Miracles probably do happen

[humbolt]

False. I have clearly (posted directly to you, please dont post lies, thanks) and on many occasions talked about how all humans are hardwired similarly, and how they all are subject to:

Lies
Hallucinations
False memories
Optical illusions
Delusion

*especially during and after hypoxic episodes

So please don't state that lie again.

Lies? I offered proof of events that can't be explained. As I said, you've offered anecdotal suppositions without any proof that any or all apply. Some of that which you dismissed as claims were in fact verified to be accurate. None of what you claim to be the case has been verified. What you've offered is faith that a explanation will eventually be found which conforms to your beliefs.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Lies?

Yes. When you said i could not offer explanations, after already having done so directly to you, that was a lie. So I repeated them, to clear the air.

I also gave a nice explanation of your con and what is wrong with it. And of why nobody has to explain those events under the assumption that they occured as described.

One only has to explain why people would make such extraordinary claims.

That's the position you have put yourself in, given that you have no evidence or documentation of these events outside of anecdotal accounts.

 

[Galactic Spin]

166,000 people die every DAY. Every day.

"Hey, check out these 5 stories spanning 40 years!"

The rational person doesn't even waste time addressing that. But I guess that's what a discussion board is for.

 

[Galactic Spin]

I offered proof of events that can't be explained.

First, no you didn't.

Second, the events of people making extraordinary, magical claims are very easily explained.

 

[humbolt]

Yes. When you said i could not offer explanations, after already having done so directly to you, that was a lie. So I repeated them, to clear the air.

I also gave a nice explanation of your con and what is wrong with it. And of why nobody has to explain those events under the assumption that they occured as described.

One only has to explain why people would make such extraordinary claims.

That's the position you have put yourself in, given that you have no evidence or documentation of these events outside of anecdotal accounts.

Yeah. You're great, because you say so. However, verification of some of the events described was given. None of what you've offered has been verified by anybody, anywhere

 

[humbolt]

First, no you didn't.

Second, the events of people making extraordinary, magical claims are very easily explained.

You can deny it, but the study and review established it. By your own metric, that is the standard. Until you can offer substantiated studies verifying what you claim, you have nothing. That very standard is repeated ad nauseam in climate studies all the time. Are you suggesting the standard changes depending on the subject, or are you just talking out of your nether regions?

 

[Galactic Spin]

However, verification of some of the events described was given.

False. No "verification" was presented outside of personal anecdotes.

Evey word of what I said has been verified millions of not billions of times. People are all subject to:

Lying
Hallucinating
Being misinformed
Adopting false memories
Suffering delusions

Every word you are saying is 100% backwards and wrong.

 

[nota bene]

Same for you. We don't have to explain how the brain survived for 45 minutes without oxygen. We only have to explain why someone would claim that happened.

Which is very simple. That person is confused, is misinformed, or is lying.

No, the laws of physics were not suspended in favor of your friend's brother.

I've stated the medical facts. The EMS's weren't "confused," the doctors weren't "misinformed," and nobody is lying. I realize that waking up after 45 minutes of oxygen deprivation isn't possible. From the moment I heard, I realized that Mike was assuredly brain-dead. But he is not. I remain astounded, but the facts are what they are. This is why the doctors used the word "miracle," and no, they obviously cannot explain the impossible either.

You say that the explanation is "simple," but you omitted one option, that the person is telling the truth.

 

[Galactic Spin]

You can deny it, but the study and review established it

False agan. The "study " only compiled and rebroadcasted personal anecdotes. You really are not getting this. But, it's hard to convince a person who has been fooled that he has been fooled.


That's part of what being "fooled" means.

 

[Galactic Spin]

I've stated the medical facts.

No. You have only stated what you were either told were the medical facts or your misunderstanding of what you were told.

You guys really need to pause and understand this distinction.

No, the laws of physics were not suspended in favor of your friends brother.

The EMS's weren't "confused," the doctors weren't "misinformed,"

If either claim a human brain came through 45 minutes of oxygen deprivation and still functioned, then yes... they were one of those things, or they were simply mistaken.

No, the laws of physics were not suspended for your friend's brother.

.

 

[Galactic Spin]

You say that the explanation is "simple," but you omitted one option, that the person is telling the truth.

No I didn't. The only criterion for someone being truthful is that they actually believe what they are saying.

Being misinformed or mistaken clearly covers that.

 

[DCCougar]

but the facts are what they are.

Apparently not.

 

[humbolt]

False. No "verification" was presented outside of personal anecdotes.

Evey word of what I said has been verified millions of not billions of times. People are all subject to:

Lying
Hallucinating
Being misinformed
Adopting false memories
Suffering delusions

Every word you are saying is 100% backwards and wrong.

And what I've referred to is none of the above. A report of an actual, confirmed event is not a delusion, hallucination, a false memory, or lying, because the event has been verified as claimed.

What is clear here is that the mere suggestion of anything beyond a temporal cause for events beyond our understanding creates hysterical responses from those who believe there is no force beyond human understanding in the universe. Meanwhile, we can't get accurate weather forecasts. It's amazing, and the hubris required to maintain such a view is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Quag]

Neither does it say what you so desperately want it to. I can say that some of the events recorded are physically impossible, and that they do fit the objective definition of "supernatural" tge Oxford dictionary supplies. So far your response has been a lot of conjecture, but nothing with evidence to support it. And you're busy calling others intellectually lazy....

