Minority Rights

[DebateChallenge]

Perhaps a few but these will produce mainly crude shotguns, which you could buy anyway

Did you check the link I posted on zip guns? I will post it again. Improvised firearm - Wikipedia
Yes some such produced guns are crude but there are also some that are quite high quality. And not just shotguns, rifles too and handguns of course. And with today's technology of 3D printers, some of which print in metal, it is becoming easier and easier to make high quality guns.

What the UK had was way less gun owners so public support for a ban was easier

Exactly. Part of having a big gun culture is having lots of gun owners which the USA has and which the UK doesn't and never did have.

Most American don't have guns, but even so the high number of gun owners, who have so much invested in their guns, is the real challenge to overcome

I would say its an impossible challenge to overcome. And as for most Americans not being gun owners, newsflash- the gun rights crowd does not just consist of gun owners. There are people who don't own guns but still believe strongly in gun rights.

Why do you think that's not an issue with the British people, why do you think they have so much confidence in their political system ?

Maybe because they're foolish.

I did of course mean privately owned guns of the citizens like in the USA
And not general war like WWII

Surely you could understand that since we were specifically talking about privately owned guns, and not the military ?

And its because of privately owned guns as to why we haven't had any tyrants in the first place.

Then give me an example...specifically where the people "on the outside" wasn't a liberating army like D-Day.

That's what I was talking about, liberating armies.

 

[danielpalos]

As always you dodge the question, so here is is again:

I've asked you several times and you've each time failed to give a single possible action they could take (except establishing a base in power stations).



What actions could/would the militia take to "execute the laws of the union"
I think you mean enforce, not execute Btw

lol. There is no appeal to ignorance of our supreme law of the land in any conflict of laws.

 

[Rich2018]

Did you check the link I posted on zip guns?

A lot if not most of the higher quality home made guns are made by a knowledgeable individual, not some kind of assembly line to replace the estimated 400-450 million guns in the USA

A lot if not most use pre-fabricated kits or are reactivated guns/replica guns

I'd ban replica's too and severely limit deactivated guns to certain "classic" models.

Part of having a big gun culture is having lots of gun owners which the USA has and which the UK doesn't and never did have.

Yes seizing/collecting the bulk of them will be a big task, but doable

Maybe because they're foolish.

LOL all of them ?

For how many years ?

Ask yourself the question again: why do you think the British have so much confidence in their political system ?
This is the country that stood alone against Hitler remember?

And its because of privately owned guns as to why we haven't had any tyrants in the first place.

So why has tyranny only replaced democracy on one occasion - and that was peculiar circumstances
Why do the people of Britain and the countries of Western Europe feel no need for guns to prevent tyranny
When have privately owned guns a tyranny? Note, not the guns of an army in wartime

That's what I was talking about, liberating armies.

So privately owned guns haven't overthrown a tyranny - jut invading armies like the allies on D-Day, 6th June 1944.

I suppose you'll cite 1776 in the days of muzzle loading muskets.
Not the same now, as Americans would find if they were opposed by a real tyranny.

 

[Rich2018]

lol. There is no appeal to ignorance of our supreme law of the land in any conflict of laws.

You've refused to explain what an "appeal to ignorance is"
I don't think you know

And you have no idea what actions an armed militia could take to negate the need for a war on terror.
QED: The use of the militia in fighting such a war is ZERO


I've learned that when pressed you always refuse to give examples of what you believe illustrates your ignorant claims.

 

[DebateChallenge]

A lot if not most of the higher quality home made guns are made by a knowledgeable individual, not some kind of assembly line to replace the estimated 400-450 million guns in the USA

A lot if not most use pre-fabricated kits or are reactivated guns/replica guns

I'd ban replica's too and severely limit deactivated guns to certain "classic" models.

If the kind of gun control you talk about comes to pass (which it won't) many more people would study up on how to make high quality homemade guns and the illegal market for such guns would flourish. Although guns today might be more complicated than they were 200 years ago they're still quite simple to make and while the complexity of guns has increased so has manufacturing methods which make producing such stuff easier. Today we have 3D printers among other highly effective manufacturing tools and devices where you don't have to own a factory to be able to make complicated stuff.

Yes seizing/collecting the bulk of them will be a big task, but doable

Before they could even do that they would have to have popular enough support to pass the necessary legislation for such a seizure to take place, you yourself have admitted to that. There will never be popular enough support. Even though most Americans don't own guns not all Americans who are for gun rights are necessarily gun owners. Certainly not enough Americans would be for the kind of gun control you propose for it to ever pass.

LOL all of them ?

For how many years ?

Ask yourself the question again: why do you think the British have so much confidence in their political system ?
This is the country that stood alone against Hitler remember?

As I said, they've been lucky so far.

So why has tyranny only replaced democracy on one occasion - and that was peculiar circumstances
Why do the people of Britain and the countries of Western Europe feel no need for guns to prevent tyranny
When have privately owned guns a tyranny? Note, not the guns of an army in wartime

As I said, they've been lucky.

