "terriost" attacks). So we should be thinking of the country our children will be growing up in, not the country we once had. If your of the ilk that the US should just take whatever it needs from others to maintain our lifestyle , just say so, the debate will stop. But even with those Imperialst exploits, your lifestyle will not remain the same.
 

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Bin Forgotton said:
Do you work for the pharma industry? It always amazes me, that as citizens are having thier constitutional rights taken away, the applaud big goverment for doing so.
Try telling that to the nearly fifty million victims of "legal" abortions whose lives were sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

Isn't the ultimate act of taking away the ultimate human right, the right to life?
 

UtahBill

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Bin Forgotton said:
So why to many people want to forgive or look the other way over corruption,(its just always been that way)and at the same time practicly thank the corrupt goverment(fascist) for taking rights and freedoms from them?

Hmmm, England, with 4.5 million cameras in London?. We are Imperilist and hated in most the world. Our standard of living has been good here, but is declining. So our our rights and freedoms. Seems people will accept anything to be safe, but safe is not nessasarly free. You will see a FAST disappering of the middle class in the comming yrs (faster with "terriost" attacks). So we should be thinking of the country our children will be growing up in, not the country we once had. If your of the ilk that the US should just take whatever it needs from others to maintain our lifestyle , just say so, the debate will stop. But even with those Imperialst exploits, your lifestyle will not remain the same.
Why? Selfishness is not discouraged enough. Selflessness is not encouraged enough. Our financial magazines place our super rich on pedestals and ask us to worship them. Result to that is many of us will do anything to get to the top, even tho there is seldom any happiness there. Power is a drug that I do not understand. A certain amount of money I do understand, but beyond a few million, what is the point? I am still working on my first, may even make it in 10 or 15 years if the real estate market keeps climbing. Hell, my house alone has more than doubled in only 11 years.
The Brits have given up a lot for a basic level of support. I had a guest here once from there, a smart young man with musical talents as well. He wanted to move here but could not find someone to sponsor him. He told me that as soon as he and his friends graduated from their equivalent of High School, they were encouraged to get on "the dole".
I think we were headed in that direction, but welfare reform had turned the tide a bit, I hope.
As far as Imperialism goes, I don't think so. I think it is more like our leaders are still "flush with success" in winning the cold war. Communism is essentially dead, so we need a new enemy to fight. Seems we have decided to pick up where the Popes left off and get involved in a new crusade against the Muslim world. That is certainly how many of them view it.
 

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Bin Forgotton said:
And as far as forced inoculation goes, if you all want be be sprayed, go stand outside. I don't . I do not trust the government. They have not earned my trust.
Perhaps you just never knew. However, a couple of generations ago, a common sight in every neighborhood were kids wearing braces on their useless legs; victims of polio. Have you seen any lately?

Most families could number, among their near relatives, a child who died from a disease that has since been eradicated

Small pox, formerly a world scourge which killed untold millions, are words unknown to most people.

I have no doubt that you, yourself, have been the beneficiary of forced innoculation in your early life.

Or, perhaps you're correct -- simply "bin forgotten".
New Orleans was a example. It wasn't bungled, it was planned.
The Alabama and Mississippi coastal areas took a heavier blow from Katrina than did New Orleans. The reason that their toll in human losses was less is because the state and local governments ordered everyone out and enforced the order. Whe Katrina called there was no one home.

On the other hand, although they could have easily been bussed out (remember all of those school busses that were drowned two days later when the levee failed) but the Mayor said they could stay if they wanted to and the Governor acquiesced. Nearly all of the deaths and injuries occurred during the height of the storm and were among those who didn't leave.
They have destroyed Posse Commiatus .
Perhaps you don't understand the concept of 'posse commitatus'.
I believe this bird flu thing is a hoax.
http://mercola.com/blog/2005/oct/19/rumsfeld_to_profit_from_avian_flu_hoax
Not that there won't be a pandemic of some type in time.
You are, of course free to believe as you wish. You are not obliged to be correct.
Our goverment is so corrupt it reeks. And you honestly expect them to care about your welfare.
The governors of Alabama and Mississippi are Republicans; the Governor or Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans are Democrats. Think about that when you complain about Katrina.

As an aside; just this morning, I heard an interesting discussion by Lt. Gen. Steven Blum who is the commander of all National Guard forces, country wide. He noted that although the area blasted by Katrina is the size of Great Britain, the media concentrates its coverage as if viewed through a straw, focussing not on a state, not on a city, but focussing solely on a small neighborhood.
 
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