Um no Im not desperate about anything, though I am glad you admit your vaunted study doesnt support your claims

But you are right you can say whatever crap you like, however that doesnt make it true.

 

[pinqy]

I can agree with that, except for the contradiction inherent in "we don't know" while ruling out the possibilities that implies.

How does “we don’t know” imply anything? Inventing a cause which is impossible to confirm or eliminate and which cannot be connected to the effect in any way is pointless.

In short, inventing supernatural explanations to otherwise unexplained phenomena adds absolutely nothing to our understanding and there is zero reason to do so.

 

[humbolt]

How does “we don’t know” imply anything? Inventing a cause which is impossible to confirm or eliminate and which cannot be connected to the effect in any way is pointless.

In short, inventing supernatural explanations to otherwise unexplained phenomena adds absolutely nothing to our understanding and there is zero reason to do so.

Well, in another short, you're presuming that nothing greater than human understanding exists.

 

[Galactic Spin]

A report of an actual, confirmed event is not a delusion, hallucination, a false memory, or lying, because the event has been verified as claimed.

Um, yes it often is. All that has been confirmed is that pelle have relayed an anecdote that has been repeated. How are you not getting that? People can share the same mistake or hallucination or delusion.

By your logic, all the religions are true, even though they contradict one another. Because hey, lots of people swear they are true and can relate anecdotes to "prove" it!

What is clear here is that the mere suggestion of anything beyond a temporal cause for events beyond our understanding creates hysterical responses from those who believe there is no force beyond human understanding in the universe.

There is nothing at all hysterical about my responses, and this charlatan's attempt to dismiss my points by characterizing them instead of arguing against them is just part of your con. It's an old con. Older than you are.

Much more hysterical is to dismiss the fallibility of the human mind as an explanation for humans making extraordinary, magical claims. And that's what you are doing.

 

[Jacksprat]

Well, in another short, you're presuming that nothing greater than human understanding exists.

If there is something greater than human understanding, how could a human understand it?

 

[pinqy]

Well, in another short, you're presuming that nothing greater than human understanding exists.

No, I am not. I am saying that all we have is human understanding based on current knowledge. Therefore it is useless to attribute causes that fall outside of that. Understanding and knowledge both expand and grow, so many things beyond current understanding/knowledge will eventually be known/understood, and some won’t. But there’s no way to tell the difference.

What do you think is useful about arbitrarily concluding a supernatural cause?

 

[humbolt]

If there is something greater than human understanding, how could a human understand it?

Humans can't. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Jacksprat]

Humans can't. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What does that which is beyond our understanding look like? If it is "beyond," what justifies positing its existence?

 

[Galactic Spin]

Humans can't. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

These overly general arguments won't help you. You just tried to grant credibility to an infinite number of nonsensical ideas.

 

[humbolt]

No, I am not. I am saying that all we have is human understanding based on current knowledge. Therefore it is useless to attribute causes that fall outside of that. Understanding and knowledge both expand and grow, so many things beyond current understanding/knowledge will eventually be known/understood, and some won’t. But there’s no way to tell the difference.

What do you think is useful about arbitrarily concluding a supernatural cause?

It's not only not natural, it's physically impossible for a comatose person to see, from a physically impossible perspective, anything that happens in a surgical suite in which they are a patient. What such patients have said they saw was confirmed by the medical professionals in the suite at the time. The patient lacked any physiological means to do such a thing. People don't see actual events without some physiological or other apparatus to do so. I consider that a supernatural event, because it's outside of the physical laws we recognize that we presume govern human experience. We also presume, particularly with applied digital theory, that mathematics proceeds infinitely in all directions simultaneously. There are proofs. However, they offer no human understanding of infinity. We live in time and space, and both are very real constraints that hobble understanding.

I'm all for research and understanding. We could find some area(s) of the brain that allows for such events. I doubt it, but if you don't look, you won't find anything at all. We just shouldn't be surprised if nothing found explains such things.

 

[devildavid]

It's not only not natural, it's physically impossible for a comatose person to see, from a physically impossible perspective, anything that happens in a surgical suite in which they are a patient. What such patients have said they saw was confirmed by the medical professionals in the suite at the time. The patient lacked any physiological means to do such a thing. People don't see actual events without some physiological or other apparatus to do so. I consider that a supernatural event, because it's outside of the physical laws we recognize that we presume govern human experience. We also presume, particularly with applied digital theory, that mathematics proceeds infinitely in all directions simultaneously. There are proofs. However, they offer no human understanding of infinity. We live in time and space, and both are very real constraints that hobble understanding.

I'm all for research and understanding. We could find some area(s) of the brain that allows for such events. I doubt it, but if you don't look, you won't find anything at all. We just shouldn't be surprised if nothing found explains such things.

These people do not actually see anything at all. Medical professionals cannot confirm any such thing. The supernatural is imaginary.

 

[devildavid]

Humans can't. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But you claim to understand it by calling it supernatural.