So privately owned guns haven't overthrown a tyranny - jut invading armies like the allies on D-Day, 6th June 1944.

I suppose you'll cite 1776 in the days of muzzle loading muskets.
Not the same now, as Americans would find if they were opposed by a real tyranny.

Yes, it would not be the same now which is why modern Americans should have access to modern weapons, not just muskets.

 

[danielpalos]

You've refused to explain what an "appeal to ignorance is"
I don't think you know

And you have no idea what actions an armed militia could take to negate the need for a war on terror.
QED: The use of the militia in fighting such a war is ZERO


I've learned that when pressed you always refuse to give examples of what you believe illustrates your ignorant claims.

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

 

[Rich2018]

If the kind of gun control you talk about comes to pass (which it won't) many more people would study up on how to make high quality homemade guns ...

There's no evidence that will happen

Before they could even do that they would have to have popular enough support to pass the necessary legislation for such a seizure to take place...

Yes, a constitutional amendment to replace the 2nd amendment, ratifield by at least 38 states
So such a seizure would have popular support

As I said, they've been lucky so far.

What is your evidence that it is down to luck ?

As I said, they've been lucky.

What is your evidence that fortune has/is playing a part ?

...it would not be the same now which is why modern Americans should have access to modern weapons, not just muskets.

You include tanks, artillery, drones, aviation, air power, APC's...that's not counting a supply tail. Do you know how many men are in combat support for every fighting man ?

Do you really think a citizen militia stand against a modern army ?

They'd be lucky to stay alive.

 

[Rich2018]

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Again, you have no idea what actions an armed militia could take to (in your words) "execute the Laws of the Union"
QED: The use of the militia in fighting such a war is ZERO


So what EXACTLY could a militia do ?

Please give precise activities.



I've learned that when pressed you always refuse to give examples of what you believe illustrates your ignorant claims.

 

[danielpalos]

Again, you have no idea what actions an armed militia could take to (in your words) "execute the Laws of the Union"
QED: The use of the militia in fighting such a war is ZERO


So what EXACTLY could a militia do ?

Please give precise activities.



I've learned that when pressed you always refuse to give examples of what you believe illustrates your ignorant claims.

It is all covered by federal and State statutes.

 

[DebateChallenge]

There's no evidence that will happen

There's no evidence it won't.

Yes, a constitutional amendment to replace the 2nd amendment, ratifield by at least 38 states
So such a seizure would have popular support

And that's the thing, getting the popular support. In the USA it will never have popular enough support as I keep pointing out.

What is your evidence that it is down to luck ?

What's your evidence it isn't?

You include tanks, artillery, drones, aviation, air power, APC's...that's not counting a supply tail. Do you know how many men are in combat support for every fighting man ?

Do you really think a citizen militia stand against a modern army ?

They'd be lucky to stay alive.

The 2A covers arms not armaments, so all small arms should be available to the common citizens.
Although they ultimately lost, the Confederates sure gave the Union army a hard fight during the Civil War.

 

[Rich2018]

It is all covered by federal and State statutes.

Really ?

What do those statutes say the armed militia should do EXACTLY


They don't - they just say the militia should exist. Not one word on how they should perform their task.
They don't even say which side of bed a militia should get up on, let alone how they should fight crime ans security issues like the War on Drugs.

 

[danielpalos]

Really ?

What do those statutes say the armed militia should do EXACTLY


They don't - they just say the militia should exist. Not one word on how they should perform their task.
They don't even say which side of bed a militia should get up on, let alone how they should fight crime ans security issues like the War on Drugs.

Well regulated militia follow the orders of their superior officers.

 

[Fledermaus]

Perhaps a few but these will produce mainly crude shotguns, which you could buy anyway.

Why do you insist on being wrong in this case?

 

[Rich2018]

There's no evidence it won't.

So there is no evidence at all to support any conclusion you came to

In the USA it will never have popular enough support as I keep pointing out.

Yes, you've benefited us with your opinion.

Frequently without any evidence to support it.

What's your evidence it isn't?

You made the assertion. You therefore need to demonstrate it

An absence of evidence for something is NOT proof of the contrary

You may as well say god exists because no-one can prove he doesn't

Generally, you can't prove a negative Btw....so you'll need more that "there isn't evidence it isn't"

The 2A covers arms not armaments, so all small arms should be available to the common citizens.
Although they ultimately lost, the Confederates sure gave the Union army a hard fight during the Civil War.

They had an army - and it was a war. Now how could a bunch of militiamen stand up against a modern army ?


Arms is short for armaments Btw

 

[Rich2018]

Well regulated militia follow the orders of their superior officers.

So you have an armed militia assembled - as authorized by state and national constitutions..

What steps would you have their leaders order them to take EXACTLY, in order to fight the War on Drugs ?

 

[DebateChallenge]

So there is no evidence at all to support any conclusion you came to

Here is your evidence.
YouTube
YouTube
YouTube

Yes, you've benefited us with your opinion.

