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Mission Trips

Knowledge=power said:
This is just a ridiculous thing to say, Peter.

What about the Greeks? Christianity wasn't even around yet. As for present day nations, there are plenty of nations which do not have a large Christian population, but are successful.
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God blesses those he wishes to bless. USA is a power like none other. I believe we're divinely blessed. However, the more secular we become, the less of that blessing we will have.

But this has all been foretold. The day will come when you guys will win, the world will be desolate, and there will only be a few Christians left. It's meant to be that way.

Then Christ will come again.
 

Most Christians don't know their own religion, sadly.

What you've just given is a proof that they are wrong.

Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher. His message is what matters. Just saying the name "Jesus" and believing he existed isn't going to save anyone's soul. The body of Christ is his message, and that's what needs to be received.

Jesus taught a lot of things, but take this one: Love your enemy. Anyone who is capable of loving their enemy is one of Jesus' own, whether they know him by name or not.

I'm sure there are African tribesmen out there who have never heard of Christ, but act more in line with Christ's message than many Christians. That said, of course people who have never heard of Jesus can go to heaven. It's about the content of their character.

Bringing the message of Christ to these tribesmen is beneficial for the same reason you want to teach them math, you want to give the ones who are naturally inclined to Christs teaching to have access to it, to be able to study, read, and reflect on their own lives.
 

Agreed, so long as they're doing it to help someone. I'm not so forgiving if they're out to score points with an imaginary friend. Why they do it matters. Help for the sake of helping is the only valid reason to do it.
 
Cephus said:
Agreed, so long as they're doing it to help someone. I'm not so forgiving if they're out to score points with an imaginary friend. Why they do it matters. Help for the sake of helping is the only valid reason to do it.
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They're doing what they believe is right. I guess to a bigot like you, that doesn't matter, though.
 

Perception always matters, and all humans perceive differently, based on time and space.
 

What gets me Peter, is if someone is truly a good person and has great characterstics, even if he has or has not heard of Jesus and Christianity, what would be the difference? If you can go to heaven for being a good person, but you never heard of Jesus - Why cant you go if you are truly a good person, and you have heard of Jesus, but are just another religion? Or an atheist? Or agnostic?
 

This, to me, is a home run.
 
Knowledge=power said:
This, to me, is a home run.
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I came up with this paradox when I was 12. I asked my pastor, and my youth pastor for an answer. They were both dumbfounded. For about another decade I asked every holy-man I could find, including Army chaplains, and nobody ever had an answer for it. It's one of the most massive contradictions in christianity. I'm glad I shed all of that BS.
 

It also shines a glaring light on the fact that if God had the unlimited power he supposedly has, we wouldn't be questioning any of this. He could enter our minds and clear it all up - even tribal people who are still living very primitively by today's standards.
 

It would be fantastically easy for the Christian God to prove his existence to both followers and non followers alike; it would take far less effort than confusingly recreating himself as a regular person to be killed to redeem innocent people from his own punishment. All it would take is for every individual to come to the (coincidental or not) independent recognition of Jesus at some point before their death. Missionaries would be unnecessary, and such a coincidence that truly connected every human on Earth through Jesus could not be explained as anything other than the work of God.

Instead, the best proof we have for the Christian God is the conflicting word of less than a third of the world's population and a few unoriginal stories that read exactly as we would expect stories to read if written by people with a Bronze Age understanding of the world. Not exactly compelling. If the Bible had contained a few fundamental laws of science (God's supposed creation) that tremendously advanced society, I'm sure there would be a few more believers.
 

I think you can. To understand what I'm saying, you have to separate the message from the messenger in your mind as two different concepts.

The message is what can get you in to heaven. It's the things that Christ taught. But hey, the message isn't unique to Christ. I'm sure others have taught similar things about love, forgiveness, etc.

When Jesus says the only path to heaven is "through me," what he really meant was through his message. Like any good teacher. The body of Christ is the message.

I just think reading Christ's sermons helps lay it all out in a clear, understandable way.
 

You have to "believe" in Heaven first, then it all has some sort of meaning.......................
 
Why would you assume that they would all go to Heaven before they had a choice?

I've always thought that a Bible could be a great advantage to helping one live a better life and achieve a good afterlife, like a road map to spiritual success. Many folks who were lost found hope and a new life in the Bible. I think when Jesus says no one can get to Heaven except through him, I don't believe it's necessarily saying the words "I believe in Jesus", but being good, loving people of integrity and moral courage.

 
JC Callender said:
Did Japan draft their own constitution after WW2?
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Japan had the "luxury" of being conquered by one country,the US, reasonably intelligent military commanders running the army of occupation and the bonanza of having an occupying power too "ascared" to admit that it was an empire because "Jesus wouldn't like that".....................go figure......................
 
Would you prefer that God took away our free will and made everything perfect?

And the Bible may not be compelling to you, but it has been to billions over the years. Who has been written about and discussed more than Jesus?