Frequently without any evidence to support it.

The USA has a HUGE gun culture, as I keep mentioning. And it doesn't consist of just gun owners.

They had an army - and it was a war. Now how could a bunch of militiamen stand up against a modern army ?

Through force of numbers.

 

[danielpalos]

So you have an armed militia assembled - as authorized by state and national constitutions..

What steps would you have their leaders order them to take EXACTLY, in order to fight the War on Drugs ?

Our war on drugs is not Constitutional; only well regulated militia are necessary. Eventually, even the right wing would understand that.

 

[Rich2018]

Here is your evidence.

But what is your evidence that criminal organizations will supply America's demand for guns ?

How many such guns are made in the UK ? (according to UK police they are mostly reactivated gun, and activated former replicas)
How many such guns are made in Australia (to replace those ones banned) ?
How many such guns are made in Japan ?


Home made guns will be made, but most will resemble shotguns that you can buy anyway

The USA has a HUGE gun culture...

So the task for law enforcement is bigger in the US than it was for he UK

Through force of numbers.

Explain

The human wave went out of fashion in the Korean war.

 

[DebateChallenge]

But what is your evidence that criminal organizations will supply America's demand for guns ?

How many such guns are made in the UK ? (according to UK police they are mostly reactivated gun, and activated former replicas)
How many such guns are made in Australia (to replace those ones banned) ?
How many such guns are made in Japan ?

I don't know how many such guns are made in the UK, Australia, or Japan, but neither of those countries have much of a gun culture unlike the USA.

Home made guns will be made, but most will resemble shotguns that you can buy anyway

Its just as easy to make a homemade handgun as it is a homemade shotgun.

So the task for law enforcement is bigger in the US than it was for he UK

It would be too big a task for them.

Explain

The human wave went out of fashion in the Korean war.

The number of citizens in the USA by far outnumbers the police and the armed forces.

 

[danielpalos]

Perhaps transform a branch of service - say the Marine Corps - into a Spanish speaking branch ?

Officers would naturally have to speak English as well.

Since naval infantry is already being used; how about, Naval Dragoons?

 

[Integrityrespec]

Hi my name is Michael McMahon. A common argument against gun control is the threat of a tyrannical government. But is there any other defensive countermeasure?

The problem with having freely available guns without any background check is that armed civilians cannot protect themselves against snipers. With any gun such as a handgun or a shotgun it's possible to ambush a person and attack from behind or shoot from a concealed position. Unless one intends to spend the day darting to cover around every corner with a binoculars I fail to see how they can defend themselves. We literally don't have eyes on the back of our heads to guard against any sneaky assassin.

I was thinking one way to defend against a murderous government would be to use a military version of proportional representation. So, if a parliamentary party has 30% of the vote they'd have complete 30% control of the military. If another party has 60% of the vote they'd then be granted 60% command of the military with their own autonomous military bases and units. And so on. This would give minorities a better organisational and logistical capacity to deter or defect and thwart a tyranny.

Obviously hate speech laws can be used to prevent any violent and extremist candidate or group from running for office to prevent them gaining military representation.

What would you think of this idea?

Stupid idea.

 

[Rich2018]

Since naval infantry is already being used; how about, Naval Dragoons?

I don't know if I'd call the USMC "naval infantry" since they have artillery, planes and tanks etc.

In the UK the term was used for Royal Navy sailors operating on land in an infantry role


But despite what they refer to themselves as...the USMC already has a cavalry unit:


8 Photos Of The Marine Corps’ Last-Standing Cavalry Unit - Task & Purpose

 

[Rich2018]

I don't know how many such guns are made in the UK, Australia, or Japan, but neither of those countries have much of a gun culture unlike the USA.

So what ?

So for all you know the number of home made guns being illegally made in those countries is close to zero.
So what evidence do you have that it would be any more in the USA ?

Its just as easy to make a homemade handgun as it is a homemade shotgun.

Nope, it's far easier to make a crude shotgun than it is a pistol

It would be too big a task for them.

Absolutely

The number of citizens in the USA by far outnumbers the police and the armed forces.

So what ?

 

[DebateChallenge]

So what ?

So for all you know the number of home made guns being illegally made in those countries is close to zero.

And for all you know the number of home made guns in those countries could be much higher.

So what evidence do you have that it would be any more in the USA ?

Did you see the videos I linked? People are already making homemade guns with 3D printers and by other means. If guns are banned as you fantasize about imagine how the number of homemade guns would drastically jump.

Nope, it's far easier to make a crude shotgun than it is a pistol

So now you're an expert on homemade guns?

Absolutely

So you agree that going around seizing guns would be too big a task for US law enforcement.

So what ?

The number of armed citizens by far outnumbers the police and armed forces, that's how they would stand up against a modern army.

 

[Michael McMahon]

In very divided countries there’s a debate about consociational democracy versus majority rule democracy. However it’s clearly important to try to integrate people in any system.

Consociationalism - Reut Institute