 
JC Callender said:
Would you prefer that God took away our free will and made everything perfect?
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Well... We'd first have to establish the existence of free will in the first place. This is a question most philosophers of religion have tackled so I'm interested to hear your answer. How can a God of omnipotence grant free will and yet know with certainty your future actions and decisions?

And the Bible may not be compelling to you, but it has been to billions over the years. Who has been written about and discussed more than Jesus?
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Arguments from popularity and arguments based on other logical fallacies never really appeal to me, though I won't go so far as to say that popularity can't be considered evidence of truth. However, it is still a fallacy to claim that popular belief in Jesus constitutes proof of his claims of holy omnipotence. It's very likely that this middle aged carpenter was just a very convincing and charismatic public speaker in a time when self proclaimed prophets were common. But before we examine the evidence that Jesus was indeed God and truly performed miracles, can you explain why I should believe the followers of Jesus any more than I should believe the followers of the prophet Muhammad, or of the first bodhisatva Sidhartha Gautama, or of the extant followers of any number of historical prophets?
 
I don't know the answer to your first question, I only know that I seem to be able to choose freely. If a parent gives a child the freedom to make choices, in most cases, the parent has the ability to influence the outcome. Now imagine if that parent was perfect, with the possibility to work within or without the confines of time and certain dimensions.

In regards to your second paragraph, I'm assuming since Jesus is the most talked about figure in history that he wasn't just any common prophet. I don't think most prophets claimed to be the Son of God, which would normally totally disqualify a person from any rational discourse. Have you ever wondered why so many smart and well respected people believe in Him, including many, if not most, US Presidents? When I first read the New Testament, I wondered why anyone would make it up. Do you know why? What did Jesus gain from all of it if only a mere mortal? What did Paul gain? Instead of a scam, it seemed to me like a very compelling story for why and how we should love others. For example, "Love thy neighbor", or the Golden Rule, I think is the best basic law to ultimately ensure a happy and well run society.

I don't know what to tell you about the other religions as I haven't studied them all. Christianity has been the best philosophy I've found and I haven't seen any compelling evidence to get me to switch to another, unless you would care to share it with me.


 

This paradox is a product of secular thought permeating into Biblical truth. Let me explain.

It is important to understand that God doesn't owe salvation to anybody. It is strictly mercy and grace on Gods part since there is nothing about us that merits saving. We are ALL morally corrupt and slaves to sin with no capability to even CHOOSE our own salvation. Our acceptance of Christ is ENABLED by God alone. He does not sit idly by and hope that someone will take Him up on His offer. He has GUARANTEED it.

With that being said, it is very hard to understand that truth in our culture in which we have so many freedoms,choices, and opportunities. Our mindset is one of self made men based on motivations, drive, and ambition. Therefore it becomes plausible for us(yes even Christians) to assume that since God is just and fair, surely He saves someone who does not have the opportunity to even choose the gospel.

The reality is that God has chosen people as the vehicle to spread the salvation He has promised and enabled. His guarantee of salvation creates joy, humility, and confidence in His followers to go out like "workers before the harvest".

That is why evangelism and making disciples as Jesus commissioned is central to the Christian message.
 

So you're a calvinist. Some people were created specifically by god to be damned to eternal hellfire. I guess it's their fault they were born into a remote village with no contact with the outside world. Christians will rejoice in heaven while they burn in hell.

Fact is, god is the one who damned humanity, and who made the punishment for not knowing him eternal hellfire. You as a calvinist are a particularly sadistic brand of christian. I really don't know how you can sleep at night.
 

I understand how you can feel a disservice is being done but with all due respect there are a couple of issues:

1. Christians like your relatives didn't write the rules for Christianity, God did. As such they need to obey him and not those who think Jesus came up with a bad idea. Mark 16:16-:15.
2. Although you might not, chances are your relatives really believe this. If they honest to goodness believe in their hearts that without faith in Jesus the people they are reaching are facing an eternity in hell, advancing the gospel along with temporal material help is one of the most caring things they could ever do.
 
Stopandthink said:
It is important to understand that God doesn't owe salvation to anybody.
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No, what is important to understand is that you're just spouting a bunch of unproven nonsense. You cannot demonstrate that God exists or that you have any understanding whatsoever of God's wishes, thoughts or desires, even if he does exist. The idea that you can authoritatively explain the mindset of God is about as ridiculous as thinking you can explain the mindset of Bigfoot. This is why blind faith is so utterly absurd. It's just making crap up and stamping "faith" on the result.
 

The Christian worldview is actually quite rational as it has given me answers on most every important question I have in life. But no there is nothing I can say to you to prove Gods existence nor can I explain the mindset of God. I can only repeat what He already has made known.
Now, maybe you can share with me your worldview and quickly explain why it does not require faith. Thanks.
 

To be completely honest with you, there is a free will/sovereignty of God concept here that I probably have more questions than answers for. What I do know is that God expresses deep concern for the lost and commands His followers to go find "His sheep". It is our responsibility to use what we have been given to reach as many as we can. THAT keeps me awake at night.
 
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